What is the status of the ALPA De-certification vote at US Airways?

[TWA Dude]

Ahh young grasshopper, now you see why the push at USAPA is doing so well over there, ALPA MEC is the one that pushed for that DOH to the bitter end

That doesn't even make sense. You're blaming your MEC for failing to get exactly what USAPA demands? It's no fun arguing with irrational people.

 

[PCL_128]

Ahh young grasshopper, now you see why the push at USAPA is doing so well over there, ALPA MEC is the one that pushed for that DOH to the bitter end.

If you problem is the AAA MEC (and it is), then recall them!!! Getting rid of ALPA and replacing it with a useless, impotent uSAPa will get you nothing. Replacing your MEC with competent leaders will likely lead to a consensual agreement that benefits both groups. You don't have to get rid of ALPA to get rid of your MEC. Why is this so difficult for some of you to understand?

 

[vetrider]

I still guarantee that if it is agreed to let East Keep their retirements and West to keep their retirements and split the growth up between the two this thing is over in a week.

Both get what they brought to the table, both get a taste of the new stuff.

Anything else I think will kill the airline.

I agree with alot of what you say there. I would just like to add that if the east would quit acting up and just move on with it, things would ultimately end up looking a lot like that anyway. I'd put money on it. I think Nic really was to deep a thinker for the more obtuse.

 

[Prog 2/2]

I can say that for most I speak with, they honestly feel that there is nothing that they can lose, and since they have the power to kill this carrier, or make it work, the rest of us that do have something to lose better come up with a way for these guys to feel that they have salvaged something out of theis mess. Nic isn't going to do it for them.

Your chest hurt yet?

I mean, with all that thumping going on, it's bound to be getting a little sore, huh?

Your pilot group has caved in more times than a Utah coal mine, on nearly every issue presented to you over the past two bankruptcies, and now you're gonna draw a line in the sand and die with your boots on?

And, btw, it's not incumbent on me or any other west pilot to sacrifice anything to make you whole for what you lost.

 

[ALGFLYR]

ALG,

F-me?? Classy. You've got it all wrong. I am angry. Not at you specifically, though. I take serious issue with a couple items, though.

---You were not hired by either mainline carrier, so when you come on here talking about how easy it would be to change contractual language to LOS upgrades, you're supporting a viewpoint that $hits on the entire AWA group. How am I supposed to take that?

PositiveRate,

Well, first things first... The F- you comment, yeah, probably out of line for me. The issues we have at hand are understandably emotional for all involved. But you come on here and call me a scab pushing for a "seat grab" and tell me how lucky I am to be here... That is simply NOT TRUE! You revert to name calling and personally bashing me... F-you pretty much summed up my feelings on that... Had I thought about it longer, I could have probably come up with a more mature response... Sorry I didn't go that route... anyway...

As far as my position, I WAS hired at US Airways in 2004 and worked for 2 years before I was furloughed. My ALPA card says "AAA Active". ALL other previousily furloughed pilots were offed the position I took and they turned it down. There is a grievance on-going about how this went down, but that's another story..

As far as me talking about changing contract language, I was not advocating this position, I was merley responding to a post that said there "WAS NO WAY" to change the Nic award. I was just showing that this "Could" be a way... Never say never...

I don't think anyone really wants to S%!T on the AWA group. "IF" the language was changed to LOS, there would still need to be fences to protect your group. If 20 CA's retire from PHX, then the 20 upgrades MUST come from the West to replace them. Thinking an East pilot should is just stupid. If 10 East 767 pilots retire from PHL, then 10 East pilots should take their place. I personally think that fences should be the way to live with the Nic award. Our junior pilot that was NEVER furloughed was a Captain for quite a while. He was subsequently downgraded as we went through BK. So why should he have to wait until EVERY AWA FO upgrades into an originally East CA slot before he gets a chance?

Let us have our pre-merger CA slots for pre-merger East FO's and we will let you have all pre-merger West CA slots for pre-meger West Fo's. All "NEW" flying can be split down the middle. Why is that hard for the West to accept?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Your chest hurt yet?

I mean, with all that thumping going on, it's bound to be getting a little sore, huh?

Your pilot group has caved in more times than a Utah coal mine, on nearly every issue presented to you over the past two bankruptcies, and now you're gonna draw a line in the sand and die with your boots on?

And, btw, it's not incumbent on me or any other west pilot to sacrifice anything to make you whole for what you lost.

Sorry no chest thumping going on here. just telling you what I see everyday over there.

From my point of view if NIC is the way it is going to be, USAirways is already dead. The guys most hurt by it are also the ones with enough voting power to make sure that this mess never gets worked out. There is going to have to be some kind of compromise and Nic isn't going to do it, the majority just will not allow it.

