Were is the General Sherman on here?

[LeeRoyJenkins]

the Pilot "Negotiations" were irrelevant, GK need to blame FAPA, with SWAPAs help...AFTER he knew the jig was up! He couldn't admit that the almighty WN got snookered in a dual with a bunch of corn-fed Indiana shysters with GKW consulting on there side! Tragedy for both sides, but the management games continue...f9ers have lost either way....

Incorrect.

After SWA got involved there became a bit of a bidding war between SWA and Republic. When GK realized that the amount to purchase became too much to stomach he then bowed out and decided to let Republic have Frontier.

It's called business and in retrospect it looks like GK made a wise choice. I also think that Republic isn't to thrilled with the drag on earnings (or lack thereof) that Frontier has become.

If GK wanted Frontier bad enough he would have gotten them. And there was only ONE entity who had the control of it. The Bankruptcy Court. No one else had anything to do with it.

 

[DonVerita]

So your saying a job at Airtran was equal to a job at Southwest? Southwest is older, larger, and a much more difficult job to acquire. Pay and QOL differences are huge. How is that possibly equal in your world?

There wasn't a chance in hell of DOH. If you thought that going in, you were delusional.

A more difficult job to acquire? YGTBSM bro. If you mean more difficult to acquire if you refuse to pay for a job (ie; type rating) then you would be correct. Plenty of people have interviewed at ATN, more than once in some cases, and still got turned down. As for DOH, you must be the one who is delusional if you can't see that DOH would be the "fair and equitable" part of the Process Agreement that any rational person would view as perfectly acceptable. How is my QOL, living in our ATL base supposedly trumped by your QOL with me having to commute out of ATL to one of your bases? ATN CA's make more than SWA F/O's, so thanks to your seniority grab, I now have to take a pay cut.

I never applied to SWA, but wound up there anyway through no action of my own because GK signed a piece of paper. So why am I and just about every other Capt. at ATN supposed to give up our CA seats and 30-35%seniority? Please answer that and try to leave the arrogance out of it. Keep in mind that ATN was/is a fully fuctional, profitable, Major airline which was also expanding. GK clearly saw the value in combining the two into what now could be argued is a Legacy carrier.

Pay may be here today, but not tomorrow. Seniority is forever.

 

[K-Mart]

ATN CA's make more than SWA F/O's

Not before Sept 2010. At least not the majority of em.

Guy i feel bad for ya but its time to move on. Why do you still have the same bunch of clowns in your union running the NC and other positions. Id get rid of those fools.

 

[waveflyer]

Bc seniority is all AT has ever had to offer Swapa - you guys got 9 more bases and a much better contract and stability- and don't pretend that AT was an equal job to Swa- not close and you know it. It was simply a better fit for YOU. YOU may not have ever aspired to Swa but a LOT of your peers did. Individual situations can always be called into account. What about the dozens- yes, dozens of air tran pilots who left AT for Swa and lost all kinds of seniority? Is your situation greater than theirs, Don? Or should they just "get over it", while you don't?

Do YOU know why people don't like Lebron James so much? Bc he uses a lot of "I" and "Me"- its all about him-
Hate to break this, but Swa is not about any "one" of us. Quicker we all learn that the better

 

[madjack]

So DV,

If you were a SWA pilot (vs AAI pilot) you would have been ok with DOH?...I know if I had been a AAI pilot I would have been pushing for the best deal I could get...

 

[DonVerita]

Bc seniority is all AT has ever had to offer Swapa - you guys got 9 more bases and a much better contract and stability- and don't pretend that AT was an equal job to Swa- not close and you know it. It was simply a better fit for YOU. YOU may not have ever aspired to Swa but a LOT of your peers did. Individual situations can always be called into account. What about the dozens- yes, dozens of air tran pilots who left AT for Swa and lost all kinds of seniority? Is your situation greater than theirs, Don? Or should they just "get over it", while you don't?

Do YOU know why people don't like Lebron James so much? Bc he uses a lot of "I" and "Me"- its all about him-
Hate to break this, but Swa is not about any "one" of us. Quicker we all learn that the better

Real easy for you to take that stance from the Press Box seats looking down. I wonder how you'd feel if the roles were reversed.

So a few junior F/O's left at some point or another for SWA. Big deal. They didn't have much seniority to lose in the first place.

When I speak of "I", it means "us", as in every CA here who is taking massive hits on Seat, Pay, QOL. Just about everyone is highly pissed off, from the top to the bottom, of how the "Fair & Equitable" part, in conjunction with all the lies has come down on us from the SWA side. We bear 95% of the burden, you lose a little bit of domicile bidding power and that's all. Huge difference.

