What is going on at Avantair?

[citationsarejun]

My pilot friend at Avantair has been there 3 years and makes $72,000.00. Whats the issue with pay?

 

[gunfyter]

I don't know. That looks like a pretty good number to me.

 

[netjetwife]

Gunfyter, I'm surprised at you.... Don't we need a little more info?

First we have to know what position we're talking about--PIC or SIC?
How many days worked in a year? Is that base pay or total? What are the benefits like?

Has your friend been there a full 3 years already, and is now working on the 4th year? Or is s/he on the 3rd year now?

3rd Year NJA, SIC on the 7&7 = $42,998..... Reserve = $51,030

4th Year NJA, SIC on the 7&7 = $45,147..... Reserve = $53,582

3rd Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $71,250......Reserve = $84,560

4th Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $80,625......Reserve = $95,687

This is base pay, without per diem or OT. NJA pilots have very good medical benefits, including dental and vision. Excellent 401K match and paid vacation---plus, it's all in writing. That said, I agree that the FO pay is still too low, and the domicile system too restrictive. The pilots have made progress but clearly there is more work to be done.

 

[citationsarejun]

He told me he just started his third year, flew about 6 months as an sic then over a year and a half as a pic. I think that is the major benefit they upgrade faster and get pic pay. The sic wages are low but not the pic wages. I will try to get in touch with him to get more information.

 

[jonjuan]

Gunfyter, I'm surprised at you.... Don't we need a little more info?

First we have to know what position we're talking about--PIC or SIC?
How many days worked in a year? Is that base pay or total? What are the benefits like?

Has your friend been there a full 3 years already, and is now working on the 4th year? Or is s/he on the 3rd year now?

3rd Year NJA, SIC on the 7&7 = $42,998..... Reserve = $51,030

4th Year NJA, SIC on the 7&7 = $45,147..... Reserve = $53,582

3rd Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $71,250......Reserve = $84,560

4th Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $80,625......Reserve = $95,687

This is base pay, without per diem or OT. NJA pilots have very good medical benefits, including dental and vision. Excellent 401K match and paid vacation---plus, it's all in writing. That said, I agree that the FO pay is still too low, and the domicile system too restrictive. The pilots have made progress but clearly there is more work to be done.

Your above chart will become a bit skewed if/when upgrade at NJA goes to 6-7 years. Aircraft delivery will slow down, despite santulli's projections. I guess then you can work on raising FO rates. Of course, the senior pilots on property will also want more pay. Oy vey....

 

[netjetwife]

3rd Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $71,250......Reserve = $84,560 (18 days a month)

Then we look at the PIC payscale and compare the schedule/days worked. While we wait for more info on benefits and if your friend's pay was total or base, any of the Avantair pilots want to jump in and help with our comparison?

Absolutely, low FO wages become a major problem when the upgrade is longer than 6 months to a year. That's why I am critical of the NJA CBA in that regard and see FO pay as an area needing significant improvement.

I don't think any professional pilot should make less than $50K, especially when so many other workers with far less skill make in the 40s without leaving home or being responsible for lives....

 

[P180puke]

He told me he just started his third year, flew about 6 months as an sic then over a year and a half as a pic. I think that is the major benefit they upgrade faster and get pic pay. The sic wages are low but not the pic wages. I will try to get in touch with him to get more information.

He must be counting per diem, no?

3rd yr. capt. is 64k unless:
1) You count perdiem......not hardly accurate, hell I eat MORE than my perdeim most days.....OR

2) He's kissing the correct arse, which I've heard helps in some cases.

 

[glasspilot]

3rd Year NJA, PIC on the 7&7 = $71,250......Reserve = $84,560 (18 days a month)

Then we look at the PIC payscale and compare the schedule/days worked. While we wait for more info on benefits and if your friend's pay was total or base, any of the Avantair pilots want to jump in and help with our comparison?

Absolutely, low FO wages become a major problem when the upgrade is longer than 6 months to a year. That's why I am critical of the NJA CBA in that regard and see FO pay as an area needing significant improvement.

