What is going on at Avantair?

[SCT]

FB3- I agree w/ your post about Glasspilot but you're scaring me on the toe thing.......

Cheers-

 

[Flybet3]

FB3- I agree w/ your post about Glasspilot but you're scaring me on the toe thing.......

Cheers-

HAHAHAHA! Yeah that came out all gay and what not. My bad

 

[fivefootnuthin]

hmm..just read glas's post, still trying to figure out whats so great about it. Peak oil..I suppose this should be the reason why Avantairs pay scale should be always lower than CS or NJ's? I'm getting pretty tired of the "were only in our 3rd year" rationale, especially given the cash i've seen spent on other things, no need to go into details about that. And i guess the 3rd year excuse should also explain why there are too few schedulers, dispatchers, IT people, no Blackberrys for FO's (which is criminal given how email-dependant this company is) etc etc, or why the cowboy mentality thats so entrenched when push comes to shove that it will take a crowbar to pry it out?? Look, I like this place a lot, I do what I can to make things work, and i give credit when credit is due. We have excellent pilots in the pipeline, good guys with good time and skills, and now, finally, the new planes are coming which are desperately needed. But i dont buy for a second the notion that because we're not NJ big that we cant run effeciently or be the best, nor should it mean that we cant be compensated for overcoming seemingly endless scheduling foul ups--pointing out that its not all their fault, given too little training and too many people to move about with too few airplanes to do it with--my point is that we are NOT a start-up any more. We have 25 planes flying, 3 more coming on any time now, and orders for 30 plus more. But until those who run departments and those who supervise those running them wrap their head around the concept that its high time they conducted things in the same manner as the big boys do, we'll never compete with the NJ's and the CS's in this biz, pay-wise or any other way. We sell well because the product in and of itself is good and the price is right, but when the days are too long and the turns are too tight and owners end up late and are frustrated because they cant get answers on the phone, its the crews who keep it together most of the time, doing whatever they can to give the owners the service they bought into. To me that means pay, it means working conditions and rules that are followed EVEN when things get tight, it means safety, it means a lot of things.

Dont get me wrong ...2 yrs ago we WERE a start-up, and we've made great progress, no question. And the pay certainly isnt horrible, at least not for the PICs. But theres clearly a lot of room for improvment, including giving the pilots more of a voice given that the PAC is usually brushed aside when heavy issues come up to bat. The D.O. is a pilot-oriented guy, and I'm certainly glad for that ...but the PAC certainly needs some teeth if its to represent the concerns of the pilot group. These are things that, 3rd year or not, can be addressed ...and should be.
Just my 2 cents

 

[glasspilot]

Well I agree with fivefoot, his post was much better than my peak oil post. I was doing a little "drink and post" the other night. I only brought up peak oil cause I do think it will be to avantairs advantage if and when we start to really feel the screws of it.

FFN is also right that we are not a start up any more. We're are becoming established. My only point is it's still unfair for NJ or UAL or any well established airline to expect us to match or beat their contract when it took years and years for them to get it. (I suspect there is a little bragging involved too.)

Anyway, stay safe, lay off the booze, and take care.

 

[gunfyter]

Also,Its a Pay by Weight world out there. So you have to compare to similar weight airplanes.

 

[fivefootnuthin]

speaking of weights ...any new word about the EMB's? Or is that Tango Uniform now?? If so, I'm bummed ....was lookin forward to those!

 

[Flybet3]

Come On Mbaa!!!!

 

[myrealnameis]

...any new word about the EMB's? Or is that Tango Uniform now?? If so, I'm bummed ....was lookin forward to those!

I wouldn't get my hopes up on that front. I am getting the sense that has all but evaporated, but then again.......

 

[P180puke]

