What is the status of the ALPA De-certification vote at US Airways?

[737 Pylt]

...whats amazing is people like you thinking this is some brotherhood.....it is every man for themself......

Holy crap, talk about hypocracy!

...age 60, scope, and mergers.....It's all about me....

Let's not forget multi $$billion lawsuits!

737

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Keep in mind, most of the rhettoric and pure stupidity posted by the likes of Kerosene, BeCareful and Weasil Lips are guys who were furloughed and are the most disenfranchised of the East bunch.

You can pretty much ignore ALGFLYER - he was neither an America West employee or US Airways employee and should be thankful he even gets to fight with us as he backdoored his way in and should be happy to be at the bottom of the list, not scabbily salivating over some dream of a seat grab with the rest of the USAPA d-bags.

Considering that you were not hired until December of 2004 you are pretty bold to discount those of us who lived through the destruction of the airline. You may not like the reasons that I gave you about how and why I feel the way that I do, but I was there and you were not.

I watched as ALPA supposedly tried to protect our jobs at Airways, at the same time they represented the carriers that were TAKING our jobs. I watched as 737's and f-100's be parked and the flying transferred to RJ's flown by other ALPA members. I watched as they (ALPA Mec) gladly flew 95 hours a month, something that had never been done at airways, as 1800+ guys sat on the street. I saw Airways become an airline that is 10 different airlines.

Thats right under ALPA's watchful eye airways is now being flown by 10 airlines ......Most ALPA carriers. As far as I can tell no other airline even comes close to this rediculous amount of outsourcing.

That is why I signed the card, because it really cannot get any worse for a mainline pilot than the path ALPA has allowed us to go down.

Don't know if a new union will fix it, but at least the crowd that I pay dues to wont be the same guys that represet the 250 hour guy that the company is trying to replace us with.

 

[TWA Dude]

That is why I signed the card, because it really cannot get any worse for a mainline pilot than the path ALPA has allowed us to go down.

A sucker bet if I ever saw one. If the AWA pilots were pro-USAPA there would at least be a chance of your prediction coming true. But as long as it's USAPA's stated goal to end-run around binding arbitration you shall see no peace and no improvement in anything. In fact, management will easily take advantage of the discord. You can quote me later: under USAPA it can and shall get worse for the mainline pilots. The problem lies not within the union but within the USAirways (East) pilots' expectations and sense of entitlement.

 

[BOYCAPTAIN]

Don't know if a new union will fix it, but at least the crowd that I pay dues to wont be the same guys that represet the 250 hour guy that the company is trying to replace us with.

FDX went down this road....the new union only took more money out of our pockets and delayed our first contract for years...u guys better have deep pockets...the company will milk every dime out of your union and u will be assessed to death...ALPAs warchest might come in handy...we went back to ALPA for mainly those reasons....but good luck..u will need it

 

[JoeMerchant]

Holy crap, talk about hypocracy!


Let's not forget multi $$billion lawsuits!

737

....no hypocracy 737pylt......I'm looking out for number 1 also......and that ain't you..... If you can't beat'em.......join'em.....

It's clear by looking at the various issues that we all look at them from our own perspective and don't really give a darn about the affect on the other guy......Whether it senior/junior pay vs. pension, age 60, scope, or mergers.....I don't feel the love......

While this isn't good for "collective" bargaining....it is a reality....Ignoring it and pretending that it doesn't exist simply means you will be run over by a fellow "brother".....

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

A sucker bet if I ever saw one. If the AWA pilots were pro-USAPA there would at least be a chance of your prediction coming true. But as long as it's USAPA's stated goal to end-run around binding arbitration you shall see no peace and no improvement in anything. In fact, management will easily take advantage of the discord. You can quote me later: under USAPA it can and shall get worse for the mainline pilots. The problem lies not within the union but within the USAirways (East) pilots' expectations and sense of entitlement.

To be frank that is a point of view. You didn't watch it from our point of view.

For me the Nic award is not a factor, bottom of the list is bottom of the list for me.

For others such as my friend that was hired in 1986 and never sat a day of furlough at airways it probably comes into play for him. You accuse him of a seat grab but look at it from his point of view. He WAS a Captain, but under nic he is junior to a 2000 hire, as it stands he will NEVER make it back to the left seat. So for him he does much better if the airlines remain seperate even under the current LOA.

