What is going on at Avantair?

[Flybet3]

Based on common sense and human nature, I'm suggesting that a balanced approach is wiser in the long run. In your profession, training is very expensive so a high turn over rate due to pilot dissatisfaction and low morale is a high cost that could be avoided. It's common knowledge that employees that feel respected and valued are more productive and loyal. It is also inherently unfair to balance the budget and/or grow the company at the expense of one group of employees. Evidence of that happening is seen in the fact that Avantair pilots are receiving sub-par wages (less than industry standard) for their skills and contribution to the company. That situation, left unchecked, will breed resentment which in turns leads to lowered productivity and increased attrition. That is counter-productive and does no one any good. Sometimes managers need to be forced to make sound decisions for the future. Anyone can get caught up in the plan of the moment and become oblivious to the consequences--that is simply human nature. Until the grumbling gets too loud they'll continue to ignore it, right or wrong.

But don't take my word for it....just look at NJA. They finally settled with the pilots and profits are up, pilots are pleased, and the union and the company are working on joint projects that are estimated to save millions. It's like a 3-legged race; the team that works together the best comes out ahead. None of us needs a business degree to understand that. NJW

NetJetWife, I like ya...but come on, you need to know when to stop and just back-off a bit. Goodness

 

[netjetwife]

Flybet3, I find it difficult to do justice to complicated subjects with 30 second sound bites.... My PMs from friends at Avantair tell me that there are serious issues facing the pilots, in spite of their recent good news.

Thanks for the friendly advice, though... and Good Luck! I'm looking forward to the next report.
NJW

 

[Flybet3]

Flybet3, I find it difficult to do justice to complicated subjects with 30 second sound bites.... My PMs from friends at Avantair tell me that there are serious issues facing the pilots, in spite of their recent good news.

Thanks for the friendly advice, though... and Good Luck! I'm looking forward to the next report.
NJW

I agree, there are some things going on that I just hope will get fixed SOON... I agree with you on some stuff, but you know....

 

[netjetwife]

Yes, I know.... that's why lots of pilots PM me. So they can still look macho on the board....

Seriously, I'm well aware that my position is unusual, but I do feel that it is important to give the family perspective, even if the gender and role difference does sometimes make you guys roll your eyes at me....

You guys may think my posts are just a tad over the top sometimes, but no one can doubt my sincerity. And face it, you frac pilots can use all the support you can get... I look forward to watching your progress.

Cheering for you from the sidelines,
Netjetwife

 

[Dilligaff]

FlyBet,

With each post she demonstrates again and again how little she knows about our company. High turnover rate due to pilot dissatisfaction and low morale? Until reading her post I didn't realize we had that problem here. And to think I've been flying up our seniority list and didn't even know it! I thought we had a very low turnover rate (but what do I know, I only work here). That usually happens because people are satisfied with their jobs and aren't looking elsewhere. Amongst the people I see on a daily basis, I have been encountering good morale because they enjoy it here. Anyway, I can't wait to read more of her posts so I can learn more about my company from someone who doesn't work here 'cause she's an expert on everything that happens at Avantair!

Dilligaff

 

[CherryBomb]

Consider this...

While everyone has made some good points consider this:

I seem to remember an airline from way back that when they started they couldn't even pay their pilots with real money, instead the company paid them with stock options. Some people got angry and left complaining of the substandard treatment. Others stuck with the company, I even know of one guy who used all the stock options to wallpaper his garage!! But a few years later those stock options came off the wall and he, among others, were rapidly becoming millionaires. All because of a bunch of big brown and orange 737's in Texas...


Another company back from the same time period; when they started pilots complained about the same harsh treatment and substandard pay we hear about today. No one wanted to fly boxes all night in little Falcon 20's with purple tails. At one point pilots were using their own money to fill the tanks of these airplanes!!! As a result many people quit. But there were a few that stayed and they too are now millionaires. All because of a bunch of big box hauling purple tails in Memphis...



