What made Eastern GO Under?

[FD109]

Re: FD

Dood, if I knew my history, I wouldnt be asking probably a very reliable source. You! Didn't mean to insinuate anything. When exactly was the pilot strike and when did the IAM strike occure? I didnt think that they were that far appart, but I really dont remember (could be sometimers disease).

I personally appreciate your cander with this situation as at least you have facts and can present them. Most people just spout off some political slander because it supports their purpose. Although I still like Bush, you have got me thinking on the other side of the fence. I am really supprized that a congressional investigation was not launched especially after he vetoed that bill. Things that make you go HHHMMMMMM!!

There was no pilot strike. The only strike during this period was the IAM. The IAM strike began in March 1989.

I've been going HHHMMMMMMMMM for a long time now!! Thanks for your comments.

 

[TurboS7]

FD109, you obviously were there, I am editing this post as I buzzed thru them not looking at the profiles to see who was saying what.This is my observation you can fill in the blanks for the guys. ALPA got burned real bad by Lorenzo at CAL and they didn't want to come up smelling bad whe the EAL thing came up. They didn't vote to strike and the pilot's contract had been voted on and radified. The decision was to cross or not to cross the IAM picket line, that happened by pilot calling their buddy pilot and saying are you going to work or not. One pilot said yes and a few of his buddies went, other said h..ll no and they didn't cross. Others took the woosy way out and called in sick. Bottom line is that the EAL's pilots future was ruined by the very union that was voted on to protect their jobs, just to make a national statement. If ALPA would have said go back to work after just a couple of weeks EAL would still be here today. UAL promises to be the next big mess and this time I get to just sit back and watch.

 

[Typhoon1244]

FD109, for someone who wasn't there or went through it you seem to have a bunch of facts that came right from all of ALPA's total bs.

Uh, Turbo? FD109 was there. Don't you think he sounds too well-informed to be a casual observer? Take a look at his profile; he's flown just about every airplane E.A.L. had between '66 and '89.

UAL promises to be the next big mess and this time I get to just sit back and watch.

Really? Were you at Eastern or Continental? And exactly which side of the picket line were you on?

 

[TurboS7]

I must admit you are right, guess I should have looked closer, I just wizzed through the post after getting back from a 6 day trip. My post is a little zippy but I would like to know how the EAL guys feel about ALPA now.

 

[Tim47SIP]

So I'm not very bright!

OK, now I'm confused (which is probably normal).

I am sorry, but I am totally ignorant concerning this issue and would like some clarification.

FD stated:"There was no pilot strike. The only strike during this period was the IAM. The IAM strike began in March 1989. "

Turbo stated:"They didn't vote to strike and the pilot's contract had been voted on and radified. The decision was to cross or not to cross, that happened by pilot calling their buddy pilot and saying are you going to work or not. One pilot said yes and a few of his buddies went, other said h..ll no and they didn't cross. Others took the woosy way out and called in sick."


Was there an official strike called? FD says no and Turbo implies that a contract was ratified but some pilots later decided that they didn't like the contract so they stayed home. Were these two seperate incidents or did this happen under Lorenzos control? When was the strike that all of the scabs came from? If the work stopage was done after a signed contract and no official strike was called, then why are the guys that went to work concidered scabs? Thanks! Tim.

 

[FD109]

TurboS7,

First of all, I sure thought I was there; maybe I should pinch myself to see if I wake up from a terrible nightmare. ..... No, I pinched myself. Nothing has changed. I was there. It was real.

I had a little trouble following you (you sound tired, get some sleep), but your posting made it sound like EAL's pilots honoring the IAM picket line was some kind of a grass roots thing where people called each other to decide what to do individually. At least I think that was what you were trying to say.

Actually, we as a group voted (reluctantly) to honor the picket line for reasons that I have stated here probably too many times already. I don't remember the exact percentage who voted to honor the IAM picket line, but it was in the high 90% range. And I'm sure you understand that when that many pilots vote to honor an IAM picket line there has to be an overwhelming reason.

As far as ALPA BS, I'm not sure exactyly what you are referring to, but the information about the EAL mess in my postings came from court records, EAL corporate publications, an external audit of the company, and even data presented by Lorenzo's own attorneys to the bankruptcy court.

As far as the references to George Bush's actions and recommendations from the NMB, those are a matter of public record and did not come from ALPA.

 

[FD109]

Re: So I'm not very bright!

Tim47SIP,

Look at my posting in reply to Turbo.

There was no pilot strike. The pilots did vote to honor another union's picket line. The decision to do this was based upon a majority vote of the EAL ALPA members through normal ALPA channels.

EAL's pilot contract had been ratified well before this happened, and honoring the IAM picket line had absolutely nothing to do with the pilot contract.

It wasn't an unorganized, grass roots thing. Rightly or wrongly we made the decision based on a majority vote of the members.

In answer to your other question, anyone who crossed the line after the majority voted to honor it is by definition a SCAB.

This whole thing was a terrible mess that I hope other pilot groups never have to face.