We watched as our airline was outsourced to the lowest bidder. Even if we had just a fraction of that flying back this whole argument would be moot. The 170/175 flying would be enough to put nearly 100% of the current pilot group in the left seat, east and west. Been to DCA or PHL lately? 170's as far as the eye can see. 25 new 175's in USAir paint this past year alone.....every one of them a 737 or f-100 replacement. In 1999 we had the tightest scope in the industry, by 2007 customers could probably fly USairways for a month straight and never climb on a USAirways airplane.

I am under no illusion that a new union will be the cure all. But when I get Propaganda letters from ALPA telling me how they (ALPA officers) ONLY got longevity raises etc etc, well that is nice real nice. They ONLY got small longevity raises, what about the 1000's of the pilots that they represent? 50% pay cuts, downgrades, furloughs, etc. Yep the fact that ALPA officers got a raise and not paycuts while the guys they represent industry wide got butchered is quite telling about their priorities. They in my view have lost all connection with the pilots they are supposed to serve. Especially when they send out letters like that one in an attempt to keep my support!

 

[ALGFLYR]

And you think the West pilots are going to just sit by and allow you and uSAPa to rape them? I think not. They'll refuse to pay dues, and with 40% of the pilot group not paying dues, the new "union" will be completely impotent (although these idiots would probably be impotent even if 100% paid their dues). Then a small group of West pilots that actually join and pay dues will be able to sue uSAPa for DFR, since a virtual abrogation of the Nic award is an obvious DFR breach. uSAPa would be bankrupt just trying to defend against the lawsuit, never even getting to the point of having to pay out a settlement. You guys are mind-numbingly stupid if you think this uSAPa nonsense will lead you to anywhere but immense failure.

Hey, I wasn't saying this was going to happen or even if it is being considered. Someone asked how it could be possible under a different union. That's all I did was show a possibility...

 

[SaturnPilot]

Why I submitted the card.


1. ALPA agreed to do away with the pension with no pilot vote.

2. ALPA allowed the increase from 85 hours to 95 hours a month. that kept the furloughees out another 2 years at least.

3. ALPA allowed the sales outsourcing of the 170's and 175's, keeping the furloughees out and downgrading more Captains. At least we kept the 190's Thanks to the AWA guys as I understand it.

4. ALPA allowed the wholesale outsourcing frenzy of RJ's (hundreds of airframes) with over 1800 pilots on the street.

5. ALPA couldn't have cared less about me (furloughee) for the past five years, now that I have a vote they want to be my best friend again.

Just a partial list and I am not including the hose job at my furloughee job with another carrier at the hands of ALPA national.

For the last 6 years I have watched ALPA support whoever fills their pockets more, They seem to have lost sight of what their purpose is, not the "Association" as their letters to me keep stating, but the pilots.

Is USAPA the right choice? Dunno, but a little change is not always bad. Win or lose this process will have the effect of shaking things up and reminding the union (whoever it ends up being) what their real purpose is.....and it is not their bank account.

Considering that you were not hired until December of 2004 you are pretty bold to discount those of us who lived through the destruction of the airline. You may not like the reasons that I gave you about how and why I feel the way that I do, but I was there and you were not.

I watched as ALPA supposedly tried to protect our jobs at Airways, at the same time they represented the carriers that were TAKING our jobs. I watched as 737's and f-100's be parked and the flying transferred to RJ's flown by other ALPA members. I watched as they (ALPA Mec) gladly flew 95 hours a month, something that had never been done at airways, as 1800+ guys sat on the street. I saw Airways become an airline that is 10 different airlines.

Thats right under ALPA's watchful eye airways is now being flown by 10 airlines ......Most ALPA carriers. As far as I can tell no other airline even comes close to this rediculous amount of outsourcing.

That is why I signed the card, because it really cannot get any worse for a mainline pilot than the path ALPA has allowed us to go down.

Don't know if a new union will fix it, but at least the crowd that I pay dues to wont be the same guys that represet the 250 hour guy that the company is trying to replace us with.