Every one of our CA's worked very hard to earn their seats, and for those to be stolen from us and given to your F/O's along with our earned seniority is straight up B.S. "One LUV"? "Golden Rule"? We haven't seen it.

 

[waveflyer]

And most of our competitors don't see it either. Your hard work was rewarded by being bought, and getting to keep your job instead of being bled to the unemployment line. You want a list of the places thats happened to? SWA is a business like every airline-( think delta would have given you a better deal?)- and that warrior spirit "thing" DR likes to joke about, isn't a joke. We compete and negotiate tough. If you don't like the leverage you had in the situation, maybe you should have aspired to a larger, more secure carrier that's not a takeover target.
The simple fact is that you took a risk joining a smaller carrier and putting your eggs in that basket. Your toughness and professionalism got you bought. That's a good thing if you have an ounce of aviation perspective. And in the end, the upside far outweighs the short term bad.
But there is no appeasing being a baby. Look for the positive, or go quit and do something where you can. Bc no matter how "pissed" you get, or how "pissed" my side gets("you know? The ones like me who didn't get anything out of this deal except a 1000+ pilots younger or real close in age placed over the top of them) it doesn't change the business side of this.

I'm not religious, but your guys main problem comes down to Luke 14:10. Getting bought and wanting everything and the top seat at the table is the cause of your frustration- not what's actually happened.

 

[waveflyer]

Duplicate

 

[johnsonrod]

no kidding. johnsonrod is a 20 something rj kid who was obviously littered well after the dukes were on tv, otherwise she would have known not to disparage the real general lee. she is trying to get into good graces with the dal general lee to suck up and get a job.

There goes Juan again, acting like the dip$hit he is. When I was referring to door-less I meant people were unable to OPEN the doors - so, they entered through the open windows - just jumped through. I remember that show well - I even remember the "cousins" who took over for Bo and Luke while they were negotiating higher contracts. Sadly, I also remember the offshoot show in which Ennis joined the LA police force - did not last long.

Quit being such an idiot Juan - nobody respects your lame posts.

 

[redflyer65]

And most of our competitors don't see it either. Your hard work was rewarded by being bought, and getting to keep your job instead of being bled to the unemployment line. You want a list of the places thats happened to? SWA is a business like every airline-( think delta would have given you a better deal?)- and that warrior spirit "thing" DR likes to joke about, isn't a joke. We compete and negotiate tough. If you don't like the leverage you had in the situation, maybe you should have aspired to a larger, more secure carrier that's not a takeover target.
The simple fact is that you took a risk joining a smaller carrier and putting your eggs in that basket. Your toughness and professionalism got you bought. That's a good thing if you have an ounce of aviation perspective. And in the end, the upside far outweighs the short term bad.
But there is no appeasing being a baby. Look for the positive, or go quit and do something where you can. Bc no matter how "pissed" you get, or how "pissed" my side gets("you know? The ones like me who didn't get anything out of this deal except a 1000+ pilots younger or real close in age placed over the top of them) it doesn't change the business side of this.

I'm not religious, but your guys main problem comes down to Luke 14:10. Getting bought and wanting everything and the top seat at the table is the cause of your frustration- not what's actually happened.

This ^^^^

Don,

You seriously think that getting hired at AAI on July 1st,XXXX would be equal to being hired at Southwest on the same date? No one in this industry would believe that. It's a tall tale. The lifetime earnings potential was massively different.

You would have kept your beloved Captain seat, domicle, AND received Southwest Captain pay for 10 friggin years if your MEC didn't pull the plug. You can blame them, not us. That's what your NC negotiated for.

As Wave alluded to, in most industries, the smaller company employees MAY be offered jobs at the acquiring company. When your company gets bought your not entitled to anything! Look at other industries and let me know. Most times the employees are let go and the office closed. It's called eliminating a competitor. Happens everyday in the country.

If I worked at Airtran I wouldn't have been a bit surprised that it was bought. The way to ward that off is to become big enough to not make it economical. I'm sorry you thought Airtran was a major airline that was too big to be bought, it wasn't.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

When I speak of "I", it means "us", as in every CA here who is taking massive hits on Seat, Pay, QOL.

I made over $200,000 in 2011 as an eight year F/O. Tell me again how your Captains are taking a massive hit in pay?

 

[canyonblue]

So why am I and just about every other Capt. at ATN supposed to give up our CA seats and 30-35%seniority? Please answer that and try to leave the arrogance out of it.

Because your airline was acquired by my airline, not arrogance, just a fact. If it weren't for Bond/McDildo you would have been stapled.

Keep in mind that ATN was/is a fully fuctional, profitable, Major airline which was also expanding.

Not as well as you think, based on the AAI cities we are dropping. If it was worthwhile, Southwest wouldn't close it.

