Were is the General Sherman on here?

[Dan Roman]

Were is the SWA General Sherman on here?

We've got a General Lee on here, shouldn't we have a General Sherman? It would have to be a SWA guy who is proud of the fact that they pillaged ATL at the expense of the AirTran pilots........................Warrior Spirit Bubba!

I've watched the whole debate on here and it sure seems that the SWA folks just don't get that their actions have consequences. You can't acquire an airline and than start displacing peoples lives and expect them to become happy little warriors. SWA got what AirTran earned and SWA could not, a foothold in ATL.
You guys got there flying, fine, but you really shouldn't be condescending them by telling them how lucky they are or, hey you guys voted for it etc etc. It's not lucky at all if you all of a sudden have to commute or lost your Captains seat and it was in fact deceitfully rammed down their throats.
Mergers are all about screwing over employee's so a few can make money on the deal, period. The managements that do them do not care about the human toll in a merger, only how it looks on the balance sheet. SWA obviously is no different.
I actually was hopeful when the deal was first announced that SWA would come up with a better way to merge given how acrimonious most airline mergers are. They failed, in fact DAL/NWA did a much better job than you guys did.

 

[Scoot 11]

Dan:
You got it all wrong. If anyone should be pissed, it's the Southwest guys/gals. They had to buy their jobs at Southwest, while 1700+ Air Tran pilots didn't. I'd be pissed too if I had invested all that money into a job when someone we just acquired, didn't.

 

[Dan Roman]

uh Scoot.....there are a lot of legacy Captains out there that bought a Flt Engineer rating to become more employable. We all live in glass houses dude.

 

[gobyebye]

Here is the way I look at it from a swa perspective now that some time has past.

Southwest management saw numbers first, then employee consequences second. Maybe the numbers had to happen for the long term survival of southwest, which, if that's the case then the employee consequences had to happen. No one will ever know the true intentions behind the acquisition. The Airtran folks were at an airline that had accomplished a heck of lot in it's relatively short history but were in a position of uncertainty (bitter management/employee relations and a 98% strike vote). The way the seniority list negotiations went down for the Airtran pilots was definitely a crappy (to put it nicely) way of coming to an agreement. The swa management (not pilots) put down an offer with a huge gulp of uncertainty to force them into an agreement. No one on the swa side wished that was the way it would go down, with the exception of a few idiots on here, but that was what the swa management saw was necessary.

Flash forward to today. The Airtran pilots feel they are getting an even worse deal now with the 717's going away. I can't argue with that, because that will definitely affect quality of life for many AT pilots. What the AT pilots have to decide now is, do they want to push through this rough patch for the long term good of their new company and job security, or bring over the negative/bitter feelings and harbor the same mentality that created a 98% strike vote at the previous AT airline. This hasn't been pretty, that is for sure. Screw jobs are definitely being handed out, but look at the long term and things are clearly positive post 2015. ATL will be a base again, you will all be making more money, and your job security has been greatly improved. Only a small group of southwest pilots are seeing any positives from all this on our side. Most FO's like myself have already started sliding backward in domicile seniority so it's not like we are reaping huge benefits from your situation.

Keep fighting for all you can with our management and with swapa, but please know when to turn it off for the long term good of OUR company, especially when in the work environment.

 

[redflyer65]

AAI MEC shouldn't have voted the first one down.

Huge, huge mistake.

 

[dicko]

with the exception of a few idiots on here

See above.

 

[redflyer65]

See above.

I'm glad you liked the second deal Dicko. My friends at AAI didn't.

 

[johnsonrod]

By the way, I recall a year or two ago that GL mentioned his moniker referred to the door-less General Lee car on Dukes of Hazzard and not the Civil War general... Aaaah, the good-ole days of 70s-80s TV...

 

[uncle bunky]

Dan:
You got it all wrong. If anyone should be pissed, it's the Southwest guys/gals. They had to buy their jobs at Southwest, while 1700+ Air Tran pilots didn't. I'd be pissed too if I had invested all that money into a job when someone we just acquired, didn't.

I've just been a lurker for years, but after reading your drivel time after time I just have to comment. You're entitled to your negative opinion of southwest guys buying a type; however the sheer volume of your posts constantly making the same obsessive point can only lead to one conclusion.........
You must have been anally raped by an owner of a 737 type school. Seek professional help!

 

[Scoot 11]

I've just been a lurker for years, but after reading your drivel time after time I just have to comment. You're entitled to your negative opinion of southwest guys buying a type; however the sheer volume of your posts constantly making the same obsessive point can only lead to one conclusion.........
You must have been anally raped by an owner of a 737 type school. Seek professional help!