My point: Take time to slow down and look at what you do for a living. Pilots have an extremely vital role in the development, stability and overall health of their company.

Instead of thinking about ME ME ME, think about the company. Avantair is in a growing stage. Its a young company. We as pilots need to concentrate, at least for now, on how we can help this company grow. Our investment in sweat equity into our company should pay off nicely in the future. If all we do now is complain about our needs and our pay, then all we do is drag down the company and in-turn drag ourselves down.

I am getting damn tired of this ME ME ME attitude Americans as a whole seem to be adopting. Don't believe me? Look at the divorce rate.

Look at the American car company unions that forced their management to pay people upwards of 40k a year to sweep floors!!! Yeah, they made that big money for a while, now their company is bankrupt...




Just give it some time, take some pride in your job and your company, and see how your investment pans out. If a couple years go buy and it isn't working out, then fire up that word processor and get out your resume.


And NO, Im not management, Im just a lowly FO...

 

[corpflunkie]

Very good post CherryBomb. So many people on this board seem to forget that Rome wasn't built in a day. A new company cannot start out paying their employees industry leading pay and grow at the same time unless you have WB's deep pockets behind you. Comparing our situation to NetJets is apples and oranges. BTW how well were NJ pilots paid when their company was only a few years old??? I would be lying if I said our pay couldn't be better, but if you compare it to most turboprop payscales, it's not bad. Most of the people take pride in the company, and are willing to compromise some to ensure long term growth and prosperity.

 

[netjetwife]

Dill, please follow the thread more closely and assign my posts the proper context. It was never intended as a current snapshot, but rather what can, and often does, happen when managers (in any company) take their employees for granted and don't reward them for their contribution along the way. I'm just suggesting that loyalty is a two-way street and the pilots should see signs of that along the way. The precursors of the more problematic situation I described often go unnoticed until late in the game. Are the pilots treated with respect and considered a valuable part of the company, is their input sought and seriously considered. Are they given real answers to their questions or canned responses that rarely vary?

I apologize if my posts are unclear; I thought Avantair pilots understood that I was speaking of conditions that frac pilots share, in general, while trying to learn more about your situation. My posts are motivated by concern. I hate to see pilots from any company get left behind when they are clearly helping to build the industry.

CB, gave examples of successful companies whose owners/managers treated the employees with respect and rewards along the way. I think stock options would be a great idea for Avantair pilots. I agree that in our country a selfish attitude often prevails. Frequently it is seen in corporate America as the worker does more for less and the executives get wealthy. Asking for industry standard wages doesn't make the pilots greedy and expecting management to meet their basic obligations to their current workforce before they concentrate on expansion is protecting the long range well-being of the company lest the negative conditions that I mentioned becomes the norm rather than the exception. It happened at NJA. The company got behind in hiring because they couldn't attract the pilots they needed at the low wages offered. Now they can but the training pipeline is clogged and money is not spent efficiently paying pilots to sit at home waiting for their turn in training. That could have been avoided by settling the contract much earlier.

CF, the NJ pilots got left behind financially when the company grew. Their families suffered while they watched NJA sponsor yacht regattas, golf matches, and horse races. They became very bitter and conditions that I mentioned in my previous post were seen frequently. There was definitely a feeling that they had been short-changed as the broken promises piled up. Even with the new CBA there remains, for some, deep feelings of mistrust. NJA certainly can't be listed with CB's examples of companies that grew successfully while taking care of its people.