No offense, but you should probably do a little more research on how a union actually works before you cast your vote to "shake things up". You blame ALPA for everything mentioned above, when in reality, it is your MEC (your fellow Airways pilots) who are in charge. If you vote in USAPA, all you are doing is leaving your fellow pilots in charge, but under a different union logo. Had your same representatives gone through the same events under a different union name, it would have most likely been the same outcome. All that ALPA National does is ADVISE each pilot group on legal matters, economic conditions of carriers, etc. YOUR representatives actually make the decisions, NOT ALPA.

The reality is that voting in USAPA will simply prolong your life under a horrible contract, nothing more...nothing different.

USAPA is simply an emotional response to the events that have transpired over the past few years, designed to appeal to the uninformed. None of us think that 175s should be flying around in Airways colors without Airways pilots, but you have your fellow pilots to blame for that.

 

[charlie2]

T

I am under no illusion that a new union will be the cure all. But when I get Propaganda letters from ALPA telling me how they (ALPA officers) ONLY got longevity raises etc etc, well that is nice real nice. They ONLY got small longevity raises, what about the 1000's of the pilots that they represent? 50% pay cuts, downgrades, furloughs, etc. Yep the fact that ALPA officers got a raise and not paycuts while the guys they represent industry wide got butchered is quite telling about their priorities. They in my view have lost all connection with the pilots they are supposed to serve. Especially when they send out letters like that one in an attempt to keep my support!

I think Prater gets 10 times my pay...E190 FO 1999 hire????

 

[ALGFLYR]

You can pretty much ignore ALGFLYER - he was neither an America West employee or US Airways employee and should be thankful he even gets to fight with us as he backdoored his way in and should be happy to be at the bottom of the list, not scabbily salivating over some dream of a seat grab with the rest of the USAPA d-bags.

First of all, I was an employee of US Airways. I was hired in 2004. And second, and I mean this in a nice way... F- you...

OK, I feel better now, anyway...

As you pointed out, I am at the bottom of the list. That's the beauty of my position. You see, the NIC award really doesn't affect me. No matter how the list goes, or is, I am still in the same place. So for you to imply that I'm a scab and looking for a seat grab is complete BS... You're just so angry, you lash out at anyone.

 

[ALGFLYR]

[/b]


Sure did. Him and his buddy Trainer 8 sure think they're one of the boys now, don't they?

PHXFLYR

Are you saying you have me on your "ignore" list???

I feel honored that you would think you cannot carry on a conversation with me. I am one of the few posters that does not flame everyone in sight. I ignore (in my mind) all the fames and hatred being thrown around, but seriousily listen to coherent posts and arguments presented here. If I have a different opinion, I state it from my point of view. And unless I'm called out specifically, I never participate in the fighting between the Easties and Westies....

And with that said, if I really am on your ignore list... Where on that list am I??? Since I'm going for a seat grab, I want to be near the TOP of that list! At least I could be senior on SOME list....

 

[Freight Dog]

For others such as my friend that was hired in 1986 and never sat a day of furlough at airways it probably comes into play for him. You accuse him of a seat grab but look at it from his point of view. He WAS a Captain, but under nic he is junior to a 2000 hire, as it stands he will NEVER make it back to the left seat. So for him he does much better if the airlines remain seperate even under the current LOA.

That's a big bummer about your friend. But here's a little newsflash: he worked for a real sh*tty carrier, represented by fellow USAirways pilots who flushed his pension, pay, scope down the crapper.

If he was a narrowbody FO with 2 decades of LONGEVITY, it means he DID NOT HAVE SENIORITY to hold captain in any kind of equipment therefore why should he be entitled to a captain slot post-merger when his SENIORITY couldn't hold it pre-merger?

Seems to be that East needs to be edumacated on differentiating seniority from longevity.

 

[PositiveRate]

ALG,

F-me?? Classy. You've got it all wrong. I am angry. Not at you specifically, though. I take serious issue with a couple items, though.

---You were not hired by either mainline carrier, so when you come on here talking about how easy it would be to change contractual language to LOS upgrades, you're supporting a viewpoint that $hits on the entire AWA group. How am I supposed to take that?

---USAPA is a seat grab - it is just as bad as scabbing. You don't have to agree with me - it is what it is and you can explain it away any way you want. There are 1700+ pilots who will be damned if they ever pay a dime to that organization, though. The USAPA drive has been the most foolish waste of time for all of us...while we battle over past wrongs and grudges, we are wholeheartedly missing an opportunity to raise the professional bar back towards where it was...something that would help our other 60,000+ union brothers in their respective battles with management in addition to improving the QOL East and West.