hmm..just read glas's post, still trying to figure out whats so great about it. Peak oil..I suppose this should be the reason why Avantairs pay scale should be always lower than CS or NJ's? I'm getting pretty tired of the "were only in our 3rd year" rationale, especially given the cash i've seen spent on other things, no need to go into details about that. And i guess the 3rd year excuse should also explain why there are too few schedulers, dispatchers, IT people, no Blackberrys for FO's (which is criminal given how email-dependant this company is) etc etc, or why the cowboy mentality thats so entrenched when push comes to shove that it will take a crowbar to pry it out?? Look, I like this place a lot, I do what I can to make things work, and i give credit when credit is due. We have excellent pilots in the pipeline, good guys with good time and skills, and now, finally, the new planes are coming which are desperately needed. But i dont buy for a second the notion that because we're not NJ big that we cant run effeciently or be the best, nor should it mean that we cant be compensated for overcoming seemingly endless scheduling foul ups--pointing out that its not all their fault, given too little training and too many people to move about with too few airplanes to do it with--my point is that we are NOT a start-up any more. We have 25 planes flying, 3 more coming on any time now, and orders for 30 plus more. But until those who run departments and those who supervise those running them wrap their head around the concept that its high time they conducted things in the same manner as the big boys do, we'll never compete with the NJ's and the CS's in this biz, pay-wise or any other way. We sell well because the product in and of itself is good and the price is right, but when the days are too long and the turns are too tight and owners end up late and are frustrated because they cant get answers on the phone, its the crews who keep it together most of the time, doing whatever they can to give the owners the service they bought into. To me that means pay, it means working conditions and rules that are followed EVEN when things get tight, it means safety, it means a lot of things.

Dont get me wrong ...2 yrs ago we WERE a start-up, and we've made great progress, no question. And the pay certainly isnt horrible, at least not for the PICs. But theres clearly a lot of room for improvment, including giving the pilots more of a voice given that the PAC is usually brushed aside when heavy issues come up to bat. The D.O. is a pilot-oriented guy, and I'm certainly glad for that ...but the PAC certainly needs some teeth if its to represent the concerns of the pilot group. These are things that, 3rd year or not, can be addressed ...and should be.
Just my 2 cents

Possibly the most intelligent post I've read in a while. How many times have I said it......improvements have to start from the top. If there's $hit at the top, there's $hit at the bottom. The PAC was nothing but a charade, still is. When's the last time they produced anything to counter concerns?

Thank the product; it's the only reason we still have a j-o-b.

 

[johnsonrod]

Have you guys started training on the Avanti IIs? When are those expected to be on line and flying around the system? I hear that Pro Line 21 is a nice setup....

By the way, what else has been improved in terms of performance and comfort in the Avanti IIs vs. the original?

 

[Noodles]

speaking of weights ...any new word about the EMB's? Or is that Tango Uniform now?? If so, I'm bummed ....was lookin forward to those!

Heard around training that it's dead....

 

[Takeoffroll]

All this talk about salary got me thinking. How would a ten year career comparison look? http://www.airlinepilotcentral.info/airlines/fractional.html shows at least ten year salary scales for each of the fracs CS, NJ and Avantair.

Use the 7 & 7 schedule salary scale under the Light Jet category for NJ to even the playing field due to CS and Avantair have only 7 & 7 to offer and CS and Avantair only have one pay scale.

To further even the playing field shall we factor upgrade time for our 10 year career totals.

Upgrade Time
CS - no less than 2 years,
NJ - no less than 4 years,
Avantair - 1 year for most pilots hired

Citation Shares
$40,000.00
$45,000.00
$72,000.00
$81,000.00
$91,000.00
$93,000.00
$95,000.00
$98,000.00
$101,000.00
$103,000.00
$819,000.00


Avantair
$35,000.00
$53,000.00
$64,000.00
$66,000.00
$72,000.00
$81,000.00
$91,000.00
$93,000.00
$95,000.00
$98,000.00
$748,000.00


Net Jets
$39,000.00
$40,950.00
$43,000.00
$45,150.00
$90,000.00
$92,250.00
$94,500.00
$96,750.00
$99,000.00
$101,250.00
$741,850.00


Per Diem in US
CS - $2.30,
NJ -$1.70,
Avantair $2.00

Overtime
CS – not mentioned,
NJ – 150% HOURLY Rate
Avantair – 150% DAILY Rate (if we go over we get paid for the day)

There are no two companies more diametrical in the fractional aviation arena than NJ and Avantair. Number of pilots, number of employees, number of aircraft, types of aircraft, size of aircraft, certification of aircraft, years in business, union involvement, funding, ad infinitum.

The beauty of America is being able to choose a profession of your own choice and to choose where you would like to practice that profession. Do the research, find the profession and the company that fits you and that you fit into. Will you start on the ground floor and build your way up or will you wait until it’s built before you enter the lobby.

One last thought, if you were standing next to a river with a group of people and you saw someone in obvious need of assistance, nearly drowned being swept by a heavy current, would you be the person on the shore giving words of “encouragement and bringing attention to the situation” or are you the one getting dirty and risking your well being in order to lend a hand with the rescue? Now imagine you are the one in the river… who are you hoping to see on shore?

