What is the status of the ALPA De-certification vote at US Airways?

[ALGFLYR]

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Sure did. Him and his buddy Trainer 8 sure think they're one of the boys now, don't they?

PHXFLYR

Are you saying you have me on your "ignore" list???

I feel honored that you would think you cannot carry on a conversation with me. I am one of the few posters that does not flame everyone in sight. I ignore (in my mind) all the fames and hatred being thrown around, but seriousily listen to coherent posts and arguments presented here. If I have a different opinion, I state it from my point of view. And unless I'm called out specifically, I never participate in the fighting between the Easties and Westies....

And with that said, if I really am on your ignore list... Where on that list am I??? Since I'm going for a seat grab, I want to be near the TOP of that list! At least I could be senior on SOME list....

 

[Freight Dog]

For others such as my friend that was hired in 1986 and never sat a day of furlough at airways it probably comes into play for him. You accuse him of a seat grab but look at it from his point of view. He WAS a Captain, but under nic he is junior to a 2000 hire, as it stands he will NEVER make it back to the left seat. So for him he does much better if the airlines remain seperate even under the current LOA.

That's a big bummer about your friend. But here's a little newsflash: he worked for a real sh*tty carrier, represented by fellow USAirways pilots who flushed his pension, pay, scope down the crapper.

If he was a narrowbody FO with 2 decades of LONGEVITY, it means he DID NOT HAVE SENIORITY to hold captain in any kind of equipment therefore why should he be entitled to a captain slot post-merger when his SENIORITY couldn't hold it pre-merger?

Seems to be that East needs to be edumacated on differentiating seniority from longevity.

 

[PositiveRate]

ALG,

F-me?? Classy. You've got it all wrong. I am angry. Not at you specifically, though. I take serious issue with a couple items, though.

---You were not hired by either mainline carrier, so when you come on here talking about how easy it would be to change contractual language to LOS upgrades, you're supporting a viewpoint that $hits on the entire AWA group. How am I supposed to take that?

---USAPA is a seat grab - it is just as bad as scabbing. You don't have to agree with me - it is what it is and you can explain it away any way you want. There are 1700+ pilots who will be damned if they ever pay a dime to that organization, though. The USAPA drive has been the most foolish waste of time for all of us...while we battle over past wrongs and grudges, we are wholeheartedly missing an opportunity to raise the professional bar back towards where it was...something that would help our other 60,000+ union brothers in their respective battles with management in addition to improving the QOL East and West.

A vote for USAPA is a vote for true civil war and a vote that will cement our position at the bottom of the industry (what...for spite??!!).

To Kerosene and the likes - I really don't know what to say. You have earnest beef with ALPA, but your blame is entirely misplaced. Much of your concern is with issues that have been plagueing every other major carrier (outsourcing, anti-labor post 9/11 movement). The concessions you took would have been much worse if left to be imposed by a court. APA has done no better protecting against this as ALPA national, bytheway. The only independent successes at a pax carrier post 9/11 is SWAPA.

Your local leadership and their hardline positions are what have left you out to dry. Why you think that would be any different with a new union is beyond me. All USAPA will be is more money from your pocket for FAR less career protection. Wait untill you get sick or have some issue where the full resources of ALPA are standing at wait to work solely to save your job - you will have none of that with USAPA.

Your naievite that "how could it be any worse" will end with any issue requiring a union intervention to save your career...I promise you that.

Your stupidity to think it couldn't be any worse is a position that willfully desires to strip career protections from the AWA group and your fellow US Airways pilots.

You are a fool if you think this is the right path. The chance to walk the right path started over 2 years ago, and no matter how many bright neon signs were placed in front of the noses of your leader pointing you back to the right path, you guys continued to march to your drum only. You are now paying the price with lower wages, disgusting work rules AND an active drive to bring the rest of us to your miserable level.

There was a large amount of empathy for the US Airways pilots from the entire AWA group...it's unfortunate that 18 yrs pre-merger was bottom of the list. That empathy is completely gone and you guys can piss off for all I care as it is quite clear you are dead-set on self destruction and want to take as many innocents down with you in the process.

 

[PositiveRate]

"For others such as my friend that was hired in 1986 and never sat a day of furlough at airways it probably comes into play for him. You accuse him of a seat grab but look at it from his point of view. He WAS a Captain, but under nic he is junior to a 2000 hire, as it stands he will NEVER make it back to the left seat. So for him he does much better if the airlines remain seperate even under the current LOA."