I don't think any professional pilot should make less than $50K, especially when so many other workers with far less skill make in the 40s without leaving home or being responsible for lives....

Reading the last few posts of yours I have a few questions;

1. Why do you insist on comparing your company to a 3 year old company? Do you go up to 3rd graders and make fun of them cause you can read and they can't yet?

2. Why the 50K benchmark? Did someone tell you that or did you come up with it by yourself? I'm thinking 50K is a totally abstract number that sounds nice to you cause it's around the bottom of your pay scale. Gives you something to shoot for. I bet if the bottom FO at NJ made 80K then you'd magically think 85-90K is the least a professional pilot should make. Go back to my last thread and you'll see my reference to loads of pilots who make MUCH less than your 50K. I know 727 FOs that make 35K. Regional pilots at 17K, 135 pilots at 12K, 121 sup. at 25K, not to mention the THOUSANDS of pilots on furlough. I don't see you yelling at them. Why is avantair so bad that we get all your attention?

3. I'm sure you have a reason for being so interested in your husbands industry but why do we pilots at other companies have to defend ourselves to you? Why don't you go get a hobby or something. I'd bet a slice of pizza that it drives your husband crazy to come home from a week of flying and have to listen to you recap the state of aviation to him. Whatever, he signed up for it when he married you. What did the rest of us do to deserve your meddling?

 

[Kingairrick]

Roflmao

 

[netjetwife]

1) I compare job descriptions, and firmly believe that those doing comparable jobs should make comparable wages.

2) A knowledgeable NJ FO told me that he felt he should make at least $50K as a starting wage, to go up quickly from there. As stated, far too many other workers who possess much less skill make as much or more than a lot of frac pilots. I think that is wrong. Again, having responsibility for lives should count for quite a bit. Regional pilots know that I encourage them to stand up for themselves as well. I fully support those who do, as they know. I talk about the frac industry because those are the wages and working conditions that affect my family and NJ friends.....as well as those who post here that I support in their efforts to raise the bar. I've discussed the situation with many pilots. I guess you've just missed those other conversations. But surely you've seen me cheer on the Options pilots, encourage Flex pilots, and congratulate the CS pilots when they got a pay raise? If I missed anyone, consider my references to frac pilots to include your company...

3) Many see it as support; if you don't please feel free to put me on your ignore list. I discuss the issues in the industry because I'd much rather see pilots pull one another up than have management continue to hold their wages down. One frac company's payscale is measured against another , like it or not. If all the pilots will take a stand against low wages the industry can improve significantly.

 

[SCT]

NutJetWife, once again you show how little you know about aviation and business in general. The more idiotic statements you write the less creditability you have on FI.

How can you compare the pay scales between NJ and AvantAir? One company has 100s of jets and thousands of pilots. And the other is a small start up company flying turboprops. It's apples and oranges, women. Plus, historically flying turboprop a/c has always paid less then jets. Plus, I'm sure AvantAir charges less money then NJ is capable of charging for an entry level jet share. I know in your perfect socialist world, every pilot would be making 250K and live where ever.

NJW, you are clueless.

 

[flylowman]

Netjetwife why do we just start a new thread, "Why Netjetwife wants to tell us that Netjet is better than Avantair." For the people who are here looking for info your continuing ranting and bragging just kills the moment. Hay I have a better idea. Go cook something and shut up!

 

[glasspilot]

deleted and reposted below. why won't they let me delete a post?!?!?!!?

stupid FI.

 

[glasspilot]

2) A knowledgeable NJ FO told me that he felt he should make at least $50K as a starting wage...........

Well you can tell your "knowledgeable NJ FO" that in the real world supply and demand dictate prices and pay. If there were only 1,000 pilots that could do the job today then all of us would market ourselves to the highest bidder and we'd make $500,000 a year to start. In that scenario other people would see how great it is to be a pilot and they'd take lessons and soon there would be hundreds of thousands of pilots all wanting $500,000 to start. But guess what, they wouldn't get that cause now there would be more supply for the same demand. Pilots would start at say...$50,000. And then, in this world of upset pilots and there wives, say there was a disaster that made people want to fly less while the supply of pilots remained the same. Well, pilot pay would go drop again as happens when demand drops and supply stays the same.