A vote for USAPA is a vote for true civil war and a vote that will cement our position at the bottom of the industry (what...for spite??!!).

To Kerosene and the likes - I really don't know what to say. You have earnest beef with ALPA, but your blame is entirely misplaced. Much of your concern is with issues that have been plagueing every other major carrier (outsourcing, anti-labor post 9/11 movement). The concessions you took would have been much worse if left to be imposed by a court. APA has done no better protecting against this as ALPA national, bytheway. The only independent successes at a pax carrier post 9/11 is SWAPA.

Your local leadership and their hardline positions are what have left you out to dry. Why you think that would be any different with a new union is beyond me. All USAPA will be is more money from your pocket for FAR less career protection. Wait untill you get sick or have some issue where the full resources of ALPA are standing at wait to work solely to save your job - you will have none of that with USAPA.

Your naievite that "how could it be any worse" will end with any issue requiring a union intervention to save your career...I promise you that.

Your stupidity to think it couldn't be any worse is a position that willfully desires to strip career protections from the AWA group and your fellow US Airways pilots.

You are a fool if you think this is the right path. The chance to walk the right path started over 2 years ago, and no matter how many bright neon signs were placed in front of the noses of your leader pointing you back to the right path, you guys continued to march to your drum only. You are now paying the price with lower wages, disgusting work rules AND an active drive to bring the rest of us to your miserable level.

There was a large amount of empathy for the US Airways pilots from the entire AWA group...it's unfortunate that 18 yrs pre-merger was bottom of the list. That empathy is completely gone and you guys can piss off for all I care as it is quite clear you are dead-set on self destruction and want to take as many innocents down with you in the process.

 

[PositiveRate]

"For others such as my friend that was hired in 1986 and never sat a day of furlough at airways it probably comes into play for him. You accuse him of a seat grab but look at it from his point of view. He WAS a Captain, but under nic he is junior to a 2000 hire, as it stands he will NEVER make it back to the left seat. So for him he does much better if the airlines remain seperate even under the current LOA."


How is this not a seat grab? YES it is unfortunate that a 1986 hire was at the bottom of his pre-merger seniority list.

What you're saying is that - look at it from his view - he feels justified doing whatever it takes to 'get his' back and salvage his career. This is a SEAT GRAB attempt from 1700+ pilots who were unwitting partners in this mess. It is not our burden to bear for him to get his career back. And it is not his right to willfully harm the AWA group in an attempt to do so.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

That's a big bummer about your friend. But here's a little newsflash: he worked for a real sh*tty carrier, represented by fellow USAirways pilots who flushed his pension, pay, scope down the crapper.

If he was a narrowbody FO with 2 decades of LONGEVITY, it means he DID NOT HAVE SENIORITY to hold captain in any kind of equipment therefore why should he be entitled to a captain slot post-merger when his SENIORITY couldn't hold it pre-merger?

Seems to be that East needs to be edumacated on differentiating seniority from longevity.

Why should the AWA guy have a Captain slot post merger when his seniority wouldn't hold it pre merger?

The question goes both ways sir.

 

[PCL_128]

Why should the AWA guy have a Captain slot post merger when his seniority wouldn't hold it pre merger?

The question goes both ways sir.

Because the arbitrator said so, and you agreed to binding arbitration. It really is that simple.

 

[vetrider]

Of course things go both ways, and old Nic balanced it out. Of course I may as well make that statement to the wall though, because in all its arrogance the east is having none of it.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

"For others such as my friend that was hired in 1986 and never sat a day of furlough at airways it probably comes into play for him. You accuse him of a seat grab but look at it from his point of view. He WAS a Captain, but under nic he is junior to a 2000 hire, as it stands he will NEVER make it back to the left seat. So for him he does much better if the airlines remain seperate even under the current LOA."


How is this not a seat grab? YES it is unfortunate that a 1986 hire was at the bottom of his pre-merger seniority list.

What you're saying is that - look at it from his view - he feels justified doing whatever it takes to 'get his' back and salvage his career. This is a SEAT GRAB attempt from 1700+ pilots who were unwitting partners in this mess. It is not our burden to bear for him to get his career back. And it is not his right to willfully harm the AWA group in an attempt to do so.