I would hate to see history repeat itself at the expense of Avantair pilots and their families. When the NJ pilots look back the signs were there: a lack of respect, treating pilots like machines, postponing the reward time after time with promises that never materialized. Yes, the NJ pilots finally got a substantial pay raise but only when they stood up for themselves and demanded that the company treat them like the professionals they are, prior to that they watched the profits earned from their hard work get funneled into expansion in management and the market while they were told "next time". Things only improved for NJ pilots when they called in the IOUs. At that point they learned they had waited too long. Their retro bonus felt like a slap in the face to the pilots who had invested the most time in the company. Fair warning: the longer you let the debt go unpaid, the lower your chances of getting a full return for your investment.
Best Wishes,
Netjetwife

 

[Dilligaff]

Cheery and Corp,

Excellent posts. I think both your posts reflect the current atmosphere at Avantair. It's far from a perfect place but it's got so much potential and it's getting better every day. I think the majority of us who work there see that and are looking forward to a bright future.

Dilligaff

 

[Flybet3]

BTW how well were NJ pilots paid when their company was only a few years old??? I would be lying if I said our pay couldn't be better, but if you compare it to most turboprop payscales, it's not bad. Most of the people take pride in the company, and are willing to compromise some to ensure long term growth and prosperity.

Well I remember when NJ fo's were starting at what? 28K a year? I remember when asking a NJ pilot about working there they would say "Why? dude, you're better off working somewhere else." I can find sooooo many posts of NJ guys trash talking their company, and people saying "Why would anyone work for piss poor wages". Now the same people that said these things are the ones saying "Hey!! I JUST GOT AN APPLICATION!!!...How long does it take to hear back for the interview!!??" Two faced rats! I think this company has potential and if some people have left it has been for reason other than what is being said. One Captain left b/c he got his corporate dream job...He was here for a good couple of years, and liked the time he was here.

 

[Dilligaff]

Dill, please follow the thread more closely and assign my posts the proper context. It was never intended as a current snapshot, but rather what can, and often does, happen when managers (in any company) take their employees for granted and don't reward them for their contribution along the way. I'm just suggesting that loyalty is a two-way street and the pilots should see signs of that along the way. The precursors of the more problematic situation I described often go unnoticed until late in the game. Are the pilots treated with respect and considered a valuable part of the company, is their input sought and seriously considered. Are they given real answers to their questions or canned responses that rarely vary?

I apologize if my posts are unclear; I thought Avantair pilots understood that I was speaking of conditions that frac pilots share, in general, while trying to learn more about your situation. My posts are motivated by concern. I hate to see pilots from any company get left behind when they are clearly helping to build the industry.

CB, gave examples of successful companies whose owners/managers treated the employees with respect and rewards along the way. I think stock options would be a great idea for Avantair pilots. I agree that in our country a selfish attitude often prevails. Frequently it is seen in corporate America as the worker does more for less and the executives get wealthy. Asking for industry standard wages doesn't make the pilots greedy and expecting management to meet their basic obligations to their current workforce before they concentrate on expansion is protecting the long range well-being of the company lest the negative conditions that I mentioned becomes the norm rather than the exception. It happened at NJA. The company got behind in hiring because they couldn't attract the pilots they needed at the low wages offered. Now they can but the training pipeline is clogged and money is not spent efficiently paying pilots to sit at home waiting for their turn in training. That could have been avoided by settling the contract much earlier.

CF, the NJ pilots got left behind financially when the company grew. Their families suffered while they watched NJA sponsor yacht regattas, golf matches, and horse races. They became very bitter and conditions that I mentioned in my previous post were seen frequently. There was definitely a feeling that they had been short-changed as the broken promises piled up. Even with the new CBA there remains, for some, deep feelings of mistrust. NJA certainly can't be listed with CB's examples of companies that grew successfully while taking care of its people.

I would hate to see history repeat itself at the expense of Avantair pilots and their families. When the NJ pilots look back the signs were there: a lack of respect, treating pilots like machines, postponing the reward time after time with promises that never materialized. Yes, the NJ pilots finally got a substantial pay raise but only when they stood up for themselves and demanded that the company treat them like the professionals they are, prior to that they watched the profits earned from their hard work get funneled into expansion in management and the market while they were told "next time". Things only improved for NJ pilots when they called in the IOUs. At that point they learned they had waited too long. Their retro bonus felt like a slap in the face to the pilots who had invested the most time in the company. Fair warning: the longer you let the debt go unpaid, the lower your chances of getting a full return for your investment.
Best Wishes,
Netjetwife

So are you saying that we should blindly join your union based on your generalizations? A preemptive strike, so to speak? Are you also saying that we are taken for granted by our leadership and treated like machines? I was not aware I was being taken for granted and treated like a machine. Again, you demonstrate how little you know about our company that your are so concerned about.

