Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Waste Management & EJA

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Register   Log in
Snakeplt, I have had pilots refuse airlines that go over 14 hours. It is not a decision process that we are involved with. I used to get upset when I was new. I wanted my managers to see that I showed an intrest in the company's profit margin. Now, however, after 5 years, it doesn't bother me. I know that it is a decision scheduling has made and now has to live with the consequences. Obviously. management has a clue what is going on. I don't disagree with your decsion. I can't say the extra few hundred dollars doesn't sound appealing to me.

We all care about profitability. Profitability is where our raises come from. When a flight manager sees a pilot going over 14, he/she is upset at the situation, nothing personal, just cutting into our profit margin and therefore cutting into our raise. Unfortuantley, we don't have a graded pay scale like you folks and our raises are a outcome of performance and profit.

Thank you for your kind words regarding us. Most of the folks up here do a good job and really care about the company and our growth.

BTW, you wouldn't want to give me those initials of that 1 person would you?
 
Actually nja crew service it's 800 bucks at least in OT pay when scheduling screws up and can't get me home in 14hrs. So it's not just a couple of hundred. it's a whole lotta money.

peee ess "licence to screw with pilots schedules" It might be tounge in cheek but it still shows the mentality upstairs.
 
We all care about profitability. Profitability is where our raises come from.

It might be time to add a collective bargining unit to your wish list upstairs. Profits are a very funny thing when it comes time for mgt. to hand out money.
 
Diesel, I think I have explained that before. There is a little sarcasim there. A lot of the pilots think that it us that "screw with their schedule".


Snakeplt, I know who you are referring to. Yes, she is gone. She moved to DTS where her boyfriend/fiance is serving with the Navy. Man, you have been here a while.

x402, "collective bargining", I saw what that did the FLOPS fellas when they tried that, no thanks. I may not get paid what I would like, he!!, who does, but at least I am collecting a paycheck now.
 
NJA Crewservicer - glad to see you posting over here. I know you can't get on our board but you can sure get a flavor for what's going on on the road over here. Most of us know that the decisions that screw us come from elsewhere and just pass through you folks, but there are some FM's up there that take it personally when one of us just tries to abide by the same contract that the company signed. Then it's "I'll show him" time. That's where you get your bad rep. There are only a few from what I hear and maybe only one in my fleet. The schedulers, are a different story. They waste more money in this company than management knows, and management suffers from the "It wasn't invented here" syndrome. We've got lots of experience and brainpower out there but most are not sharing with this management not. It's called "WOE is me" Withdrawal of Enthusiasm.

Keep your hand in here.
 
Udonche said:
Now THIS, is entertainment!!!!!!
Click to expand...


I think there's going to be a lot of waste better managed when S.U. files for single carrier. But heck, it took a Weak Union to get better rates for hotels!
 
For some reason at Netjets the Schedulers are not held accountable for the millions of dollars of cash they waist on a daily basis.

Flight Managers are cool. Its the schedulers that really make me wonder sometimes. Why does Netjets give them whatever they want? They are not held accountable for Sh*t? Its crazy. Boisture needs to step up and fix this problem ASAP.
 
rajflyboy said:
For some reason at Netjets the Schedulers are not held accountable for the millions of dollars of cash they waist on a daily basis.

Flight Managers are cool. Its the schedulers that really make me wonder sometimes. Why does Netjets give them whatever they want? They are not held accountable for Sh*t? Its crazy. Boisture needs to step up and fix this problem ASAP.
Click to expand...
I can agree with you on one thing. Flight Managers are cool.

Schedulers get questioned, blamed and second-guessed every time a trip does not go as it was suposed to go. Every Monday-morning-quarterback in the company thinks they have a better solution or can do what we do, better than we can. We hear it from Management, Owner Services, Pilots, Crew Services, etc. We are held accountable for every trip and every problem, even the one's that are beyond our control (wx, ops reviews, late pax, etc.). We are always under a microscope and hear about every complaint or problem. I understand that this comes with the job and am not complaining about it, but I don't need to hear this from someone who has never done this job. Please correct me if I'm wrong about this.

I know I cannot do your job and would never say I could do your job or tell you how to fly. Before bashing schedulers, please feel free to come to CMH and do my job for one day (not just watch for one or two hours). I am sure you would see that it is not as simple or easy as you and many other seem to believe.