 

[fivefootnuthin]

Interesting points, Take off ....with a few corrections in order. First, NJ 1st officers are upgrading in roughly 2 1/2 - 3 years, not four. Ran into several who were pretty excited about that fact, and they figure that trend to continue once the final backpay is alloted and the older ex-airline guys say their good-byes. Also not taken into account is holiday pay, which for NJ crews is noteworthy. You also assume a 7-7 instead of reserve bid (which Avantair crews have bid for, but have no idea when its to be implimented), the reserve bid adding considerably to their annual salary.

Clearly, Avantair has improved over what it offered its pilot's pay-wise just a few years ago. No disputing that one. But what of the QOL points, like sick days, for which we have no policy, established min turn around times, min call out times, duty times for a mx day (instead of `the company owns you` that I've actually heard people say) or the use of "late passengers" as a means to justify crews exceeding 14 hrs due to it being "beyond the operational control of the company?" The regs do not list tardy owners in along with mx or weather related issues. Furthermore, having the 1st flight delayed due to late pax does NOT give a blank check to push the 5th flight of that day past 14. Cant find that one anywhere in the regs either. Nor should it be considered beyond the operational control of the company when an owner calls in prior to inform the company that they're going to be late. CS and NetJets crews time out if this occurs; ours do not.

But youre right in saying that all guys have a choice. I guess I'm just not the love it or leave it mentality. If I love it, I do my best to make it better if its not because I love it, and I think most guys subscribe to that. Point and counterpoint is a healthy thing, given that peoples careers are involved. Who knows where the next good idea will come from??
One last counter thought; no one minds jumping in the river to lend a hand in the rescue--many times if need be. But at some point, shouldnt the need for so many rescues be dimished?? And if theyre not, who steps up and takes responsibility for that?

 

[glasspilot]

we win we win!!!!!!!!!

FFN, I was with you before but come on! 2 1/2 year upgrades? I have a bridge in New York to sell you. You can't honestly believe that a new hire at Net Jets will be a captain in 2.5 years. I'll bet a months pay on it. Do the math...NJ has 2500 pilots. They need 5000 pilots to upgrade a newhire today. That means they need to hire 83 and 1/3 pilots per month for the next 2.5 years. Ya think NJ can do it? I thinks not. No, a new hire today will be slinging gear 7 to 10 years from now. You heard it here first.

 

[gunfyter]

Only need 3750 pilots to upgrade. PIC:SIC is not 1:1 .. more like 2:1

In my fleet there are 142 PICs and 77 SICs.

With 1250 more pilots needed... to upgrade ... That would be 42 pilots per month needed to be hired for upgrade in 2.5 yrs. We've been told expect 400 per year for next few years.

 

[fivefootnuthin]

glass, can only tell ya what NJ pilots are telling me. plane of choice, the XL, upgrade in 2 1/2 min. less than 3 as of late. 7 to 10?? you must be thinking of United hahaaha

 

[netjetwife]

That's a very UN level playing field---

Quoting Takeoffroll -- "Use the 7 & 7 schedule salary scale under the Light Jet category for NJ to even the playing field due to CS and Avantair have only 7 & 7 to offer and CS and Avantair only have one pay scale. To further even the playing field shall we factor upgrade time for our 10 year career totals. Upgrade Time CS - no less than 2 years, NJ - no less than 4 years, Avantair - 1 year for most pilots hired"

Not so fast there, Glass...there is a major flaw in the analysis here. Takeoff's logic is extremely unbalanced.. You can't "level" a playing field by giving help in only one area. It isn't the NJ pilots' fault that there isn't a more lucrative schedule offered at the other fracs in the comparison. You took away their earnings in the interest of fairness... and then applied a very conservative upgrade time that further penalized them. According to your logic, the most optimistic time frame should be used to even the field. Actually with your system of ignoring the NJ opportunities to make more money in a larger a/c you should give them the same 2 yr upgrade as CS--if you were really trying to even the playing field.

Per diem is mentioned but no useful info to apply it. Are all 3 fracs providing the pilots with free crew food if they fly over meal times?