For the record, I AM treated with respect by my managers and fellow employees. My opinions are sought out, welcomed, and taken seriously. When I have questions and concerns and I take them to various managers, I am given clear, uncanned answers and solutions. And you are right about one thing: loyalty is a two-way street. My company has been loyal to me and I am loyal to them. I've worked for a few companies who were not loyal to me and I will not give my loyalty to any organization that treats me with disrespect. Fortunately, I haven't had to worry about that here. All of these statements are based on my first-hand experience and observations here at Avantair. What first-hand experience do you have here, NJW? I'll answer that question for you because you won't: You have absolutely no first-hand experience or knowledge of what goes on here. You have a few alleged PM's from a few Avantair employees - that's it! And from those you have concluded that we NEED your union? It was said before, we spoke loudly when we collectively did not send in our union cards yet you brush off that little fact whenever it is mentioned.

My FO last week brought up a great piont: We have a large number of ex-airline pilots here as well as a few ex-airline mehanics. All of them (me included) are former union members and a few of them were union officers. In other words, we have a large contingent of pilots who know what unions are for and know when they are needed based on our past experiences. If our working conditions deteriorate and we need a union, we can and will collectively decide to do that - we have the experience and know-how to make it happen. But it will be on our terms, not yours, not NetJets, soley on our terms. And before you accuse me of it, I am not speaking for the pilot group. I am reiterating what I see and hear every day when I am at work. I see a group of pilots who are glad to be here and be part of the ground-breaking years of Avantair. As with any group of people there will always be a few disgruntled emplyees, but the vast majority here truly enjoy it.

Dilligaff

 

[netjetwife]

If you are going to engage me in dialog, please have the decency to allow me to answer the questions you ask--for myself. My choice of name makes it patently obvious to all pilots that I have no first-hand, personal knowledge of flying for any frac company. My knowledge of Avantair comes from PMs exchanged with 4 pilots from there, and a general interest in learning where Avantair fits into the frac industry.

I "brush off" nothing; each time you make the point that a card drive failed I acknowledge that fact with the following response--It is not uncommon for work groups to be slow at getting organized and frac pilots have a distinct disadvantage in that they are so spread apart and lack actual, rather than virtual, crew rooms. That said, I have repeatedly made clear that the end result of a strong industry whose standards are evenly applied throughout, should be a common concern to all our frac families--regardless of the method used to achieve that objective. It should surprise no one that I personally think well organized groups have the best chance of obtaining a fair/good written contract, but I will happily congratulate every frac pilot group that reaches that goal, no matter how that got there. I do think we have sufficiently covered this issue, now, don't you?....

I am pleased to hear that the Avantair pilots have a talent pool in their midst. But my enthusiasm is tempered by complaints I've heard frac pilots make in regards to retired airline pilots. Many seem to think those pilots need the money less and are less concerned with an industry-par contract. That said, I do realize that every group must be judged on its own merits. Additionally, it is normal for unhappy workers keep a low profile when there isn't a union to protect their rights. We all have different perspectives based on the conversations we have with others. I'm not at all surprised that you don't hear pilots express a desire to organize. Those pilots are very cautious, especially in the beginning. Between the two of us, who do you think they're more likely to tell that they would like to see a union on the property...