For me if they go down the toilet, oh well. i have been through 4 airlines already in my career and between those and the other stuff, I have more type ratings already than I ever thought I would see on my certificate. I am a junior guy in the middle of this, if I have to dust off an old corporate type or go back to heavylift international flying that will work for me too. I just hate to see the hometown airline that used to be a great place to work end up listed with Eastern, Braniff, Pan-Am and all the rest of the corpses. If that is it's destiny then I will have some fond memories of my time there and move on.

Thanks for the discussion all, I have said my point of view and you have said yours, anymore is just gouging at an open wound.

 

[ALGFLYR]

If you problem is the AAA MEC (and it is), then recall them!!! Getting rid of ALPA and replacing it with a useless, impotent uSAPa will get you nothing. Replacing your MEC with competent leaders will likely lead to a consensual agreement that benefits both groups. You don't have to get rid of ALPA to get rid of your MEC. Why is this so difficult for some of you to understand?

It is a long hard process to recall MEC members. One that is underway though. Just watch the next CLT LEC meeting.... gonna be interesting... If they are successful, a huge shift in power will occur. Anyway, a much quicker way is to replace the entire union. We can only hope this occurs before ALPA National decides to cram something down our throats without us being able to vote on it... This is why this push is happening here...

 

[PCL_128]

It is a long hard process to recall MEC members.

Actually, you could have done it about a dozen times by now if you weren't so focused on shooting yourself in the di-- with this uSAPa nonsense.

Anyway, a much quicker way is to replace the entire union.

No, that takes longer and is more difficult. Maybe if you would have read the ALPA Bylaws a year ago instead of whining and crying then you would have known that.

 

[PositiveRate]

ALG,

For the record, your card my say AAA active, but you and I know that in 2004 you were not hired to mainline...you were hired at MDA and flew a plane with a big EXPRESS painted on the side. You snuck in the back door - honestly I have zero problem with that...good for you, but don't get all uppity like you were an original mainline guy in this. I'm very surprised that you support their opinions as you, like the west, have much to lose in this.

Secondly - Are you serious?!! You think a quicker way to change is to just "replace the entire union". Do you have any real understanding of what protections are lost by doing so? Aeromedical has publically stated they WILL NOT do business with USAPA.

That would suck to be a 55 yr old who gets cancer the week after USAPA or needs a transplant, or something major and no intermediary to help with the process. How about if you bust an altitude the day after USAPA is voted in or have a runway incursion? You better than this?? Think it can't happen to you? What if your spouse/child/parent dies and you are not mentally capable of flying for some period of time? What if you refuse an assignment due to fatigue the day after USAPA arrives and the company decides they don't believe you and attempt to discipline you...who is going to help you?

Anyone who feels it's better and quicker to get "change" by voting for USAPA is truly foolish.

Bytheway...

I didn't call you a scab - I said you were "scabbily salivating" over a seat grab, which is exactly what you guys are doing. I should have used different words to imply that the USAPA attitude is scabbish and toting that party line is just as bad.

Read Kerosene's posts...although he himself seems reasonable, he readily admits there is a faction with yours that will stop at nothing to get 'theirs' back...up to and including killing the airline and the livlihoods of thousands of people who don't deserve this. It's unbelievably selfish to presume they have nothing to lose. By taking that stance, they say they are all that is important and f-everyone else, their families, their chance at working for a healthy airline. These guys must be stopped. Yes their career is/was a $hit sandwhich, but they are OWED NOTHING. They were the bottom of the list and they got a fair shake. You're lying to yourself to think they are justified in the action they are taking.

 

[FR8mastr]

ALG,

For the record, your card my say AAA active, but you and I know that in 2004 you were not hired to mainline...you were hired at MDA and flew a plane with a big EXPRESS painted on the side. .

Sorry Positive Rate, this is where you are misinformed.

He and others were in fact hired at US Airways to work at the division know as MDA. While this may pluck your last nerve it doesnt change what took place. There is plenty of evidence to back this up. The planes did say Express on the side, they also said Mid Atlantic Airways
Operated by US Airways, this was painted by the main cabin door.

Think about that one for a sec. "Operated by US Airways"

There is no Airline called "mainline" there is an airline called US Airways and he worked there in 2004.

 

[ALGFLYR]

For the record, your card my say AAA active, but you and I know that in 2004 you were not hired to mainline...you were hired at MDA and flew a plane with a big EXPRESS painted on the side. You snuck in the back door

See, this is NOT true. ORIGINALLY, MDA was supposed to be a seperate carrier. But it didn't happen that way. Before any CEL pilot was offered a position, ALL furloughed pilots were offered the same. The company failed to fill MDA according to recall protocols because every MDA pilot was a ML pilot. Many furloughed pilots got screwed because the company lied and thus a grievance has been filed to correct this problem. But that does not change the fact that when the CEL pilots exercised their contractual ability to fly the E-170, they knew they would be on the ML seniority list. This is why we had to fill out a US Airways application. There was no sneaking on our part, this was all above the table.

