Were is the General Sherman on here?

[dicko]

I'm glad you liked the second deal Dicko. My friends at AAI didn't.

You misunderstand ...... Again. I liked neither.

 

[DonVerita]

Only a small group of southwest pilots are seeing any positives from all this on our side. Most FO's like myself have already started sliding backward in domicile seniority so it's not like we are reaping huge benefits from your situation.

Really? Not reaping huge benefits. Let's just see about that.

SWAPA, with the complicit help of SWA management, first stole huge amounts of ATN seniority. Why? Think you're better than us? Why not just straight DOH? Then, as if that wasn't enough, they pillage all of our 737 Capt. seats only to have management come back for another round of raping and this time get rid of all the 717's which causes the loss of most of those Capt. seats. We won't even mention the B-Scale pay, the loss of domiciles, the lower retirement contributions (11.5% down to 9.3%) or the immense financial harm from unrealized future earnings at the Capt. level.

So while you and some of your SWA compadres may be upset about sliding down a bit in domicile seniority, you fail to mention all of the SWA F/O Capt. upgrades you have coming your way 100% at the expense of ATN Captains whose seats have been confiscated.

 

[Cometman]

Really? Not reaping huge benefits. Let's just see about that.

SWAPA, with the complicit help of SWA management, first stole huge amounts of ATN seniority. Why? Think you're better than us? Why not just straight DOH? Then, as if that wasn't enough, they pillage all of our 737 Capt. seats only to have management come back for another round of raping and this time get rid of all the 717's which causes the loss of most of those Capt. seats. We won't even mention the B-Scale pay, the loss of domiciles, the lower retirement contributions (11.5% down to 9.3%) or the immense financial harm from unrealized future earnings at the Capt. level.

So while you and some of your SWA compadres may be upset about sliding down a bit in domicile seniority, you fail to mention all of the SWA F/O Capt. upgrades you have coming your way 100% at the expense of ATN Captains whose seats have been confiscated.

I thought this subject was over. Do you really think by bringing it up again it will change? Get over it you. You got what you have and if you really do not like it leave. Life is too short. It will all be over before you know it. It will not go away and you will not get a better deal because you complain.

 

[ChinaClipper]

Dan, good point....

You think the Trannies got the shaft, you should have seen what SWAPA and the Warrior Spirit want to do to Frontier, this is NOTHING compared to what they dodged, ask a SWAPA guy about what happened during the Video Conference between FAPA and SWAPA......the SWAPA boys didn't know the system was on a few minutes earlier than the official start time....whoooeeee, the true colors were sad, embarrassing and something VERY different from what WN portrays......sad....

We've got a General Lee on here, shouldn't we have a General Sherman? It would have to be a SWA guy who is proud of the fact that they pillaged ATL at the expense of the AirTran pilots........................Warrior Spirit Bubba!

I've watched the whole debate on here and it sure seems that the SWA folks just don't get that their actions have consequences. You can't acquire an airline and than start displacing peoples lives and expect them to become happy little warriors. SWA got what AirTran earned and SWA could not, a foothold in ATL.
You guys got there flying, fine, but you really shouldn't be condescending them by telling them how lucky they are or, hey you guys voted for it etc etc. It's not lucky at all if you all of a sudden have to commute or lost your Captains seat and it was in fact deceitfully rammed down their throats.
Mergers are all about screwing over employee's so a few can make money on the deal, period. The managements that do them do not care about the human toll in a merger, only how it looks on the balance sheet. SWA obviously is no different.
I actually was hopeful when the deal was first announced that SWA would come up with a better way to merge given how acrimonious most airline mergers are. They failed, in fact DAL/NWA did a much better job than you guys did.

 

[waveflyer]

But that's what he said- unless you're within striking distance of an upgrade, none of this AT deal benefits us. And i mean "none" - its 100% negative, there is not one aspect that is beneficial to most FOs. We only hope that it is a good business decision and it'll be used to start growing again.

Really? Not reaping huge benefits. Let's just see about that.

SWAPA, with the complicit help of SWA management, first stole huge amounts of ATN seniority. Why? Think you're better than us? Why not just straight DOH? Then, as if that wasn't enough, they pillage all of our 737 Capt. seats only to have management come back for another round of raping and this time get rid of all the 717's which causes the loss of most of those Capt. seats. We won't even mention the B-Scale pay, the loss of domiciles, the lower retirement contributions (11.5% down to 9.3%) or the immense financial harm from unrealized future earnings at the Capt. level.