The point is that it has nothing to do with how much training you have received, how responsible you are, how professional you are or how much your wife complains. It's economics 101. The pendulum swings and there ain't no stoppin it. Now you and your "knowledgeable NJ FO" can realign your expectations and drop your $50K to start fantasy. Hell, I was on a United jumpseat once and the CA (757) explained to me that a pilot should make a house a year and a car a month. Not a great house or car, but a nice, comfortable house and car. That's just as abstract as your 50K but shows how no matter what you make you always think you should make more.

 

[jonjuan]

While I agree in theory with what NJA wife is attempting to do, I don't agree think she has taken into account the entire picture.
It's great that she is a crusader for standing up for the "little guy" who would otherwise be trampled by those with deepest pockets, i.e. those who make the decisions upstairs. Without a unified voice, those who have the gold, make the rules. It has been the mantra of part 121 pilots for years. For that, I admire her.
One item it appears to me at least, that she is missing, is the fact that this is still a competitive industry in a capitalist society. Small companies certainly can't directly compete head to head with the entrenched 800 pound gorilla. Net Jets is a brand name and is a sales and marketing machine. As it stands today, a rich guy/gal will typically flock to NetJets because they are the CocaCola of the industry. Their name alone means that they can command a premium. They can pass along this premium to their employees. If a new comer or much smaller competitor in the industry with the exact same product attempts to charge the exact same price, do you really think they will be successful, i.e profitable? Me thinks, no way. One companies success is anothers failure. Look at what's happening to the major and regional airline industry. All the companies whose labor unions trumped one another for pay (UAL, DAL), (ACA, Comair).
One way to drive competitors out of business is to lower fares, i.e. WN to AAA and JBLU to everyone in New York. Another way is to drive their costs such that they are unable to compete. If every fractional provider had Net Jets labor costs today, I'd bet that 2 would be out of business within a year. Get rid of your competition and then charge whatever you please. Look at what Southwest Airlines tried to do to AAA in Philly.

Either way, good luck.

 

[Flybet3]

He must be counting per diem, no?


1) You count perdiem......not hardly accurate, hell I eat MORE than my perdeim most days.....OR

FAT ASS!

 

[Flybet3]

Reading the last few posts of yours I have a few questions;

1. Why do you insist on comparing your company to a 3 year old company? Do you go up to 3rd graders and make fun of them cause you can read and they can't yet?

2. Why the 50K benchmark? Did someone tell you that or did you come up with it by yourself? I'm thinking 50K is a totally abstract number that sounds nice to you cause it's around the bottom of your pay scale. Gives you something to shoot for. I bet if the bottom FO at NJ made 80K then you'd magically think 85-90K is the least a professional pilot should make. Go back to my last thread and you'll see my reference to loads of pilots who make MUCH less than your 50K. I know 727 FOs that make 35K. Regional pilots at 17K, 135 pilots at 12K, 121 sup. at 25K, not to mention the THOUSANDS of pilots on furlough. I don't see you yelling at them. Why is avantair so bad that we get all your attention?

3. I'm sure you have a reason for being so interested in your husbands industry but why do we pilots at other companies have to defend ourselves to you? Why don't you go get a hobby or something. I'd bet a slice of pizza that it drives your husband crazy to come home from a week of flying and have to listen to you recap the state of aviation to him. Whatever, he signed up for it when he married you. What did the rest of us do to deserve your meddling?

OOOHH HELL NO!! MUTHAFU**A YOU ARE COLD AS ICE!! I WILL NOW CALL YOU "MR. FREEZE"

 

[netjetwife]

NutJetWife, once again you show how little you know about aviation and business in general. The more idiotic statements you write the less creditability you have on FI.