Secondly - Are you serious?!! You think a quicker way to change is to just "replace the entire union". Do you have any real understanding of what protections are lost by doing so? Aeromedical has publically stated they WILL NOT do business with USAPA.

With ALPA national threatening to force a contract down our throat without a ratification vote, this was quicker than replacing the MEC. Not much time left...

That ALPA sponsored program is underwritten by insurace companies. Don't you think there are other insurance companies that would be glad to cover our pilots? Look at the USAPA website, they have already lined up most of these, some with better coverage at a lower cost..

Bytheway...

I didn't call you a scab - I said you were "scabbily salivating" over a seat grab, which is exactly what you guys are doing.

That's like saying "I didn't call you stupid, I said you were stupidly doing something..." There's a difference? Sorry, I don't see it.... sounded like you called me a scab. Anyway, as I have said... no seat grab here. I'm at the bottom no matter how this list is constructed. Nic really means nothing to me.

Read Kerosene's posts...although he himself seems reasonable, he readily admits there is a faction with yours that will stop at nothing to get 'theirs' back...up to and including killing the airline

Well, I don't like that line of reasoning. I understand their anger and respect their resolve... but I hope we can find a resolution to this mess and move on and defend our airline against what looks like some mega-carriers about to be created. I would hope that US Airways can once again become a great carrier we can all be proud to work for... Did I really say that? Damm, that was a strong drink...

 

[PCL_128]

With ALPA national threatening to force a contract down our throat without a ratification vote, this was quicker than replacing the MEC. Not much time left...

This is ridiculous. ALPA National is going to do no such thing. You're drinking too much of the spiked uSAPa kool-aid.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

If you problem is the AAA MEC (and it is), then recall them!!! Getting rid of ALPA and replacing it with a useless, impotent uSAPa will get you nothing. Replacing your MEC with competent leaders will likely lead to a consensual agreement that benefits both groups. You don't have to get rid of ALPA to get rid of your MEC. Why is this so difficult for some of you to understand?

Yes, you make it sound so simple, but I have some friends who work for US Air in CLT, and they put out a motion to recall the CLT LEC, but the council refuses to hear any part of it????? And, from what I have heard it is because the CLT LEC is kissing alpa national a$$, so national will not do anything about it. It all politics, and alpa national is Always going to do whatever they want, regardless. Example; "age 60" And, PCL_128, you worthless "pay for training" alpa cheerleader, before You say anything about the lack of participation in the age 60 survey, I did participate in the survey, and always had NO doubt (as did most alpa members), that even if the survey came back with 100% participating and 80% Against changing age 60, that 'alpa national' was going to push for the change, Period. As that was already decided and it did not matter what the memebership thought.

For what its worth.

DA

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, you make it sound so simple, but I have some friends who work for US Air in CLT, and they put out a motion to recall the CLT LEC, but the council refuses to hear any part of it????? And, from what I have heard it is because the CLT LEC is kissing alpa national a$$, so national will not do anything about it.

Your friends don't know what they're doing. If they'd read the Bylaws, they'd realize that just showing up to a Local Council meeting and asking for a recall isn't how the process works. If they follow the proper procedure, then a recall is actually very easy, and ALPA National will not stand in the way at all.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

USAPA is simply an emotional response to the events that have transpired over the past few years, designed to appeal to the uninformed. None of us think that 175s should be flying around in Airways colors without Airways pilots, but you have your fellow pilots to blame for that.

I liken USAPA to the 1981 movie TAPS with Tommy "Psyco Scientology" Cruise......

It's beautiful man!!! M-60 wide open!!! :uzi:

 

[GerryG]

I have no dog in this hunt and I viewed this thread out of curiosity, but ya know... Management is always behind these "Pilots Associations". ALWAYS

God help you if you take this bait. ALPA might be on the ropes right now but, good god wait until management has a direct conduit to your PA's leadership.

Did management start the whispering campaign yet about how everything is going to be honkie-dorie, if you guys vote this thing in?

 

[waveflyer]

Why I submitted the card.


1. ALPA agreed to do away with the pension with no pilot vote.

2. ALPA allowed the increase from 85 hours to 95 hours a month. that kept the furloughees out another 2 years at least.

3. ALPA allowed the sales outsourcing of the 170's and 175's, keeping the furloughees out and downgrading more Captains. At least we kept the 190's Thanks to the AWA guys as I understand it.

