What a NO vote means.

[auspac]

what is the current feeling at SKYW about ALPA... Will it pass ??

Tough call. I think it will be fairly close but will not pass. I believe (my opinion - no proof) that the ALPA supporters make up a very vocal minority on these boards and on our SAPA boards. I have found most of the members of the OC to be very professional, unfortunately some of the most ardent ALPA supporters do more harm to their cause than good (I believe there is evidence enough of that in this thread.) Also we have a fairly apathetic pilot group. When we have elections for SAPA positions the voter turn out is usually pathetic. On our SAPA forums there are 1382 members out of 2700 pilots. It makes me wonder if the other 1300+ pilots just don't care about SAPA, or just don't care.

I have brought up the ALPA issue with most of the F.Os I have flown with and have found more that say they wont vote than will. I have flown with FOs that came to SkyWest from Mesa, Pinnacle, Air Wisconsin, ACA, ASA, Express Jet and Mesaba. Most of them had some positive things to say about ALPA but all of them said things were better at SkyWest. Some of them want ALPA but more of them do not. Of course this is a very small sample.

Personally, I haven't voted yet and am leaning towards not voting. It is a big decision for me because I may well be a SkyWest lifer. I have been treated fairly by management in the 8 years that I have been here. Things could obviously be better, and just like the next guy I want the most amount of pay for the least amount of work, but so far I haven't been convinced that ALPA will improve things. I haven't seen much evidence of it at other regionals. We have a couple more ALPA informational sessions and I want to attend at least one more before the vote is over.

 

[Nevets]

incident.. medical... yeah that stuff happens, a good friend of mine just got word that hes diabetic, its sad. Hard to deal with, however, chief pilot... checkrides... SkyWest is not out to get you! I know DD was screwed over by a chief.. That chief needed to be put in check from what I know.. youve got me on that one. apla is an insurance policy, but they are NOT what many pilots at SkyWest think they are.

Exactly, stuff happens. Like a car accident and your home burning down. But I bet you have insurance for those things. Who's to say there wont be another chief pilot down the road that needs to be put in check? Checkrides or any training event, at an ALPA carrier you have a training review baord after the first failure and sometimes after the second failure. And the pilot is able to grieve the termination decision. Skywest does NOT have that. I know because I have a friend who was terminated after IOE without as much as a courtesy face to face meeting to explain why. He was just told, over the phone, that they were terminating his training.

I'm not saying that Skywest or anybody is out to get you. I'm saying that stuff happens. You never know when its going to happen to you.

If people think that ALPA is a get out of jail free card, then yes, you are right, ALPA is NOT that.

 

[jea]

Exactly, stuff happens. Like a car accident and your home burning down. But I bet you have insurance for those things. Who's to say there wont be another chief pilot down the road that needs to be put in check? Checkrides or any training event, at an ALPA carrier you have a training review baord after the first failure and sometimes after the second failure. And the pilot is able to grieve the termination decision. Skywest does NOT have that. I know because I have a friend who was terminated after IOE without as much as a courtesy face to face meeting to explain why. He was just told, over the phone, that they were terminating his training.

I'm not saying that Skywest or anybody is out to get you. I'm saying that stuff happens. You never know when its going to happen to you.

If people think that ALPA is a get out of jail free card, then yes, you are right, ALPA is NOT that.

Right on... Ill mention this... I was a street hire DHC8 ca at mesa years ago... I wanted as well as a few others in my class to be fos for at least a month. the company said no we need captains.. alpa said we can do nothing to help you.. you need to be here 1 year.. I busted my ride- yeah that sucked.. called alpa again.. sorry there is nothing we can do. the company offered more training and another ride.. all in all i resigned for a few reasons- going through a divorce, and me thinking denver pic 121 with no prior 121 was a bad idea.
at the time it was my dream job! I still love the dash its a great airplane! but things didnt work out thank goodness... my point is- alpa (granted it was mesa) didnt do a thing....

 

[Nevets]

Tough call. I think it will be fairly close but will not pass. I believe (my opinion - no proof) that the ALPA supporters make up a very vocal minority on these boards and on our SAPA boards. I have found most of the members of the OC to be very professional, unfortunately some of the most ardent ALPA supporters do more harm to their cause than good (I believe there is evidence enough of that in this thread.) Also we have a fairly apathetic pilot group. When we have elections for SAPA positions the voter turn out is usually pathetic. On our SAPA forums there are 1382 members out of 2700 pilots. It makes me wonder if the other 1300+ pilots just don't care about SAPA, or just don't care.