Your mother strapped one on and I am hurt by it. Next time I'll tell her to be more gentle. Guess I had that coming since I told her I was, "hers."
My postings towards the few southwest tools, you included, is only in retaliation over their infatuation with my employer.
Thank you for taking the time to care, and tell mom I said, "hi, no hard feelings."

 

[uncle bunky]

Your mother strapped one on and I am hurt by it. Next time I'll tell her to be more gentle. Guess I had that coming since I told her I was, "hers."
My postings towards the few southwest tools, you included, is only in retaliation over their infatuation with my employer.
Thank you for taking the time to care, and tell mom I said, "hi, no hard feelings."

Wow, thanks for the disparagement of my deceased mother. You come off as a total ****************************** bag, but I'll bet you mom is a nice lady.

 

[Whataburger]

By the way, I recall a year or two ago that GL mentioned his moniker referred to the door-less General Lee car on Dukes of Hazzard and not the Civil War general... Aaaah, the good-ole days of 70s-80s TV...

Actually the General Lee did have doors. It did not have windows. Cooter welded the doors shut on the first episode in his garage while Daisy was sliding into some of those shorty shorts back at Uncle Jesse's farm.

 

[jonjuan]

Actually the General Lee did have doors. It did not have windows. Cooter welded the doors shut on the first episode in his garage while Daisy was sliding into some of those shorty shorts back at Uncle Jesse's farm.

no kidding. johnsonrod is a 20 something rj kid who was obviously littered well after the dukes were on tv, otherwise she would have known not to disparage the real general lee. she is trying to get into good graces with the dal general lee to suck up and get a job.

 

[canyonblue]

We've got a General Lee on here, shouldn't we have a General Sherman?

We actually have a Captain Sherman at SWA. I would have had him fly the first flight into Atlanta, it would have been appropriate. General Sherman's subsequent march through Georgia and the Carolinas further undermined the Confederacy's ability to continue fighting. We will see what fight Delta has, or will they just run like the southerners they are.

 

[Dan Roman]

We actually have a Captain Sherman at SWA. I would have had him fly the first flight into Atlanta, it would have been appropriate. General Sherman's subsequent march through Georgia and the Carolinas further undermined the Confederacy's ability to continue fighting. We will see what fight Delta has, or will they just run like the southerners they are.

Oh boy, this should be good.

 

[Whataburger]

Could not find one Whataburger in the A-T-L? W-T-F?

 

[charlie2]

We actually have a Captain Sherman at SWA. I would have had him fly the first flight into Atlanta, it would have been appropriate. General Sherman's subsequent march through Georgia and the Carolinas further undermined the Confederacy's ability to continue fighting. We will see what fight Delta has, or will they just run like the southerners they are.

This is great but I will still try to hijack it....westicles suck and the Nic is dead.

 

[xjhawk]

Dan:
You got it all wrong. If anyone should be pissed, it's the Southwest guys/gals. They had to buy their jobs at Southwest, while 1700+ Air Tran pilots didn't. I'd be pissed too if I had invested all that money into a job when someone we just acquired, didn't.

Imagine if you paid all that money for the type trying to be competetive and your career goals were betting on SWA. Now you are looking at SWA not hiring in a long time and you still have that bill from Higher Power. Or imagine if you were an instructor or employee of the Higher power type company and could expect not to have that business. oh I would give my left .....arm to be in the position of a junior SWA pilot. They still make more money that I do, have more days off than I do............

 

[jonjuan]

Could not find one Whataburger in the A-T-L? W-T-F?

Atl is Chik-fil-a country.

 

[tomgoodman]

Atl is Chik-fil-a country.

Yup. The original one is fairly close to the DAL training center.

http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/9/123691/restaurant/Hapeville/Chick-fil-A-Dwarf-House-Atlanta

 

[dicko]

I'm glad you liked the second deal Dicko. My friends at AAI didn't.

You misunderstand ...... Again. I liked neither.

 

[DonVerita]

Only a small group of southwest pilots are seeing any positives from all this on our side. Most FO's like myself have already started sliding backward in domicile seniority so it's not like we are reaping huge benefits from your situation.

Really? Not reaping huge benefits. Let's just see about that.

SWAPA, with the complicit help of SWA management, first stole huge amounts of ATN seniority. Why? Think you're better than us? Why not just straight DOH? Then, as if that wasn't enough, they pillage all of our 737 Capt. seats only to have management come back for another round of raping and this time get rid of all the 717's which causes the loss of most of those Capt. seats. We won't even mention the B-Scale pay, the loss of domiciles, the lower retirement contributions (11.5% down to 9.3%) or the immense financial harm from unrealized future earnings at the Capt. level.