I sincerely hope things go well at Avantair and that the pilots there receive due compensation for their professional contribution to the company. That will be right for them good for the frac industry, as a whole.
Good Luck!
NJW

 

[Dilligaff]

Your impression, not knowledge, of our company comes from less than 3% of our pilot group? You consider that to be an adequate representation of the working conditions at Avantair? If it is so desperately bad here, why did less than 10 people send their cards in? (I've now heard two numbers: either 6 or 9 people sent them in). Since I don't know, why don't you enlighten me with all of the atrocities that are going on at my company that should compel me to join your union. I'm sure you know more about it than I do - again, I only work here but you exchanged PM's with 4 people!

About your response to the failed card drive: you do brush it off with the same "canned responses that rarely vary". Isn't that something that you implied was a bad thing? I suppose it's okay when you do it, right? (In case you haven't noticed, you are full of canned responses that rarely vary. The 'rising tide' crap got real old a long time ago!) Why is it too much for you to even think that the anonymous union card drive failed miserably because, as a whole, we don't feel that a union is warranted at Avantair? And if it was anonymous, why didn't more of us send our cards in if we need a union so bad? Why can't you acknowledge that what is fair and reasonable treatment and compensation for us is up to us and only us? The answers to those questions lie in the fact that you are wearing blinders that only let you see a union contract for everyone and you will not relent until we are all under your union's umbrella. Fortunately, those of us who work here understand when a union is needed and whe one is not.

Like corpflunkie said a new company can't expect to get paid industry leading wages and still grow the company. There has to be sweat equity involved in the beginning of any company and that's where we're at and we all knew it when we got hired here. I absolutely agree that we should be compensated better, but only when we are firmly established and such wages will not bring us down. I also didn't see the answer to corps question when he asked you how well NJ pilots were paid in the early days. I'll bet it was similar to our wages, no? And, yes, you have covered the goals that you have chosen to impose on us - ad nauseum!

You obviously haven't spent much time around pilots outside of your house (do you get out of the house?). Disgruntled pilots complain to anyone and everyone - especially the ones they're flying with. If there was a group of pilots who were rallying for a union they would gather support from other pilots while they're flying. I know this from experience at another company that was trying to form a union. As for who someone who is interested in forming a union would contact, I would hope they would contact the union itself and not some cheerleader who has no true connection to the union itself.

I'm glad that you wish us well, but you are wasting your time and effort with this union drive. If and when we collectively decide that we want a union, we will follow the proper channels and I'm sure those channels don't involve you.

Dilligaff

 

[BSlapped]

Ouch!

 

[BoeingBaller]

Wow that was a double dose of STFU....

 

[Famous Dave]

Netjetswife, what do YOU do for a living?

 

[netjetwife]

FD, I'm a stay home mother with young children. I firmly believe that considering how much frac pilots are gone their families need to have one parent home full time with the children. Furthermore, pilots are professionals and should be able to give their families the QOL that other professionals take for granted. That includes the option of having one parent stay home full time with the children.


Dilligaff, the number is now up to 5, not bad for a non-pilot associated with another frac company... My observation is based on general facts-- unless the Avantair pilots have a written contract that gives them industry standard compensation and working conditions there is a clear case for saying that improvements are needed. Can you please explain to me why your group deserves less than NJ or CS pilots? You're frac pilots, too, and your job description is surely about the same, isn't it? Yes, obviously, I'm an outsider looking in, but I do understand what being a frac pilot entails and how the business works. Avantair is classified as a frac company isn't it? So why would the pilots there not want pay comparable to what the majority of frac pilots receive?

Broken promises and empty assurances are a bad thing, an opinion that was explained thoroughly on a condition I cannot change was simply constructive dialog that one wouldn't expect to change in a short time.... (Personal note to Magic: this is a "wall moment")

Dill, it is becoming suspicious that you refuse to acknowledge that I have repeatedly said that I will support and congratulate frac pilots who improve their pay and working conditions by whatever means available to them. If your in-house advisory committee brings in a good contract I will personally post a Congratulations ecard on the board. When one looks at the status of aviation careers these past years, it is not surprising I am concerned that frac pilots will be left behind by management as the industry grows. That general unease applies to all frac pilots, not just Avantair. I've tried to discuss the condition of the industry --in general--with Avantair pilots because I was curious about your company and saw some posts on the board that reminded me of the NJ pilots' during their contract battle. Some of you appreciate the interest and support. If you don't, feel free to put me on your ignore list.

