What is going on at Avantair?

[cjdriver]

Glasspilot, interesting point of view. I don't know if you're on to anything or not, but it is ironic that not too long ago, Netjets pilots were pitied because of their low pay and bad work conditions, while others were making more money and had it better overall. Yes, things do change, and will. Who know's what the future will bring for Netjets or Options or the rest. Good luck to all.

 

[netjetwife]

GP, they say we all look at life thru the filter of our past experiences. Yours has undoubtedly led you to read more into my post than was ever intended. In no way did I mean to offend anyone with my analogy. It was based on, as I said, only "size" and I made a point of deploring the ego aspect of it all. I clearly tried to show that each frac has a role to play in the industry and they should all work together.

Perhaps the Navy was different from the AF (I've been told by Navy pilots that's the case), but there was far less "rank-wearing" than you surmise. I saw it, yes, but it was definitely the exception. Nonetheless, had my husband and I been into politics he wouldn't have retired as a Lt Col. We left one assignment early because of the political landscape and we'd make the same decision again.

Looking at things objectively, it only makes sense that the group with the most pilots should break new ground and try to establish an industry standard that others can use to advantage. There is a reason they say there's safety in numbers, you know. The strategy works. NJ pilots have union protections that others don't so it makes sense to send them out on the front line--hence the "rock" analogy. But I pointed out that a handful of smaller groups working in concert could also effect changes. I'm sorry you didn't like the imagery. It has nothing to do with a personality issue. I'm not interested in who "owes" who. I'm suggesting that working together is smart use of your resources to affect change within your industry. I would much rather see the pilots working together to raise industry standards for all, than the managers continuing to suppress wages because the pilots don't fight for what they've earned. Fair warning, another analogy: It's hard to achieve a standing ovation if half the audience remains sitting. But if you'll all stand together...

I'm advocating an industry viewpoint whereby pilots would view any progress made as a collective win to build upon for future gains. NJ FOs are still underpaid so NJ pilots don't have all the bragging rights you seem to think they are trying to claim. Or that I am...misguided notion that that is... Management certainly points to the low wages of your peers as an excuse to underpay many of you in the frac industry. I'm making the suggestion that the pilots turn that around by pointing out the higher wages (and I don't care where you find them) as justification for demanding fair wages, benefits, schedules, etc. I think it'd be great if other frac groups could get FOs wages brought up before the NJ pilots go back to the bargaining table. I don't think those FO families would care who they had the good fortunate of "thanking" for their raise. I know if that had happened while my husband was an underpaid NJ FO I'd have happily posted thank you cards to every frac group involved. NJW

A RISING TIDE SHOULD LIFT ALL FRACTIONAL BOATS, SOME PADDLING REQUIRED

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

I used to serve in the military. I was based in Japan for 3 years. I was single but many of the service men brought their wives and kids over for their tour. A very common complaint of the wives in the military (especially in Japan because almost all of their friends are other military wives) is that the wife takes on the rank of her husband. It's not a formal rule or anything but it happens. An enlisted mans wife knows her husband is enlisted and would act differently towards the wife of an officer. The ships Captains wife takes on the lead of all the wives and her only "equals" are the other ships Captains wives. If there's a fight or a spat between two wives then the rank system comes in and you can bet the junior husband will hear from the senior husband. Sounds crazy but that is the way it is.

I share this because I've been sensing something on this board and couldn't quite put my finger on it but now I know what it is. Some of the posts from NetJets pilots (and one wife) sound like the same crap that the Navy wives were doing.

This whole NetJets is bigger and I work for them so therefore I outrank you. Posts like, "You owe your pay, your schedule to NetJets.", or, "We helped CS and CS helped avantair so avantair owes NetJets", or, "our dumb competitors have blood blah blah blah", or, "NetJets is the big rock and your the little pebbles".

Whatever! I don't owe my pay, my sched, or anything else to NetJets. Call yourself a "rock" if you want but it comes off degrading to be referred to as a pebble. I know your proud of your outfit but I'm proud of mine too and I certainly don't look UP to you. I'm here cause I want to be. I know you find it hard to believe but I didn't and don't want to work for NetJets.

Aviation is cyclical. No airline has made it to the top and stayed there. PanAm, Easteren, Braniff, United, TWA, U.S. Airways, Northwest. All busted or broke. NetJets will undoubtedly fail too someday. Nothing lasts forever.

Excellent reading.

 

[Mr. Pebbles]

GP, they say we all look at life thru the filter of our past experiences. Yours has undoubtedly led you to read more into my post than was ever intended. In no way did I mean to offend anyone with my analogy. It was based on, as I said, only "size" and I made a point of deploring the ego aspect of it all. I clearly tried to show that each frac has a role to play in the industry and they should all work together.