How can you compare the pay scales between NJ and AvantAir? One company has 100s of jets and thousands of pilots. And the other is a small start up company flying turboprops. It's apples and oranges, women. Plus, historically flying turboprop a/c has always paid less then jets. Plus, I'm sure AvantAir charges less money then NJ is capable of charging for an entry level jet share. I know in your perfect socialist world, every pilot would be making 250K and live where ever. NJW, you are clueless.

Sifting thru your post.... I found something relevant ...hope springs eternal...

I highlighted the part of your post I wanted to discuss further. How much difference is there between the Avanti (?) and the Ultra as far as the pax would notice? If it is significant then the case could be made for paying the pilot less---maybe. On the other hand, does an Avantair pax want a pilot any less experienced than NJ pax demand? The adage "You get what you pay for" isn't something people want to apply to their safety is it? Let the company charge less for the plane but a comparable price for a pilot and make the safety/experience point to the owner. I doubt that they'd want to cut corners on pilots.

So tell me, when planes buy fuel in the FBOs do the smaller companies with fewer planes get a discount because they're new to the industry? Isn't the fuel a cost of doing business that all companies must pay regardless of size? Why then should pilots have to subsidize newer companies when no other aspect of the business does? Why don't more pilots have the attitude that their salaries are a cost of doing business? When the NJ pilots adjusted their way of thinking they were able to get a much improved contract.

GP, the frac industry is growing, not shrinking, so demand for the service is increasing. Why should the pilots be left behind financially? Something in your post caught my eye---"Now you and your "knowledgeable NJ FO" can realign your expectations and drop your $50K to start fantasy". I'm quite sure that all the first year NJ FOs on the reserve schedule are glad that didn't happen! Those pilots now have a base pay of $46, 286, plus very good benefits. Many are making over $50K when per diem, holiday pay, and OT are counted. My husband and other NJ pilots worked to get the pay brought up significantly.

Jonjuan, have you noticed that among professionals there seems to be a fairly set price for their services? Doctors, dentists, lawyers, etc all charge fairly close to the same for an office call. For that matter, so do auto garages and plumbers. The idea of a market price is very common. One frequently hears expressions like--the going rate. I don't think the notion of a minimum rate for a pilot's wages would surprise any of the frac owners. Yes, the NetJet name alone can command a premium, but I don't think owners at the other frac companies expect to get comparable transportation for a significantly lower price. Perhaps the frac companies need to do a better job of educating owners if that's the case. If need be, the pilots can. You don't get what you don't ask for. Informational picketing helped the NJ pilots. As for comparing the frac business to the airlines, I hear the the NJ pilots say that you can't do that because the industries are so different and the pax base certainly is. Comparing NJ costs isn't too helpful because the company has been notorious for wasting money... The pilots did the company a favor by demanding professional compensation. They're starting to make efforts to run the company more efficiently now they can no longer balance the budget at the expense of the pilots.

I believe that frac pilots share more common ground than differences. I think that the industry is big enough for a variety of companies, and that the pilots would gain from working together to support one another in their efforts to gain better contracts. I saw firsthand what the NJ pilots did to improve their situation, and I firmly believe that any of the rest of you could do the same thing. Flight Options is in the process right now. Flex is taking the first step. If those two are successful, it will help to strengthen the industry and make things easier for smaller pilot groups to also get the going rate. I appreciate those of you who focused on the issues and avoided personal insults. Best Wishes to you and yours, NJW

PS It's all about standing up for what you deserve--the going rate. Whatever means available to your group that works for you--has my support.

 

[citationsarejun]

sorry i didnt post sooner i had to do some flying at some point. My friend in his 3rd year at Avantair earns 72,000.00 he is a training captian. There is an $8000 raise for being a training captain. He says he choose the job because in his third year at netjets he would still be an SIC earning significantly less than he does now. He really likes it there. Hope that sheds some light. That is good pay I think.

 

[C425Driver]

That is good pay I think.

That is not good pay. I know this because NJW says so and whatever she thinks is what the rest of us must think and accept. Outside opinions are not welcomed or relevant and there is no need to argue with her, as you will be completely wrong unless you wholeheartedly and unconditionally agree with her. So stop thinking like you do and send in your union card so she can get her commission.

C425Driver