Here is a list of the HOT SPOTS you expanded to and we didn't:

Huntsville/Decatur

Key West

Pensacola

Sarasota/Bradenton

Des Moines

Wichita

Lexington

Portland

Flint

Grand Rapids

Branson

Rochester

White Plains

Charlotte

Akron/Canton

Dayton

Allentown

Harrisburg

Memphis

Richmond

Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport

 

[General Lee]

There goes Juan again, acting like the dip$hit he is. When I was referring to door-less I meant people were unable to OPEN the doors - so, they entered through the open windows - just jumped through. I remember that show well - I even remember the "cousins" who took over for Bo and Luke while they were negotiating higher contracts. Sadly, I also remember the offshoot show in which Ennis joined the LA police force - did not last long.

Quit being such an idiot Juan - nobody respects your lame posts.

Now that is funny. Juan really is an idiot.


Bye Bye--- General Lee

 

[DonVerita]

I made over $200,000 in 2011 as an eight year F/O. Tell me again how your Captains are taking a massive hit in pay?

Wow...and to do that you must have worked just about every one of your days off.

I made more than that last year as a CA with plenty of days off.

 

[canyonblue]

I made more than that last year as a CA with plenty of days off.

Sure you did.

 

[DonVerita]

This ^^^^

You would have kept your beloved Captain seat, domicle, AND received Southwest Captain pay for 10 friggin years if your MEC didn't pull the plug. You can blame them, not us. That's what your NC negotiated for.

As Wave alluded to, in most industries, the smaller company employees MAY be offered jobs at the acquiring company. When your company gets bought your not entitled to anything! Look at other industries and let me know. Most times the employees are let go and the office closed. It's called eliminating a competitor. Happens everyday in the country.

Wrong again.

SLI #1, which the MEC voted down for the POS it was, would have eliminated all 717 CA seat protections if there was a reduction of even 1 airframe from that fleet. Yet SWA kept saying all along that they were going to keep that plane until natural lease expiration beginning in 2017 and going through 2023; and kept saying this even while they were trying to get Delta to sublease them.

As for "smaller companies"...that may apply to anything outside of airlines. But with airlines there are laws in place such as Allegheny-Mohawk and Bond-McCaskill to see to it that the pilots of the acquired airline do not get sent to the street; a concrete item that you still fail to understand.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

Wow...and to do that you must have worked just about every one of your days off.

I made more than that last year as a CA with plenty of days off.

Averaged 15 days off a month.

Had I been a Captain I would have cleared over $300,000

You obviously know nothing of our contract or QOL at SWA. Stay angry all you want but your angst should go towards your MEC. They are they ones that did this to you.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

As for "smaller companies"...that may apply to anything outside of airlines. But with airlines there are laws in place such as Allegheny-Mohawk and Bond-McCaskill to see to it that the pilots of the acquired airline do not get sent to the street; a concrete item that you still fail to understand.

The AAI pilots voted for this by a margin of 85%. Thus throwing Bond-McCaskill out the window.

You could have sent this to binding arbitration but elected not to.

All your group had to do was vote no.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

Don,

I will also remind you of what one of your pilots stated here not all that long ago.

Please buy AAI! Even Staple. Anything to put us out of our misery. The MESA with boeings has gotten worse by the day.

I know 800 +- FO's who would take a staple today. About half the CA's would get a pay raise as WN FO's and the other half have hugh ego's that will say no to anything.

Quite simply get over yourself Don. You are not near as important as you think you are.

 

[Whine Lover]

" (AAI Pilots) would have kept your beloved Captain seat, domicile, AND received Southwest Captain pay for 10 friggin years if your MEC didn't pull the plug. You can blame them, not us. "

Absolutely correct.

Frontier's debacle was the same at the core of it....They would be SWA pilots now, and not Republic flunkies, IF their MEC had not pulled the plug.


The only blame for any of these debacles lies squarely on the respective MEC D-Wads, who's egos apparently exceeded their IQ's.

In both cases...SWA made a MORE than generous offer and the MEC's decided to negotiate themselves out of most, or all of it, without letting the Membership determine their own course.

You can't help "STUPID"......." Hi, would you like to join my Secret Club and stop living in that trailer, and could I put a million dollars in your bank account?"

"OH NO YOU DON'T!...Don't try and fool around with me, I'm smart and I have a title and everything....besides we are also skilled negotiators. NOW, how about I join your club in 2-5 years, and you give me $300,000 instead?

Genius.

And, if you are an AAI pilot and have even an OUNCE of animosity towards your new EMPLOYER....you are about as smart as your MEC.


Thank God you guys even got a second offer .... after your MEC biting the hand the tried to feed you ( very well ) the first time.


YKW

 

[redflyer65]

Wrong again.