So while you and some of your SWA compadres may be upset about sliding down a bit in domicile seniority, you fail to mention all of the SWA F/O Capt. upgrades you have coming your way 100% at the expense of ATN Captains whose seats have been confiscated.

 

[Cometman]

Really? Not reaping huge benefits. Let's just see about that.

SWAPA, with the complicit help of SWA management, first stole huge amounts of ATN seniority. Why? Think you're better than us? Why not just straight DOH? Then, as if that wasn't enough, they pillage all of our 737 Capt. seats only to have management come back for another round of raping and this time get rid of all the 717's which causes the loss of most of those Capt. seats. We won't even mention the B-Scale pay, the loss of domiciles, the lower retirement contributions (11.5% down to 9.3%) or the immense financial harm from unrealized future earnings at the Capt. level.

So while you and some of your SWA compadres may be upset about sliding down a bit in domicile seniority, you fail to mention all of the SWA F/O Capt. upgrades you have coming your way 100% at the expense of ATN Captains whose seats have been confiscated.

I thought this subject was over. Do you really think by bringing it up again it will change? Get over it you. You got what you have and if you really do not like it leave. Life is too short. It will all be over before you know it. It will not go away and you will not get a better deal because you complain.

 

[ChinaClipper]

Dan, good point....

You think the Trannies got the shaft, you should have seen what SWAPA and the Warrior Spirit want to do to Frontier, this is NOTHING compared to what they dodged, ask a SWAPA guy about what happened during the Video Conference between FAPA and SWAPA......the SWAPA boys didn't know the system was on a few minutes earlier than the official start time....whoooeeee, the true colors were sad, embarrassing and something VERY different from what WN portrays......sad....

We've got a General Lee on here, shouldn't we have a General Sherman? It would have to be a SWA guy who is proud of the fact that they pillaged ATL at the expense of the AirTran pilots........................Warrior Spirit Bubba!

I've watched the whole debate on here and it sure seems that the SWA folks just don't get that their actions have consequences. You can't acquire an airline and than start displacing peoples lives and expect them to become happy little warriors. SWA got what AirTran earned and SWA could not, a foothold in ATL.
You guys got there flying, fine, but you really shouldn't be condescending them by telling them how lucky they are or, hey you guys voted for it etc etc. It's not lucky at all if you all of a sudden have to commute or lost your Captains seat and it was in fact deceitfully rammed down their throats.
Mergers are all about screwing over employee's so a few can make money on the deal, period. The managements that do them do not care about the human toll in a merger, only how it looks on the balance sheet. SWA obviously is no different.
I actually was hopeful when the deal was first announced that SWA would come up with a better way to merge given how acrimonious most airline mergers are. They failed, in fact DAL/NWA did a much better job than you guys did.

 

[waveflyer]

But that's what he said- unless you're within striking distance of an upgrade, none of this AT deal benefits us. And i mean "none" - its 100% negative, there is not one aspect that is beneficial to most FOs. We only hope that it is a good business decision and it'll be used to start growing again.

Really? Not reaping huge benefits. Let's just see about that.

SWAPA, with the complicit help of SWA management, first stole huge amounts of ATN seniority. Why? Think you're better than us? Why not just straight DOH? Then, as if that wasn't enough, they pillage all of our 737 Capt. seats only to have management come back for another round of raping and this time get rid of all the 717's which causes the loss of most of those Capt. seats. We won't even mention the B-Scale pay, the loss of domiciles, the lower retirement contributions (11.5% down to 9.3%) or the immense financial harm from unrealized future earnings at the Capt. level.

So while you and some of your SWA compadres may be upset about sliding down a bit in domicile seniority, you fail to mention all of the SWA F/O Capt. upgrades you have coming your way 100% at the expense of ATN Captains whose seats have been confiscated.

 

[SWA Bubba]

You think the Trannies got the shaft, you should have seen what SWAPA and the Warrior Spirit want to do to Frontier, this is NOTHING compared to what they dodged, ask a SWAPA guy about what happened during the Video Conference between FAPA and SWAPA......the SWAPA boys didn't know the system was on a few minutes earlier than the official start time....whoooeeee, the true colors were sad, embarrassing and something VERY different from what WN portrays......sad....

Kinda' glad you brought up Frontier, ChinaClipper dude....