So while you and some of your SWA compadres may be upset about sliding down a bit in domicile seniority, you fail to mention all of the SWA F/O Capt. upgrades you have coming your way 100% at the expense of ATN Captains whose seats have been confiscated.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You think the Trannies got the shaft, you should have seen what SWAPA and the Warrior Spirit want to do to Frontier, this is NOTHING compared to what they dodged, ask a SWAPA guy about what happened during the Video Conference between FAPA and SWAPA......the SWAPA boys didn't know the system was on a few minutes earlier than the official start time....whoooeeee, the true colors were sad, embarrassing and something VERY different from what WN portrays......sad....

Kinda' glad you brought up Frontier, ChinaClipper dude....

Since you didn't actually relay any of the negotiations, rather you just lobbed random insults at SWAPA, let me provide a short history lesson of that affair:

The negotiations were very short (BK judge's auction timeline; not SW's or Frontier's), so it was very quick. However, this was a very different situation than Airtran. Frontier was a tiny carrier in bankruptcy, whose only options were being acquired or liquidation--and right soon at that. What FAPA wanted was initially four things: Pay protection, Furlough protection, Domicile protection for Denver, and Seat protection. SWAPA was authorized to offer all of that except seat protection. And we made such an offer. FAPA, or its president Stemmler, actually, didn't really want this deal (didn't want to be an FO again, I suppose, regardless of the other provisions or the wishes of the other FAPA pilots), so they then added more demands--including paid medical and thousands in cash per month for all the Frontier pilots who were already furloughed by Frontier due to their previous downsizing (who were receiving nothing from Frontier at the time, by the way). Ridiculous crap that was not only unreasonable, but they knew was never going to happen.

After the negotiations fell apart, FAPA's president returned, saying that he turned it down because "Southwest was going to furlough 20% of the current Frontier pilots." So the bottom guys were happy because they thought FAPA had saved them from being unemployed. A completely fabricated BS snow job, of course, because Southwest had guaranteed that none of them would be furloughed. And I'm sure it's not too much of a stretch to say that a Southwest promise of no furloughs is worth a hell of a lot more than a Brian Bedford promise of anything. Just ask the former Midwest Express pilots what they think about that.

So, anyway, that's how the Frontier group ended up with Brian Bedford's Republic instead of with Southwest.

Bubba

 

[ChinaClipper]

I stand by my post...

you'll never guess who, or where, someone started recordingit all...just a bit early......
Hint, not a Cowboys fan around!

Kinda' glad you brought up Frontier, ChinaClipper dude....

Since you didn't actually relay any of the negotiations, rather you just lobbed random insults at SWAPA, let me provide a short history lesson of that affair:

The negotiations were very short (BK judge's auction timeline; not SW's or Frontier's), so it was very quick. However, this was a very different situation than Airtran. Frontier was a tiny carrier in bankruptcy, whose only options were being acquired or liquidation--and right soon at that. What FAPA wanted was initially four things: Pay protection, Furlough protection, Domicile protection for Denver, and Seat protection. SWAPA was authorized to offer all of that except seat protection. And we made such an offer. FAPA, or its president Stemmler, actually, didn't really want this deal (didn't want to be an FO again, I suppose, regardless of the other provisions or the wishes of the other FAPA pilots), so they then added more demands--including paid medical and thousands in cash per month for all the Frontier pilots who were already furloughed by Frontier due to their previous downsizing (who were receiving nothing from Frontier at the time, by the way). Ridiculous crap that was not only unreasonable, but they knew was never going to happen.

After the negotiations fell apart, FAPA's president returned, saying that he turned it down because "Southwest was going to furlough 20% of the current Frontier pilots." So the bottom guys were happy because they thought FAPA had saved them from being unemployed. A completely fabricated BS snow job, of course, because Southwest had guaranteed that none of them would be furloughed. And I'm sure it's not too much of a stretch to say that a Southwest promise of no furloughs is worth a hell of a lot more than a Brian Bedford promise of anything. Just ask the former Midwest Express pilots what they think about that.

So, anyway, that's how the Frontier group ended up with Brian Bedford's Republic instead of with Southwest.

Bubba

 

[ChinaClipper]

Huhh?

the Pilot "Negotiations" were irrelevant, GK need to blame FAPA, with SWAPAs help...AFTER he knew the jig was up! He couldn't admit that the almighty WN got snookered in a dual with a bunch of corn-fed Indiana shysters with GKW consulting on there side! Tragedy for both sides, but the management games continue...f9ers have lost either way....

 

[Always deferred]

You are really going to hold it over AirTran pilots' heads that you had to "buy your job" and they just waltzed in? This is business folks. Pilots have no say in what happens. As much as you think you're special, to management and the BOD (and shareholders) you are just another expense on the balance sheet. In most corporate mergers, 1000s are usually laid off. Both companies need each other in the long run to survive. No one is doing the other a "favor". The sooner you realize this and quit thumping your chests, the sooner and smoother you can integrate and make life better for everyone.