SLI #1, which the MEC voted down for the POS it was, would have eliminated all 717 CA seat protections if there was a reduction of even 1 airframe from that fleet. Yet SWA kept saying all along that they were going to keep that plane until natural lease expiration beginning in 2017 and going through 2023; and kept saying this even while they were trying to get Delta to sublease them.

As for "smaller companies"...that may apply to anything outside of airlines. But with airlines there are laws in place such as Allegheny-Mohawk and Bond-McCaskill to see to it that the pilots of the acquired airline do not get sent to the street; a concrete item that you still fail to understand.

Don,

Good luck with the anger dude. I know you didn't ask for this and neither did we. I get the fact that you may have never applied to SW or even wanted to be here. Your NC negotiated deal one. They saw merit in it. You should have been able to vote on it....whether it would have passed or not will never be known now. They short circuited your choice. Gary gave his best offer up front. Plenty here said the second offer would pale in comparison. As Whine said, you could have voted SAI2 down as well. Offer three would have been worse. The Airtran MEC hosed every single one of you.

RF

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Because your airline was acquired by my airline, not arrogance, just a fact. If it weren't for Bond/McDildo you would have been stapled.

Its because of human underwear crayons like you that Bond/Mcdildo was created. The beauty of the situation is as your senior SWA Capts, stay in their seats until stroking out, you will be swinging gear for a long time, enjoy it tool bag....

 

[Roomwithaview]

Man! Feelin' the WON LUV over here! Actually, your MEC got you better seniority by voting NO. If you would've voted NO again Kelly probably would've sweetened the pot even more. SWAPA would've gladly acquiesced. (they always do whatever Kelly wants you will soon find that out) Apparently SL-10 was the magic formula since both sides overwhelmingly voted for it. (I voted NO)

Since you guys were given so many sweetheart deals I heard SWAPA's going to craft the next TA to reward RSW pilots for giving up so much to help Gary's tranny deal go through.

'bout freaking time.

 

[SWA Bubba]

By the way--

This is exactly what I meant by Dan Roman, callsign "Chef," stirring the pot. He started this thread, simply to get the same usual suspects to have the same argument all over again, raising everyone's blood pressure, pissing everyone off, over something none of us had much control over and something none of us can change. And, of course, it accomplishes nothing.

I guess it had been a while, and the arguing and finger-pointing had died down a little, and he must have been bored. So he starts it anew with a General Sherman analogy. Nice one, Chef! I'm proud of you. You should be proud of yourself as well. You even managed to work in your whole "Warrior Spirit" running joke. Still funny the 432nd time in a row!

Bubba

 

[Dan Roman]

Because your airline was acquired by my airline, not arrogance, just a fact. If it weren't for Bond/McDildo you would have been stapled.

Which demonstrates why we do need a certain amount of Government regulation. It actually benefits both parties when you think about it. Obviously there is no moral justification for thinking you should be able to acquire another healthy airline and do whatever you want to the employees. How would you feel if DAL acquired you and stuck all of you on the bottom of the list? But also, if SWA was allowed to use their little "Warrior Spirit" mantra and just totally screw over the AirTran folks with a staple they would have created a cancer in the company that might have been enough to ruin it. We'll see if what they have already done has a negative impact.

 

[Dan Roman]

^^^^^^^ for you Bubba!

 

[Dan Roman]

And just so you know, I'll say again, you know who I work for. Hence my reason for posting so much on the one airline acquiring another subject.......and of course grown men going around talking about having a "warrior spirit" as it applies to flying commercial airliners around is too easy of a target, although not as good as airline pilots using fighter pilot nicknames I might add!

 

[redflyer65]

Why don't any other industries have Bong-McCatstinks/A-M language? Is it because it's 'more unfair' in this industry than the others?

 

[Dan Roman]

It always amazes me when grown men can use little high school pet slurs when trying to describe something they don't agree with or don't understand. Bong, Dildo? really guys, it makes you sound stupid and does nothing to make your case.
You think it's so bad having legislature that protects you if your company is acquired? Suppose 5 years down the road SWA finds itself being squeezed by Spirit, Jetblue, Frontier, VA etc on the LCC side and finds it hard to compete with the full service legacy's. You would be alright with UAL acquiring you and just stapling you? Not saying it will happen, but anything can happen in this industry. No one can predict what will happen, the only thing for sure is there are no sure things and we all live in glass houses. It's nice there is at least some protection facing an unknown future.
Are you also against regulations that protect retirement funds, or you think it's was fine that UAL could torpedo theirs and than award 800 million in management payouts?

 

[redflyer65]

Just injecting a little humor Dan. Actually the first part of your reponse made me laugh as well.

But in all seriousness, why just the airlines? Why not the auto industry, or an appliance company like Whirlpool, or John Deere. There is seniority and pension involvement at those place too I bet.