Health care is widely considered a significant benefit, or a major expense that comes out of the paycheck if it isn't provided. Many would list it as a critical factor in any good comparison. The same applies to the 401K policy. The NJ pilots have an excellent deal in that area. I think the company added $7, 000 to my husband's 401K when he put a big chunk of his signing bonus into his account--as many of the NJ pilots did. Now that the pay is much better a lot of the NJ pilots will be taking advantage of the 50% match on the first 15%. That adds a substantial amount to their income. As does complete health care coverage, including vision and dental. As the NJ families often reminded one another during their contract battle--it's not just the money. There are other important considerations, as well.

The pay comparison is an example of skewing the data to get the results you want. Perhaps you thought that all 3 companies provided full health benefits, but unfortunately, I don't think that CS does. I don't know about their 401K, but isn't a 50% match rather uncommon?

On the river question--I would certainly expect to see every person on the river bank involved in the rescue effort somehow. It's the moral thing to do and if I were on the ground I'd not hesitate to follow orders, or give them if need be. Working together for a good outcome would be the priority.

 

[P180puke]

Not only is management wasting time here on the board (although it has been effective that they're here in the past) we have yet another name change. Takeoffroll, how's your shiny TBM850 is flying? Also, why was the conference call cut off abrubtly.........again? That's a lawyer written post if I've ever seen one. Sheesh, you can try a little harder to be incognito, can't you?

You can fool some, but not most .

 

[glasspilot]

Not only is management wasting time here on the board (although it has been effective that they're here in the past) we have yet another name change. Takeoffroll, how's your shiny TBM850 is flying? Also, why was the conference call cut off abrubtly.........again? That's a lawyer written post if I've ever seen one. Sheesh, you can try a little harder to be incognito, can't you?

You can fool some, but not most .

I'm not sticking up for anyone here one way or the other;

But why is it so terrible for a management type to come to these PUBLIC boards. I don't expect any privacy here from management. If employees want a private site there are ways for that to come about but this is a public forum. All you need is an e-mail account. And why is it that we, as line pilots, are "surfing the web" but if management comes into this public forum to see what the state of our industry is and see what other opinions are out there they are "lurking"?

On another note, why do people feel the need to publicly "out" someone when they think they know who an anonymous poster is? Right or wrong everyone here uses a screen name and it seems sophomoric and pointless to publicly identify someones real identity to whole world and then yourself hide behind a screen name. If you want to "out" someone at least have the decency to sign your own name.

Just a thought...

 

[rettofly]

Apples to Apples

Not so fast there, Glass...there is a major flaw in the analysis here. Takeoff's logic is extremely unbalanced.. You can't "level" a playing field by giving help in only one area. It isn't the NJ pilots' fault that there isn't a more lucrative schedule offered at the other fracs in the comparison. You took away their earnings in the interest of fairness... and then applied a very conservative upgrade time that further penalized them. According to your logic, the most optimistic time frame should be used to even the field. Actually with your system of ignoring the NJ opportunities to make more money in a larger a/c you should give them the same 2 yr upgrade as CS--if you were really trying to even the playing field.

Per diem is mentioned but no useful info to apply it. Are all 3 fracs providing the pilots with free crew food if they fly over meal times?

Health care is widely considered a significant benefit, or a major expense that comes out of the paycheck if it isn't provided. Many would list it as a critical factor in any good comparison. The same applies to the 401K policy. The NJ pilots have an excellent deal in that area. I think the company added $7, 000 to my husband's 401K when he put a big chunk of his signing bonus into his account--as many of the NJ pilots did. Now that the pay is much better a lot of the NJ pilots will be taking advantage of the 50% match on the first 15%. That adds a substantial amount to their income. As does complete health care coverage, including vision and dental. As the NJ families often reminded one another during their contract battle--it's not just the money. There are other important considerations, as well.

Let me stipulate that, all factors considered, NJ has the best compensation package. Having so stipulated, I must take issue with several points made by NJW.

The purpose of the previous post was to provide an "apples to apples" comparison of base salaries over ten years. Given the hiring and growth cycles, I think a 4 year upgrade expectation at NJ is more reasonable than a 2 1/2 year expectation. Thus, the base pay comparison seems reasonable.

Although NJ has a reserve schedule that offers higher than standard base pay as well as higher base pay in some fleets, it must be mentioned that the reserve schedule is limited to a relatively small percentage of pilots in each fleet. In addition, PIC slots in the fleet(s) that have higher base pay tend to be held by very senior pilots (5-6 years or more). Thus, the salary skew is minimal at best.

 

[gunfyter]

Does Avantair have 7/7 or ... 8 and 6?In that case you would have to compare to the RESERVE schedule. And everyone who wants reserve gets it so far.