 

[redflyer65]

Think you're better than us? Why not just straight DOH?

So your saying a job at Airtran was equal to a job at Southwest? Southwest is older, larger, and a much more difficult job to acquire. Pay and QOL differences are huge. How is that possibly equal in your world?

There wasn't a chance in hell of DOH. If you thought that going in, you were delusional.

 

[LeeRoyJenkins]

the Pilot "Negotiations" were irrelevant, GK need to blame FAPA, with SWAPAs help...AFTER he knew the jig was up! He couldn't admit that the almighty WN got snookered in a dual with a bunch of corn-fed Indiana shysters with GKW consulting on there side! Tragedy for both sides, but the management games continue...f9ers have lost either way....

Incorrect.

After SWA got involved there became a bit of a bidding war between SWA and Republic. When GK realized that the amount to purchase became too much to stomach he then bowed out and decided to let Republic have Frontier.

It's called business and in retrospect it looks like GK made a wise choice. I also think that Republic isn't to thrilled with the drag on earnings (or lack thereof) that Frontier has become.

If GK wanted Frontier bad enough he would have gotten them. And there was only ONE entity who had the control of it. The Bankruptcy Court. No one else had anything to do with it.

 

[DonVerita]

So your saying a job at Airtran was equal to a job at Southwest? Southwest is older, larger, and a much more difficult job to acquire. Pay and QOL differences are huge. How is that possibly equal in your world?

There wasn't a chance in hell of DOH. If you thought that going in, you were delusional.

A more difficult job to acquire? YGTBSM bro. If you mean more difficult to acquire if you refuse to pay for a job (ie; type rating) then you would be correct. Plenty of people have interviewed at ATN, more than once in some cases, and still got turned down. As for DOH, you must be the one who is delusional if you can't see that DOH would be the "fair and equitable" part of the Process Agreement that any rational person would view as perfectly acceptable. How is my QOL, living in our ATL base supposedly trumped by your QOL with me having to commute out of ATL to one of your bases? ATN CA's make more than SWA F/O's, so thanks to your seniority grab, I now have to take a pay cut.

I never applied to SWA, but wound up there anyway through no action of my own because GK signed a piece of paper. So why am I and just about every other Capt. at ATN supposed to give up our CA seats and 30-35%seniority? Please answer that and try to leave the arrogance out of it. Keep in mind that ATN was/is a fully fuctional, profitable, Major airline which was also expanding. GK clearly saw the value in combining the two into what now could be argued is a Legacy carrier.

Pay may be here today, but not tomorrow. Seniority is forever.

 

[K-Mart]

ATN CA's make more than SWA F/O's

Not before Sept 2010. At least not the majority of em.

Guy i feel bad for ya but its time to move on. Why do you still have the same bunch of clowns in your union running the NC and other positions. Id get rid of those fools.

 

[waveflyer]

Bc seniority is all AT has ever had to offer Swapa - you guys got 9 more bases and a much better contract and stability- and don't pretend that AT was an equal job to Swa- not close and you know it. It was simply a better fit for YOU. YOU may not have ever aspired to Swa but a LOT of your peers did. Individual situations can always be called into account. What about the dozens- yes, dozens of air tran pilots who left AT for Swa and lost all kinds of seniority? Is your situation greater than theirs, Don? Or should they just "get over it", while you don't?

Do YOU know why people don't like Lebron James so much? Bc he uses a lot of "I" and "Me"- its all about him-
Hate to break this, but Swa is not about any "one" of us. Quicker we all learn that the better

 

[madjack]

So DV,

If you were a SWA pilot (vs AAI pilot) you would have been ok with DOH?...I know if I had been a AAI pilot I would have been pushing for the best deal I could get...

 

[DonVerita]

Bc seniority is all AT has ever had to offer Swapa - you guys got 9 more bases and a much better contract and stability- and don't pretend that AT was an equal job to Swa- not close and you know it. It was simply a better fit for YOU. YOU may not have ever aspired to Swa but a LOT of your peers did. Individual situations can always be called into account. What about the dozens- yes, dozens of air tran pilots who left AT for Swa and lost all kinds of seniority? Is your situation greater than theirs, Don? Or should they just "get over it", while you don't?

Do YOU know why people don't like Lebron James so much? Bc he uses a lot of "I" and "Me"- its all about him-
Hate to break this, but Swa is not about any "one" of us. Quicker we all learn that the better

Real easy for you to take that stance from the Press Box seats looking down. I wonder how you'd feel if the roles were reversed.