Perhaps the Navy was different from the AF (I've been told by Navy pilots that's the case), but there was far less "rank-wearing" than you surmise. I saw it, yes, but it was definitely the exception. Nonetheless, had my husband and I been into politics he wouldn't have retired as a Lt Col. We left one assignment early because of the political landscape and we'd make the same decision again.

Looking at things objectively, it only makes sense that the group with the most pilots should break new ground and try to establish an industry standard that others can use to advantage. There is a reason they say there's safety in numbers, you know. The strategy works. NJ pilots have union protections that others don't so it makes sense to send them out on the front line--hence the "rock" analogy. But I pointed out that a handful of smaller groups working in concert could also effect changes. I'm sorry you didn't like the imagery. It has nothing to do with a personality issue. I'm not interested in who "owes" who. I'm suggesting that working together is smart use of your resources to affect change within your industry. I would much rather see the pilots working together to raise industry standards for all, than the managers continuing to suppress wages because the pilots don't fight for what they've earned. Fair warning, another analogy: It's hard to achieve a standing ovation if half the audience remains sitting. But if you'll all stand together...

I'm advocating an industry viewpoint whereby pilots would view any progress made as a collective win to build upon for future gains. NJ FOs are still underpaid so NJ pilots don't have all the bragging rights you seem to think they are trying to claim. Or that I am...misguided notion that that is... Management certainly points to the low wages of your peers as an excuse to underpay many of you in the frac industry. I'm making the suggestion that the pilots turn that around by pointing out the higher wages (and I don't care where you find them) as justification for demanding fair wages, benefits, schedules, etc. I think it'd be great if other frac groups could get FOs wages brought up before the NJ pilots go back to the bargaining table. I don't think those FO families would care who they had the good fortunate of "thanking" for their raise. I know if that had happened while my husband was an underpaid NJ FO I'd have happily posted thank you cards to every frac group involved. NJW

A RISING TIDE SHOULD LIFT ALL FRACTIONAL BOATS, SOME PADDLING REQUIRED

Excellent as well.

 

[brewerdog]

njw does have a point - we are all in this together and should spend more time helping eachother up rather than pissing down

 

[CherryBomb]

Agreed...

 

[fivefootnuthin]

ugg.....that nasty Flops merger rumor just WON'T go away. I dunno what would be worse news from NBAA - that, or hearing nothing at all?

 

[Publishers]

It is her social plight in life to feel like they are benefiting the world. If we told our owners that we were going to have 2.5 crews per aircaft so we could do 7/7, they would say--we will be leaving now and hire our own crew.
She fails to take into account that the number of hours you fly, the days of the week you have actvity, what type of flying you do, the equipment you have, the scope of your operations, the return on investment, the tax consequences, the ROA, cash flow, compliance, the whims of the owner, and everything else most of us deal with everyday because she has been at the Air Force and Netjets so knows all.

 

[glasspilot]

It is her social plight in life to feel like they are benefiting the world. If we told our owners that we were going to have 2.5 crews per aircaft so we could do 7/7, they would say--we will be leaving now and hire our own crew.
She fails to take into account that the number of hours you fly, the days of the week you have actvity, what type of flying you do, the equipment you have, the scope of your operations, the return on investment, the tax consequences, the ROA, cash flow, compliance, the whims of the owner, and everything else most of us deal with everyday because she has been at the Air Force and Netjets so knows all.

Um....yeah. I'll take another over here with the check.

 

[netjetwife]

It is her social plight in life to feel like they are benefiting the world. ...

More likely she just feels strongly about the issues affecting her family by way of the frac industry. Likewise, I suspect that she abhors injustice and thinks those being treated unfairly should stand up for themselves and she admires those who do. NJ pilots have already benefited hugely from the work her husband has done for the Membership. $$ in their pockets is just the beginning.

If we told our owners that we were going to have 2.5 crews per aircaft so we could do 7/7, they would say--we will be leaving now and hire our own crew. ....

Or...they'd recognize the reality of industry standards and the legitimate pursuit of equal treatment for the same job performance. You don't get what you don't ask for....

She fails to take into account that the number of hours you fly, the days of the week you have actvity, what type of flying you do, the equipment you have, the scope of your operations, the return on investment, the tax consequences, the ROA, cash flow, compliance, the whims of the owner, and everything else most of us deal with everyday ....

She knows that all of those things have been taken into account by the largest frac company in the industry who has the majority of its pilots on the 7&7 and signed a 5 yr contract with its pilots which raised their wages significantly.

She knows how to stick to the issues and avoid personal insults that add nothing to a civil discourse. That is the reason Netjetwife left off the end of his quote.

On a different topic, Congratulations to the Options pilots who will now be afforded the opportunity to vote for their own MEC within 1108. NJW