 

[rettofly]

Does Avantair have 7/7 or ... 8 and 6?In that case you would have to compare to the RESERVE schedule. And everyone who wants reserve gets it so far.

7/7 being phased in now.

 

[citationsarejun]

What is interesting is that all of us like myself who don't work at Avantair assumed the pay was piss poor based on the post by NJW and others on this thread. Now we know it isn't. It is now to the point that there are arguements over whose pay is better. Bottom line they compare pretty favorably and it is good for the industry that they are around. I like the fact that they are not owned by some corporate monster like berkshire or textron.

 

[netjetwife]

limited to a relatively small percentage of pilots in each fleet.[/i] In addition, PIC slots in the fleet(s) that have higher base pay tend to be held by very senior pilots (5-6 years or more). Thus, the salary skew is minimal at best.

There is clearly a misunderstanding of the NJ Reserve schedule. The contract provides a range of pilots that can bid Reserve--a minimum of 10% in each fleet must be on the Reserve, with seniority governing bidding. The maximum allowed to request the Reserve Schedule is capped at 40%. The 7&7 is more popular so there have been pilots involuntarily assigned to the Reserve to fulfill the 10% minimum, but no one has been denied the higher paying schedule, as Gunfyter pointed out.

It is true that the more lucrative fleets are also more senior. You use the number 5-6 yrs which gives your hypothetical pilot in the comparison 4-5 yrs at that higher base pay. Ignoring the NJ pilots' opportunities to realize greater earnings and not factoring in things like benefits, holiday pay, extended day pay, etc results in more than a minimal discrepancy. Any pilot/frac family considering the 3 would certainly be looking at the total compensation package, particularly given today's high cost of health care and the importance of saving for retirement.

 

[gunfyter]

What is interesting is that all of us like myself who don't work at Avantair assumed the pay was piss poor based on the post by NJW and others on this thread. Now we know it isn't. It is now to the point that there are arguements over whose pay is better. Bottom line they compare pretty favorably and it is good for the industry that they are around. I like the fact that they are not owned by some corporate monster like berkshire or textron.

I said it looked pretty good. If I needed a job... the pay posted would not stop me from applying.

 

[citationsarejun]

Sorry about that gunfyter the "and others" wasn't directed at you. The pay would not stop me from applying either if I didnt like my job.

 

[P180puke]

7/7 being phased in now.

Broken record for over 2 years now.

 

[Flybet3]

Broken record for over 2 years now.

We just put in our bids num-nuts

 

[P180puke]

I'm not sticking up for anyone here one way or the other;

But why is it so terrible for a management type to come to these PUBLIC boards. I don't expect any privacy here from management. If employees want a private site there are ways for that to come about but this is a public forum. All you need is an e-mail account. And why is it that we, as line pilots, are "surfing the web" but if management comes into this public forum to see what the state of our industry is and see what other opinions are out there they are "lurking"?

On another note, why do people feel the need to publicly "out" someone when they think they know who an anonymous poster is? Right or wrong everyone here uses a screen name and it seems sophomoric and pointless to publicly identify someones real identity to whole world and then yourself hide behind a screen name. If you want to "out" someone at least have the decency to sign your own name.

Just a thought...

Who's "outing" anybody? No names were mentioned but if they understand the reference, then they already know the post source. But when someone THOUGHT they were identifying me on another post, mentioning initials and all of what turned out to be an innocent bystander; where was your defense for me Gunfyter? No love?!

Anyway, you're correct, everyone has the right to be here. But I've been around long enough to know that overtime pay came from those that finally just refused to fly after the 11-12-13-14th+ day or so....with 0 compensation for it. "We'll take care of you" I believe was the anthem then. Never was. Talks of a 7-7 for years now. Benefits? Still working on that one. No sickday schedule, no vacation schedule. Pay raises ONLY happened under the umbrella of a union scare. Period. The PAC has also faded away.

Just think management should direct their time towards improving the company proactively as opposed to reactively from threats instead of concerning themselves with us peons (sp?) here.

A pay raise from below average to average is an improvement. But provide reasonable insurance for my family, a vacation and sick day policy, 7 and 7 schedule and maybe a 401k of sorts to help me save for my kids' futures like every other respectable firm, and I'll be impressed. I'll help ya beat your chest. So far, history has proven words are just words.

 

[citationsarejun]

P180 puke do you currently work at avantair? I would hope you would be aware of the bids. what gives