So a few junior F/O's left at some point or another for SWA. Big deal. They didn't have much seniority to lose in the first place.

When I speak of "I", it means "us", as in every CA here who is taking massive hits on Seat, Pay, QOL. Just about everyone is highly pissed off, from the top to the bottom, of how the "Fair & Equitable" part, in conjunction with all the lies has come down on us from the SWA side. We bear 95% of the burden, you lose a little bit of domicile bidding power and that's all. Huge difference.

Every one of our CA's worked very hard to earn their seats, and for those to be stolen from us and given to your F/O's along with our earned seniority is straight up B.S. "One LUV"? "Golden Rule"? We haven't seen it.

 

[waveflyer]

And most of our competitors don't see it either. Your hard work was rewarded by being bought, and getting to keep your job instead of being bled to the unemployment line. You want a list of the places thats happened to? SWA is a business like every airline-( think delta would have given you a better deal?)- and that warrior spirit "thing" DR likes to joke about, isn't a joke. We compete and negotiate tough. If you don't like the leverage you had in the situation, maybe you should have aspired to a larger, more secure carrier that's not a takeover target.
The simple fact is that you took a risk joining a smaller carrier and putting your eggs in that basket. Your toughness and professionalism got you bought. That's a good thing if you have an ounce of aviation perspective. And in the end, the upside far outweighs the short term bad.
But there is no appeasing being a baby. Look for the positive, or go quit and do something where you can. Bc no matter how "pissed" you get, or how "pissed" my side gets("you know? The ones like me who didn't get anything out of this deal except a 1000+ pilots younger or real close in age placed over the top of them) it doesn't change the business side of this.

I'm not religious, but your guys main problem comes down to Luke 14:10. Getting bought and wanting everything and the top seat at the table is the cause of your frustration- not what's actually happened.

 

[waveflyer]

Duplicate

 

[johnsonrod]

no kidding. johnsonrod is a 20 something rj kid who was obviously littered well after the dukes were on tv, otherwise she would have known not to disparage the real general lee. she is trying to get into good graces with the dal general lee to suck up and get a job.

There goes Juan again, acting like the dip$hit he is. When I was referring to door-less I meant people were unable to OPEN the doors - so, they entered through the open windows - just jumped through. I remember that show well - I even remember the "cousins" who took over for Bo and Luke while they were negotiating higher contracts. Sadly, I also remember the offshoot show in which Ennis joined the LA police force - did not last long.

Quit being such an idiot Juan - nobody respects your lame posts.

 

[redflyer65]

And most of our competitors don't see it either. Your hard work was rewarded by being bought, and getting to keep your job instead of being bled to the unemployment line. You want a list of the places thats happened to? SWA is a business like every airline-( think delta would have given you a better deal?)- and that warrior spirit "thing" DR likes to joke about, isn't a joke. We compete and negotiate tough. If you don't like the leverage you had in the situation, maybe you should have aspired to a larger, more secure carrier that's not a takeover target.
The simple fact is that you took a risk joining a smaller carrier and putting your eggs in that basket. Your toughness and professionalism got you bought. That's a good thing if you have an ounce of aviation perspective. And in the end, the upside far outweighs the short term bad.
But there is no appeasing being a baby. Look for the positive, or go quit and do something where you can. Bc no matter how "pissed" you get, or how "pissed" my side gets("you know? The ones like me who didn't get anything out of this deal except a 1000+ pilots younger or real close in age placed over the top of them) it doesn't change the business side of this.

I'm not religious, but your guys main problem comes down to Luke 14:10. Getting bought and wanting everything and the top seat at the table is the cause of your frustration- not what's actually happened.

This ^^^^

Don,

You seriously think that getting hired at AAI on July 1st,XXXX would be equal to being hired at Southwest on the same date? No one in this industry would believe that. It's a tall tale. The lifetime earnings potential was massively different.

You would have kept your beloved Captain seat, domicle, AND received Southwest Captain pay for 10 friggin years if your MEC didn't pull the plug. You can blame them, not us. That's what your NC negotiated for.

As Wave alluded to, in most industries, the smaller company employees MAY be offered jobs at the acquiring company. When your company gets bought your not entitled to anything! Look at other industries and let me know. Most times the employees are let go and the office closed. It's called eliminating a competitor. Happens everyday in the country.

If I worked at Airtran I wouldn't have been a bit surprised that it was bought. The way to ward that off is to become big enough to not make it economical. I'm sorry you thought Airtran was a major airline that was too big to be bought, it wasn't.