How is this not a seat grab? YES it is unfortunate that a 1986 hire was at the bottom of his pre-merger seniority list.

What you're saying is that - look at it from his view - he feels justified doing whatever it takes to 'get his' back and salvage his career. This is a SEAT GRAB attempt from 1700+ pilots who were unwitting partners in this mess. It is not our burden to bear for him to get his career back. And it is not his right to willfully harm the AWA group in an attempt to do so.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

That's a big bummer about your friend. But here's a little newsflash: he worked for a real sh*tty carrier, represented by fellow USAirways pilots who flushed his pension, pay, scope down the crapper.

If he was a narrowbody FO with 2 decades of LONGEVITY, it means he DID NOT HAVE SENIORITY to hold captain in any kind of equipment therefore why should he be entitled to a captain slot post-merger when his SENIORITY couldn't hold it pre-merger?

Seems to be that East needs to be edumacated on differentiating seniority from longevity.

Why should the AWA guy have a Captain slot post merger when his seniority wouldn't hold it pre merger?

The question goes both ways sir.

 

[PCL_128]

Why should the AWA guy have a Captain slot post merger when his seniority wouldn't hold it pre merger?

The question goes both ways sir.

Because the arbitrator said so, and you agreed to binding arbitration. It really is that simple.

 

[vetrider]

Of course things go both ways, and old Nic balanced it out. Of course I may as well make that statement to the wall though, because in all its arrogance the east is having none of it.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

"For others such as my friend that was hired in 1986 and never sat a day of furlough at airways it probably comes into play for him. You accuse him of a seat grab but look at it from his point of view. He WAS a Captain, but under nic he is junior to a 2000 hire, as it stands he will NEVER make it back to the left seat. So for him he does much better if the airlines remain seperate even under the current LOA."


How is this not a seat grab? YES it is unfortunate that a 1986 hire was at the bottom of his pre-merger seniority list.

What you're saying is that - look at it from his view - he feels justified doing whatever it takes to 'get his' back and salvage his career. This is a SEAT GRAB attempt from 1700+ pilots who were unwitting partners in this mess. It is not our burden to bear for him to get his career back. And it is not his right to willfully harm the AWA group in an attempt to do so.

How has this willfully harmed an AWA guy? We are all still in the same positions that we were when this mess started. We still have no growth that was not planned before the merger. A few airways guys have upgraded and guys were recalled but that was driven primarily by the East retirements. So far there have been no joint operations period, no post merger aircraft order deliveries, no growth flying.

The only growth USAirways has seen other than a token amout of 190 flying is massive RJ deliveries to other pilot groups doing our flying.

Believe me when I say that the East guys are just as unwitting partners in this mess as you are.

If the majority thinks that new representation would be a good idea then we will have it, if not then we will not.

As long as we are 10 airlines flying under one name we will both lose (East/West)

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Because the arbitrator said so, and you agreed to binding arbitration. It really is that simple.

So the guys who will never see the left seat again should just say O.K.?

They have nothing left to lose except a crappy paying right seat position and retirement as a 30 year F/O. They can get that at any other carrier in the country, and if Airways goes down the tubes they have still lost nothing. No retirement loss, no seniority loss, no monetary loss....nothing. That is why they are fighting so hard and why from what I have seen why they will not relent or vote for anything that keeps then in the same position.

I have something to lose in this as do the other 400 or so that came back and are young enough to see the retirements out and still get to the left seat. The majority of the 3ooo + east guys do not. I lose and the west loses, but they do not.

If we do not come to some agreement that addresses these guys concerns airways is done, period. And telling them that an arbitrator said so is not going to stop them from trying to salvage something out of a 25 year career.

While I do not like that prospect, I can see their point. You are 56 years old, making 80 k tops with 25 years served and NIC has said that that is as far as you will ever go and that you will retire in exactly the same position you are in today.......why on earth would he not do whatever was possible to try to salvage it? Worst case? He finishes out his career as a higher paid SWA F/O or UPS F/O or Allegiant Captain or Kalitta 747 Captain. Even as an Allegiant md-80 Cappy he does better than he does with the nic award.

 

[PCL_128]

So the guys who will never see the left seat again should just say O.K.?

No, they should start by recalling the idiots in office that got them into this position. Their MEC is responsible for this catastrophe, not ALPA National. Then they should install new reps that will work with the West MEC to come to an acceptable fences agreement that will finally settle this mess. uSAPa will never get them their left seat, but working smart with the West very well could.