Since you didn't actually relay any of the negotiations, rather you just lobbed random insults at SWAPA, let me provide a short history lesson of that affair:

The negotiations were very short (BK judge's auction timeline; not SW's or Frontier's), so it was very quick. However, this was a very different situation than Airtran. Frontier was a tiny carrier in bankruptcy, whose only options were being acquired or liquidation--and right soon at that. What FAPA wanted was initially four things: Pay protection, Furlough protection, Domicile protection for Denver, and Seat protection. SWAPA was authorized to offer all of that except seat protection. And we made such an offer. FAPA, or its president Stemmler, actually, didn't really want this deal (didn't want to be an FO again, I suppose, regardless of the other provisions or the wishes of the other FAPA pilots), so they then added more demands--including paid medical and thousands in cash per month for all the Frontier pilots who were already furloughed by Frontier due to their previous downsizing (who were receiving nothing from Frontier at the time, by the way). Ridiculous crap that was not only unreasonable, but they knew was never going to happen.

After the negotiations fell apart, FAPA's president returned, saying that he turned it down because "Southwest was going to furlough 20% of the current Frontier pilots." So the bottom guys were happy because they thought FAPA had saved them from being unemployed. A completely fabricated BS snow job, of course, because Southwest had guaranteed that none of them would be furloughed. And I'm sure it's not too much of a stretch to say that a Southwest promise of no furloughs is worth a hell of a lot more than a Brian Bedford promise of anything. Just ask the former Midwest Express pilots what they think about that.

So, anyway, that's how the Frontier group ended up with Brian Bedford's Republic instead of with Southwest.

Bubba

 

[ChinaClipper]

I stand by my post...

you'll never guess who, or where, someone started recordingit all...just a bit early......
Hint, not a Cowboys fan around!

Kinda' glad you brought up Frontier, ChinaClipper dude....

Since you didn't actually relay any of the negotiations, rather you just lobbed random insults at SWAPA, let me provide a short history lesson of that affair:

The negotiations were very short (BK judge's auction timeline; not SW's or Frontier's), so it was very quick. However, this was a very different situation than Airtran. Frontier was a tiny carrier in bankruptcy, whose only options were being acquired or liquidation--and right soon at that. What FAPA wanted was initially four things: Pay protection, Furlough protection, Domicile protection for Denver, and Seat protection. SWAPA was authorized to offer all of that except seat protection. And we made such an offer. FAPA, or its president Stemmler, actually, didn't really want this deal (didn't want to be an FO again, I suppose, regardless of the other provisions or the wishes of the other FAPA pilots), so they then added more demands--including paid medical and thousands in cash per month for all the Frontier pilots who were already furloughed by Frontier due to their previous downsizing (who were receiving nothing from Frontier at the time, by the way). Ridiculous crap that was not only unreasonable, but they knew was never going to happen.

After the negotiations fell apart, FAPA's president returned, saying that he turned it down because "Southwest was going to furlough 20% of the current Frontier pilots." So the bottom guys were happy because they thought FAPA had saved them from being unemployed. A completely fabricated BS snow job, of course, because Southwest had guaranteed that none of them would be furloughed. And I'm sure it's not too much of a stretch to say that a Southwest promise of no furloughs is worth a hell of a lot more than a Brian Bedford promise of anything. Just ask the former Midwest Express pilots what they think about that.

So, anyway, that's how the Frontier group ended up with Brian Bedford's Republic instead of with Southwest.

Bubba

 

[ChinaClipper]

Huhh?

the Pilot "Negotiations" were irrelevant, GK need to blame FAPA, with SWAPAs help...AFTER he knew the jig was up! He couldn't admit that the almighty WN got snookered in a dual with a bunch of corn-fed Indiana shysters with GKW consulting on there side! Tragedy for both sides, but the management games continue...f9ers have lost either way....

 

[Always deferred]

You are really going to hold it over AirTran pilots' heads that you had to "buy your job" and they just waltzed in? This is business folks. Pilots have no say in what happens. As much as you think you're special, to management and the BOD (and shareholders) you are just another expense on the balance sheet. In most corporate mergers, 1000s are usually laid off. Both companies need each other in the long run to survive. No one is doing the other a "favor". The sooner you realize this and quit thumping your chests, the sooner and smoother you can integrate and make life better for everyone.

 

[redflyer65]

Think you're better than us? Why not just straight DOH?

So your saying a job at Airtran was equal to a job at Southwest? Southwest is older, larger, and a much more difficult job to acquire. Pay and QOL differences are huge. How is that possibly equal in your world?

There wasn't a chance in hell of DOH. If you thought that going in, you were delusional.