How has this willfully harmed an AWA guy? We are all still in the same positions that we were when this mess started. We still have no growth that was not planned before the merger. A few airways guys have upgraded and guys were recalled but that was driven primarily by the East retirements. So far there have been no joint operations period, no post merger aircraft order deliveries, no growth flying.

The only growth USAirways has seen other than a token amout of 190 flying is massive RJ deliveries to other pilot groups doing our flying.

Believe me when I say that the East guys are just as unwitting partners in this mess as you are.

If the majority thinks that new representation would be a good idea then we will have it, if not then we will not.

As long as we are 10 airlines flying under one name we will both lose (East/West)

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Because the arbitrator said so, and you agreed to binding arbitration. It really is that simple.

So the guys who will never see the left seat again should just say O.K.?

They have nothing left to lose except a crappy paying right seat position and retirement as a 30 year F/O. They can get that at any other carrier in the country, and if Airways goes down the tubes they have still lost nothing. No retirement loss, no seniority loss, no monetary loss....nothing. That is why they are fighting so hard and why from what I have seen why they will not relent or vote for anything that keeps then in the same position.

I have something to lose in this as do the other 400 or so that came back and are young enough to see the retirements out and still get to the left seat. The majority of the 3ooo + east guys do not. I lose and the west loses, but they do not.

If we do not come to some agreement that addresses these guys concerns airways is done, period. And telling them that an arbitrator said so is not going to stop them from trying to salvage something out of a 25 year career.

While I do not like that prospect, I can see their point. You are 56 years old, making 80 k tops with 25 years served and NIC has said that that is as far as you will ever go and that you will retire in exactly the same position you are in today.......why on earth would he not do whatever was possible to try to salvage it? Worst case? He finishes out his career as a higher paid SWA F/O or UPS F/O or Allegiant Captain or Kalitta 747 Captain. Even as an Allegiant md-80 Cappy he does better than he does with the nic award.

 

[PCL_128]

So the guys who will never see the left seat again should just say O.K.?

No, they should start by recalling the idiots in office that got them into this position. Their MEC is responsible for this catastrophe, not ALPA National. Then they should install new reps that will work with the West MEC to come to an acceptable fences agreement that will finally settle this mess. uSAPa will never get them their left seat, but working smart with the West very well could.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Because the arbitrator said so, and you agreed to binding arbitration. It really is that simple.

.....it is "really that simple"?

Release #05.ALA4
July 11, 2005
Alaska Airlines Pilots Overwhelmingly Reject Proposed Agreement
Nearly 90% of pilots turn down an agreement to lessen pay cuts, grant other concessions
SEATTLE -- The pilots of Alaska Airlines overwhelmingly rejected the tentative agreement that would have replaced the current two-year contract with a five-year agreement that would have lessened the impact of arbitrated pay cuts but substituted concessions in areas such as health care, retirement and work rules. Slightly more than 95% of pilots voted, with 88.9% voting against ratifying the agreement.
On May 1, an arbitrator’s ruling took effect that reduced pilot pay by 21-34%, with the lowest-paid, most junior pilots taking the largest cut. Although the rejected agreement called for less severe pay cuts--a 20%, across-the-board reduction from April 30 wages--it would have meant five years with only one pay increase of 2% in 2008.
The rejected agreement also would have eliminated the pilots’ current health care plan, instead adopting management’s plan. It called for increased premiums, altered retirement options and implemented work rule concessions. The arbitrated ruling did not modify retirement and contained few work rule concessions.
“Our pilots were faced with two choices, neither of them good,” said Capt. Mark Bryant, chairman of the Alaska pilots’ union. “By overwhelmingly rejecting this TA, our pilots have unequivocally said their future benefits are worth more than a little extra money in their pockets right now.”
Because the tentative agreement failed ratification, the arbitrated contract that handed down the drastic pay cuts remains in effect. It is amendable in May 2007. A lawsuit filed by the Air Line Pilots Association on May 13 in Federal District Court that asks that the arbitration award be vacated will proceed.
“The pilots of Alaska Airlines want to be partners in the success of our airline,” Bryant said. “Through the arbitration award, this pilot group has invested $90 million per year into Alaska Airlines. We hope our management will use that money wisely and turn Alaska Airlines into the profitable, thriving carrier that we know it can be.”
“We expect in two years when we negotiate a new contract that our management will remember the investment we’ve made through the arbitrator’s award and will, in turn, invest in this pilot group,” Bryant said.
Under a side letter of agreement in the Alaska Airlines pilots’ former labor contract, if the airline and its pilots union could not reach an agreement on a new contract, the issues of contention were decided by an arbitrator. The side letter expired with the latest arbitration, which means that future contract negotiations are governed by the Railway Labor Act, which is the case at most other airlines.
Founded in 1931, the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA) represents 64,000 pilots at 41 airlines in the United States and Canada, including the 1,500 pilots who fly for Alaska Airlines.