My apologies to you and CF if you felt I didn't answer your question. I saw the number 28K somewhere and it is correct. That is what my husband made as an FO just 3 years ago. Things were very bad, as I did explain, until the new contract was won last year. NetJets was already huge and had expanded world-wide when the FO wages qualified our son for the reduced price lunch at his public school. We had friends feeding their children with food stamps! Please don't act like it was only in the early days that NJ pilots were underpaid... The NJ pilots put in tons of sweat equity but they weren't rewarded for their patience and help until they started picketing. Unfortunately their story is the norm, and SWA and FedEx the exception. While I certainly hope you guys wind up in the minority, I don't think reminding your company sooner than the NJ pilots did would be a bad idea.

"....cheerleader who has no true connection to the union itself". I have several thoughts about your personal opinion.

First thanks for noticing my efforts to cheer pilots on in their fight for professional compensation, but I must ask--what, or who, do you think the union is? 1108 pilots will tell you that they finally realized that THEY are the union. The leadership recognizes that families play a vital role in supporting the pilots in their efforts to gain a contract and improve things for the group. That makes us all connected to the union. What is your definition of "connection" and how do you know that I don't meet it? I am rather more involved than most NJ wives...

 

[Noodles]

NJW,

I appreciate the time you spend trying to convince my coworkers about a union. However, there are some people, no matter what you say, you will never sway. Personally, I don't disagree with you, but there aren't enough other people at this company that feel that way too. Yet......

 

[glasspilot]

I know the difference between avantair pilots and NetJet and CS pilots;

We are 3 years old.

We are happy.

Our outlook seems great.

I don't recall NetJets having a contract with $48K FOs rammed down it's throat at the 3 year mark. No, NJ was allowed to grow at it's own pace and NJW wasn't pestering the pilot group about it. Now that NJ has 2500 pilots and 400 aircraft it's a little unfair to demand that we (with 100 pilots and 25 airplanes) be like you. I've seen ALPA work. I've seen the teamsters work. Both have vast flaws. Sometimes you need a carrot and sometimes you need a stick. Right now we're doing fine with carrots. If the time comes that we need a stick then we will decide that.

Stop telling me I'm unhappy. Stop telling me I'm underpaid. Stop telling me my QOL is sub-par. I've seen many companies and, trust me, this one is by far the best so far. There are scads of pilots out there who have it BAD. We have it pretty damn good.

Major Airlines: Most in bankruptcy. Pensions gone. 40% pay cut if they kept their seat, 70% pay cut if they got displaced, 100% pay cut if furloughed.

Regionals: They are in the midst of cutting each others throats right now. Numerous whipsaw airlines out bidding each other for the lowest pay. Everyone wants to work for free so they can, "just get 1000 PIC" and move on. No one has bothered to tell the masses that there is nowhere to "move on". Hell, GulfStream CHARGES their FOs to fly and their CAs to upgrade!

Cargo: FedEx and UPS are doing all right for now, but FedEx has cancelled meet and greets till next year. UPS is retiring a fleet and I'd expect a freeze in hiring for awhile. All the rest suck! They treat you like dogs and beat you into the ground. Part 121 supplimental has no rest requirements. The companies are shady with Mx. My company didn't even put water or lavs on the plane.

Part 135: Low pay, bad qol.

Military: Good chance of going to the middle east IF you can get the job. Pay is weak and, well, you might die.

To sum it up, we're okay. I'm happy to be here. You can stop worrying about us and focus on some pilots who really need your worries.

 

[C425Driver]

Glass,

Great post! I think that sums it up about as well as it can be.

Thanks!

C425Driver