I have brought up the ALPA issue with most of the F.Os I have flown with and have found more that say they wont vote than will. I have flown with FOs that came to SkyWest from Mesa, Pinnacle, Air Wisconsin, ACA, ASA, Express Jet and Mesaba. Most of them had some positive things to say about ALPA but all of them said things were better at SkyWest. Some of them want ALPA but more of them do not. Of course this is a very small sample.

Personally, I haven't voted yet and am leaning towards not voting. It is a big decision for me because I may well be a SkyWest lifer. I have been treated fairly by management in the 8 years that I have been here. Things could obviously be better, and just like the next guy I want the most amount of pay for the least amount of work, but so far I haven't been convinced that ALPA will improve things. I haven't seen much evidence of it at other regionals. We have a couple more ALPA informational sessions and I want to attend at least one more before the vote is over.

To be honest, one of the biggest problems for pilots in other airlines that are represented by ALPA is apathy. I think its just a trait of pilots in general. I don't know if its because they just don't care, are too lazy to care, are too new to know any better (SJS), or other more reasonable reasons. I too think it will be very close but I'm confident that it will be a victory for Skywest pilots.

Many pilots that have been at other ALPA carriers or look at some of those carriers will incorrectly lay blame on ALPA for the failings of their respective management. ALPA cannot force a management to have a sound business plan or tell management how to conduct its business. That includes not being able to make management not be hostile to its pilots with blatant contract violations. In those instances, all ALPA can do is defend its members during grievances and arbitrations. For example, it wasn't ALPA's fault that Indy Air went out of business. And its not ALPA's fault that Jonathon Ornstein violates the contract day and night. But both of those circumstances bring down the morale and pilots being pilots look for someone to blame.

As for you, you and many others have been treated fairly by your management. But many others haven't. One of your pilots had to go to court to get his job back recently and there are many other instances that I've personally heard and I'm sure you have heard first hand also. And just think of the countless others who just took it. Also, you never know when JA is going to call it quits. What if the next Ornstein takes over? If you vote ALPA in, you will start negotiating a contract. If that means that you only put what you have know in a legally binding enforceable contract, you will be much better off without losing anything. But of course ALPA is much more than just a contract as I'm sure you have heard.

I'm pleased to hear you are open minded. Many of the pilots I have talked to have been open minded as well. I'm going to be in LAX tomorrow (10/30) and on Nov 1st. I'll be glad to answer any of your questions or concerns over a cup of coffee.

Fly safe and hope to see you there.

 

[Nevets]

Right on... Ill mention this... I was a street hire DHC8 ca at mesa years ago... I wanted as well as a few others in my class to be fos for at least a month. the company said no we need captains.. alpa said we can do nothing to help you.. you need to be here 1 year.. I busted my ride- yeah that sucked.. called alpa again.. sorry there is nothing we can do. the company offered more training and another ride.. all in all i resigned for a few reasons- going through a divorce, and me thinking denver pic 121 with no prior 121 was a bad idea.
at the time it was my dream job! I still love the dash its a great airplane! but things didnt work out thank goodness... my point is- alpa (granted it was mesa) didnt do a thing....

Ahh, I see. I'm sorry to hear about that. Although it sounds like its worked out for you so far. I'm glad to hear that.

Yeah, one thing about new hires/probationary pilots and ALPA is that although you benefit from all the provisions of the contract, the only protection you do NOT get is the ability to arbitrate. Seems like that was your case. I don't know but I'm sure those cases are far and few between.

 

[CFIT]

Checkrides or any training event, at an ALPA carrier you have a training review baord after the first failure and sometimes after the second failure. And the pilot is able to grieve the termination decision. Skywest does NOT have that. I know because I have a friend who was terminated after IOE without as much as a courtesy face to face meeting to explain why. He was just told, over the phone, that they were terminating his training.

Nevets, An ALPA carrier is NOT gauranteed a training review or a check ride review or any review for any reason, it is something that has to be negotiated during the contract negotiations. It is paid for with negotiating capital and the group has to determine what it is willing to give up, pay, scheduling, something, nothing is free.

As far as your friend being terminated during training (I know you wont believe me) it is the absolute last option utilized. If you think about it the company has already invested alot of expense, time and resources to the trainee. It is a good program, certainly not perfect, but has a high demand for skill and application. It certainly isn't for everyone, nor should it be.

It is a safety failure if ALPA demands everyone to the cockpit.

 

[Bus-Driver]

PBRstreetgang,
I know jea very well, have worked with him at multiple jobs. I know that, whatever you say, he is going to do just fine in the industry. I think it is pretty pathetic that you have to threaten people based on their opinions. perhaps it's you that should leave and do something else, you obviously aren't happy and are too scared to even post who you are. If you are unhappy with SKW the way they are, move on. I hear Mesa is hiring.
Bus-Driver

 

[auspac]

Nevjets,
If more ALPA supporters were like you I think the drive would have a better chance. You bring up valid points without insulting others. Unfortunately I wont be at LAX this week but will try to talk to someone in DEN or ORD.