Let me make one final observation: Don't let your managements turn the SCOPE vs. RJ issue into something that puts you into a situation where you are manipulated into having to decide "whether or not to cross."

All of you (mainline and regional) get together and work it out to everybody's benefit so the companies can't use it against you. If you don't, history may well repeat itself, and certainly not to your benefit.

 

[TurboS7]

Your question Tim brings up some valid points.

1)a SCAB is someone that crosses a picket line set up by a union usually part of the AFL-CIO-independent unions can strike also.
The question is a person a scab if they cross a line to get to work period no matter what their job??those on the extreme end say yes. When I ran my own independent freight business I had to drive through many Teamster picket lines, but I had to take care of my customers and that was my bottom line. I just did what I had to do. Some moderates say that a person is a scab when they cross a picket line to replace the job you as a striker has just left. Those left just don't care what you did as long as you pay your union dues.

The EAL issue is interesting as the EAL pilots technically left their jobs, yes they had a radified contract and Lorenzo was caught by the short hairs when they left. The union thought they had him but it was technically an illegal wildcat strike by the union.It was never voted on by the union or the flight attendants. Technically the pilots left their jobs so Lorenzo replaced them with technical SCABS because they crossed an illegal picket line.Consequently most EAL pilots feel that ALPA used them just to prove a point. Some left their jobs to keep EAL from going to Lorenzo, though their efforts were for a respectable cause the issue was that Lorenzo legally had control of all the assets of EAL. To that the EAL pilots only have Borman and a midnight meeting to thank.

The whole thing was a nightmare situation a destroyed a wonderful airline full of wonderful people. How many technical EAL scabs are there????200 golden scabs(they never stopped working) 600 crawl backs(those that came back after a while, as far as I am concerned they saved the airline or destroyed it depending which viewpoint that you have)The rest were made up of 1000 new hires that made it to the line. There were twice that many that never made it through the training. One thing that EAL did that I thought was nasty was that once the union hinted for the guys to come back they hired anything and anybody to fill the slots. The working people of EAL some felt the pilots really screwed them and did everything to keep the guys that left from coming back.

The solution would have been to call all the guys back and let senority rule. That means that 5000 would have been on furlough but better to do that and save the airline.How do I know all this the ex-chief pilot works where I do now, along with input from many others. A part of history left America,I just hope that it doesn't happen again to another airline.

 

[Typhoon1244]

FD109 says ALPA voted to honor the IAM line. TurboS7 says they didn't, they just walked. I wish you guys would make up your minds.

I know an easy way to clear it up, though: FD109, since you were an ALPA member and Eastern pilot, tell us, was there an official vote by the ALPA MEC to honor the IAM picket line?

 

[FD109]

ALPA

TurboS7,

I forgot to answer one question you asked.

How I feel about ALPA now?

ALPA is neither good nor bad. ALPA is what its members make of it.

One thing is certain, were it not for ALPA or some other instrumentality that provides bargaining power, pilot working conditions and pay would certainly be worse and lower than they are.

Even non-union companies pay more because of ALPA--either to keep ALPA out or because ALPA has kept the average and median pay higher than it would otherwise be.

Is ALPA perfect? Absolutely not.

Would I vote for ALPA representation if I were employed by a non-union carrier? Absolutely.

One final comment: It has been an axiom for years, that those pilots who complain the most about ALPA are those who never go to meetings; never know what is going on; and never bother to try to fix any of the problems they are complaining about.

Sounds almost like the typical American voter.

 

[TurboS7]

The vote happened after the walkout not before.

 

[FD109]

Your question Tim brings up some valid points.

Turbo, you are passing on some real BS now. I don't know who gave you your information, but it is wrong.

A federal court ruled that EAL's pilots had every legal right to honor the picket line. That was within the first 10 days of the IAM strike. In hindsight, I wish that court had ordered us back to work, BUT IT DID NOT.

This was not a wildcat strike or a grass roots action.

And Turbo, we DID vote. Whoever told you we did not is probably just trying to justify something he or she did.

 

[FD109]

The vote happened after the walkout not before.

Baloney, the vote was several months before the strike. I thought you said there was no vote.

 

[FD109]

FD109 says ALPA voted to honor the IAM line. TurboS7 says they didn't, they just walked. I wish you guys would make up your minds.

I know an easy way to clear it up, though: FD109, since you were an ALPA member and Eastern pilot, tell us, was there an official vote by the ALPA MEC to honor the IAM picket line?

Absolutely, yes. I certainly voted and it might surprise you to find out that I voted NO because I thought we had a better chance to fight Lorenzo from the inside. However, I would never sell out my friends and colleagues by crossing the line.

The initial vote was for all members in good standing and then by the MEC. Both were positive and the membership vote was in the high 90% range.

You would be amazed at the stories the SCABS come up with to justify why they crossed the picket line. The only one I didn't hear was "My dog ate my ALPA card.

 

[trainerjet]

And Turbo, we DID vote. Whoever told you we did not is probably just trying to justify something he or she did.

FD109,

Perhaps it is Turbo that is trying to justify what he did.