# # #​

ALPA Contact: Jenn Farrell, (206) 241-3138


How dare someone file suit to vacate an arbitration ruling..... ​

 

[vetrider]

What about the guys who have been retiring from the right seat for the last several years on the east side? Who do they blame?

 

[PCL_128]

How dare someone file suit to vacate an arbitration ruling.....

If AAA ALPA wants to file suit to vacate the arbitration, then I say "go for it." They won't get anywhere with it, but at least that would be more productive than crying like a bunch of babies and trying to create uSAPa. uSAPa will only dig them further in the hole.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

uSAPa will never get them their left seat, but working smart with the West very well could.

Whenwas the last time you heard an AWA guy say anything other than "Nic award" when the fence subject was brought up?

 

[PCL_128]

Whenwas the last time you heard an AWA guy say anything other than "Nic award" when the fence subject was brought up?

When you're trying to remove ALPA and install uSAPa in an attempt to screw them over, you can expect them to act defensive. If you start acting reasonably and carry out real negotiations with the West, then I'd bet anything that a solution is achievable. The West MEC is probably very eager to put an end to this mess and just move on with getting a new contract. I guarantee that an agreement on fences is achievable.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

What about the guys who have been retiring from the right seat for the last several years on the east side? Who do they blame?

They ran out of time, the other guys haven't yet.


I can say that for most I speak with, they honestly feel that there is nothing that they can lose, and since they have the power to kill this carrier, or make it work, the rest of us that do have something to lose better come up with a way for these guys to feel that they have salvaged something out of theis mess. Nic isn't going to do it for them.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

When you're trying to remove ALPA and install uSAPa in an attempt to screw them over, you can expect them to act defensive. If you start acting reasonably and carry out real negotiations with the West, then I'd bet anything that a solution is achievable. The West MEC is probably very eager to put an end to this mess and just move on with getting a new contract. I guarantee that an agreement on fences is achievable.

I think if the west were to go for that we would already be done with this mess. All I have ever heard from the guys is "Protect the east retirements with fences" I don't think the west MEC is willing to give up the widebodies or bus seats for the amount of time required to get these guys finished up and out of here. I know my friend at AWA who was hired in 2004 is salivating at the thought of a 330 f/o or Narrowbody Capt. in 12 months.

 

[PCL_128]

I think if the west were to go for that we would already be done with this mess. All I have ever heard from the guys is "Protect the east retirements with fences" I don't think the west MEC is willing to give up the widebodies or bus seats for the amount of time required to get these guys finished up and out of here. I know my friend at AWA who was hired in 2004 is salivating at the thought of a 330 f/o or Narrowbody Capt. in 12 months.

There has to be give and take. You can't demand 100% of the seats and expect to get a settlement. Give the West some of the slots and you'll make some progress. Continue with the same arrogant attitude that demanded DOH at arbitration and you'll end up with nothing but a failed airline and an unemployment check.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

There has to be give and take. You can't demand 100% of the seats and expect to get a settlement. Give the West some of the slots and you'll make some progress. Continue with the same arrogant attitude that demanded DOH at arbitration and you'll end up with nothing but a failed airline and an unemployment check.

Ahh young grasshopper, now you see why the push at USAPA is doing so well over there, ALPA MEC is the one that pushed for that DOH to the bitter end. The pilots just want some kind of fence to salvage their careers. If the current MEC wont do it, and ALPA national insists on shoving the nic award through as they are doing (Praters actions over the last few months) then they will find somebody that will.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I still guarantee that if it is agreed to let East Keep their retirements and West to keep their retirements and split the growth up between the two this thing is over in a week.

Both get what they brought to the table, both get a taste of the new stuff.

Anything else I think will kill the airline.