 

[Nevets]

Nevets, An ALPA carrier is NOT gauranteed a training review or a check ride review or any review for any reason, it is something that has to be negotiated during the contract negotiations. It is paid for with negotiating capital and the group has to determine what it is willing to give up, pay, scheduling, something, nothing is free.

As far as your friend being terminated during training (I know you wont believe me) it is the absolute last option utilized. If you think about it the company has already invested alot of expense, time and resources to the trainee. It is a good program, certainly not perfect, but has a high demand for skill and application. It certainly isn't for everyone, nor should it be.

It is a safety failure if ALPA demands everyone to the cockpit.

Actually, when you have a contract, you have a procedure for resolution of disputes. Even for terminations.

I know that terminations during training is a last resort. Its the same at XJT (whether the company likes it or not). I understand that its a huge expense to train someone and not be able to use that asset. Which is why it baffled me that someone gets terminated without as much as an explanation after completing their required number of hours for IOE. Mind you that this guy never had to retrain on any FTD or SIM. I mean, not even a, hey is everything okay on the home front, type of conversation. As a matter of fact, they didn't have the courtesy to call him back. He had to initiate the call and got the run around. I'm almost sure that Skywest was just thinking, "we fixed the glitch" with this guy.

By the way, he has successfully completed his 121 training at another repeatable carier with flying colors. Needless to say that if Skywest would have had a legally binding contract, I doubt this would have happened like that. Apparently he had a high enough demand for skill and application for his new carrier.

 

[Nevets]

Nevjets,
If more ALPA supporters were like you I think the drive would have a better chance. You bring up valid points without insulting others. Unfortunately I wont be at LAX this week but will try to talk to someone in DEN or ORD.

I know that the few that I've met on the Organizing Committee are all pleasant and intelligent. I do sometimes get a little heated especially on this on line forums when I'm talking about something that matters to me. So hopefully that doesn't come out the wrong way here.

Anyways, you can email me if you have any other questions.

 

[SkyNation]

Nevets,

what auspac said.

also, you only have your buddy's side of the story. of course there are always two sides, and the company story I'm sure would add to the discussion. I mean, why fire a guy you've spent all that money to train? spite? I'm sure there is more to it, and something compelled them to do it. we need FOs badly, and they're not going to boot someone for nothing.

 

[yellowfever]

Right on... Ill mention this... I was a street hire DHC8 ca at mesa years ago... I wanted as well as a few others in my class to be fos for at least a month. the company said no we need captains.. alpa said we can do nothing to help you.. you need to be here 1 year.. I busted my ride- yeah that sucked.. called alpa again.. sorry there is nothing we can do. the company offered more training and another ride.. all in all i resigned for a few reasons- going through a divorce, and me thinking denver pic 121 with no prior 121 was a bad idea.
at the time it was my dream job! I still love the dash its a great airplane! but things didnt work out thank goodness... my point is- alpa (granted it was mesa) didnt do a thing....

I knew several guys in the training department back in the 90's. One was the head of their EMB120 program. Those guys would actually brag about their failure rate...I think that is very sad. Do you blame ALPA for this?

 

[jea]

I knew several guys in the training department back in the 90's. One was the head of their EMB120 program. Those guys would actually brag about their failure rate...I think that is very sad. Do you blame ALPA for this?

I certainly dont blame alpa for it.. i hope it hasnt come across that way... what im saying is alpa didnt do anything there, what could they do here? When I was in groundschool here, a guy in class was having a hard time, they worked and worked with him to get him through, there was 2 others that were just falling apart in the sim... Skywest took the time, spent the money to get these guys through... SkyWest is far superior in this area than any other ive heard of.... without alpa.. I just hope that people are getting all the facts....

 

[samballs]

what has the result of these discussions been in terms of your pay vs. your counterparts at ASA, Comair, AWAC, etc? I'd bet you and I make more in the end.



are you suggesting that we can 'strong arm' our management with ALPA on board?

My pay cut in BANKRUPTCY brought me to your level. Think about it I had to take a paycut to make what you make. If we didn't have ALPA it would have been worse, and if we didn't have FLT ATTS it would have been even worse. IF we didn't have JC Lawson on our MEC it would have been even better, unfortunately hes' a puss and people at OH seem to follow him. But that is the pilots decision who leads us.

 

[samballs]

27242... whats yours? chicken $hit...

Do you always say Chicken sh!t