4. ALPA allowed the wholesale outsourcing frenzy of RJ's (hundreds of airframes) with over 1800 pilots on the street.

5. ALPA couldn't have cared less about me (furloughee) for the past five years, now that I have a vote they want to be my best friend again.

Just a partial list and I am not including the hose job at my furloughee job with another carrier at the hands of ALPA national.

For the last 6 years I have watched ALPA support whoever fills their pockets more, They seem to have lost sight of what their purpose is, not the "Association" as their letters to me keep stating, but the pilots.

Is USAPA the right choice? Dunno, but a little change is not always bad. Win or lose this process will have the effect of shaking things up and reminding the union (whoever it ends up being) what their real purpose is.....and it is not their bank account.

I think it's funny b/c i talk to AWA people and they haven't exactly been treated well by alpa- like a step-child actually- they talk of how ALPA national opened the strike fund for comair but not them, the latest being prater waffling on the Nic award- not fully backing it and truly energizing the idea that the award won't become final when it should have.

BUT IT'S THE TIMING. i don't think anyone's confused about why this is happening. This being the straw makes it so much more deplorable. You got screwed in every way possible- but it's a young guy being on equal seniority ground that puts you over the edge?? It's just crazy. Realize that the entire industry has younger pilots w/ better "seniority" than you. The fact that you merged w/ someone does not give you a right to jump over them and bump them down.

 

[Fast43]

Yes the union had to agree to all of it for the company to be allowed to do it. That is a very simplified version, but in the end that is the case. There is an ALPA signature on each one of those agreements.

It is not so much the fact that it happened as the way it happened, I sat for 6 years and watched ALPA roll over to mgmt. time and time again. If there are extenuating circumstances as to why they let scope, retirement, and all the other stuff go with no more than minimal lip service I am all ears. We still have some time before the vote.

Just curious, where were your elected Pilot Reps when all this occurred?

Could the "extenuating circumstances" you mentioned be related to 2 trips through Bankruptcy, where some hard, not so popular decisions had to be made. Is it possible that these decisions facilitated your return?

Fast

 

[737 Pylt]

....no hypocracy 737pylt......I'm looking out for number 1 also......and that ain't you..... If you can't beat'em.......join'em.....

No Johnny, don't you mean, if you can't beat em, sue them?!

It's clear by looking at the various issues that we all look at them from our own perspective and don't really give a darn about the affect on the other guy......Whether it senior/junior pay vs. pension, age 60, scope, or mergers.....I don't feel the love......

That love stopped the minute your gang of undesirables started their $$billion lawsuit!

While this isn't good for "collective" bargaining....it is a reality....Ignoring it and pretending that it doesn't exist simply means you will be run over by a fellow "brother".....

You and LJ are one in the same dude! I almost feel sorry for you. Too bad, some day you'll still be 55 years old flying your rj (since the atr is going), telling the twenty something year old new hires, "just how you tried to change the world" by suiing them!
You're pathetic dude. Your anti-alpa drivel is as old as your girlfriend! Your way of fixing it was to take notes, and not play nice at mec/lec meetings. As secretary treasurer you had a chance to be influencial, however you chose to just remain a prick!

737

 

[Fast43]

So the guys who will never see the left seat again should just say O.K.?

So now the Left seat is a birthright ?????

They have nothing left to lose except a crappy paying right seat position and retirement as a 30 year F/O. They can get that at any other carrier in the country, and if Airways goes down the tubes they have still lost nothing. No retirement loss, no seniority loss, no monetary loss....nothing. That is why they are fighting so hard and why from what I have seen why they will not relent or vote for anything that keeps then in the same position.

I have something to lose in this as do the other 400 or so that came back and are young enough to see the retirements out and still get to the left seat. The majority of the 3ooo + east guys do not. I lose and the west loses, but they do not.

If we do not come to some agreement that addresses these guys concerns airways is done, period. And telling them that an arbitrator said so is not going to stop them from trying to salvage something out of a 25 year career.

So then we are looking at a group of suicide bombers with their fingers on the button and we better give in or else !!!!!....................

While I do not like that prospect, I can see their point. You are 56 years old, making 80 k tops with 25 years served and NIC has said that that is as far as you will ever go and that you will retire in exactly the same position you are in today.......why on earth would he not do whatever was possible to try to salvage it? Worst case? He finishes out his career as a higher paid SWA F/O or UPS F/O or Allegiant Captain or Kalitta 747 Captain. Even as an Allegiant md-80 Cappy he does better than he does with the nic award.

Problem is, he didn't do that when he should have and now we have this mess.

I'm sure the attitudes of these guys are in great demand at those carriers!!! Should ace the interview.