I could easily make generalized comments about how our pilots have "wasted millions of dollars on a daily basis", but I know that this is not true of most of our pilots. Most of our pilots are true professionals and do their best to to get the job done. Many times under the worst conditions and after some very long days (especially lately). Unfortunately, you do not always see the entire picture.

Currently, on any given day, there are 300-400 owner trips a day that the schedulers are responsible for. Depending on the aircraft you fly, you may be involved with 1 to possibly 8 of those trips. There are too many variables to mention that affect the way the schedule shakes out, but one problem (ops review, wx delay, crewmember DNIF or family emergency, late pax, ATC delay, airline or transportation problem, hotel boot, etc.) can affect as many as 10 to 12 different aircraft in order to resolve that one incident.

Our main job is to cover the owner's trip on time in the most efficient manner possible. But, trust me, the number one concern for the owner, management, Owner Services, etc. is that we "cover" (or recover) the owner's trip as soon as possible. Efficiency and everything else is a distant second. This is not an excuse, but simply a fact.

Sorry for the rant, but when you post generalized accusations such as this I cannot sit and ignore it. Please provide some examples of the "millions of dollars of cash they waist (waste) on a daily basis" and let me know what the "whatever they want" is that NetJets gives us (besides the all-too-often blame and second-guessing). I would love to know.

Lastly, I cordially invite you to "walk in my shoes" for a day. And, no I would not want to walk in yours. But, I am not critisizing your job either.
 
Sarka,

You make a very good point. Here are some examples of why we feel that way so many times.

Three days ago: Ferry from Wisconsin to Houston (2.7 hours) to do a pax trip from HOU-SAT (.5 hours). Were we really the most logical crew for the trip? It was not a recovery, not a high demand day or 7/7 seam period.

We then ferried another 2.5 hours for a set-up in the morning. So, 5.2 hours of ferry and .5 of revenue in a calender day.

About a year ago, we ferried from Palm Springs to Boston!!!!!! To do a pax trip to HTO!!!!

That is where our perception of the waste comes from.
 
Sarka:



You guys are obviously working with the current scheduling system with the best of your abilities. The sytem needs fixed. BB needs to fix it.
 
I have done the job... on a larger scale. Squadron Group and Wing level. I dont want to do it again. And at the same time being the PM and Owner Services.

Its like standing in the middle of a Large Circle. I have a baseball bat. I am surrounded by 50 pitching machines all throwing Fastballs from every direction. I gotta bat them all out as the come in while taking phone calls. Then a half dozen machines start throwing curveballs and another half dozen 100MPH nuckleballs.

No problem but here comes a change up....

NO I'd rather do my job.

One thing I know about jobs like that is that even a person who is excellent at doing it... that person can identify problems in the system. That person could fix eliminate or minimize such problems... BUT often authority is not granted by someone in the higher ranks.
 
Can the system be improved? Sure. Do scheduler's make mistakes? Sure. I know I have. Do we purposely try to be inefficient? Absolutely not!

Trust me. Nobody WANTS to ferry an a/c 5.2 hrs for .5 of revenue. But, depending on the circumstances, sometimes that is the only option we have. And usually that is still more economical for us than selling the trip to a vendor.

Most schedulers want to find the solution that makes the most economical and efficient use of our assets (crews, a/c, etc.). We definately will hear about every other possible solution that the monday-morning QB's can find.

I once had to ferry our largest a/c from east coast to west coast (by direction of management) to be a BACK-UP a/c for one of our "special" owners because the owner trip that was originally moving the a/c west canx'd after the crew showed. I searched the entire fleet for an owner trip that would at least justify some of the cost, but there were none that would work within the crew duty limits. Even suggested that we use a couple of smaller a/c that were already out west instead. Long story short, I ran the situation up the chain and was told from higher powers to send it anyway. So I did what I was told to do. Probably cost more than my annual salary and I knew it was not a sound decision.

I got called from home (on my day off) the next day to do the carpet dance and explain why "I" ferried a large, empty a/c across country. Thank god I learned long ago to document eveyrthing or I probably wouldn't be here right now because the individual that made "the call" tried to lay the blame off on me. Thankfully, that individual is no longer with the company.

I understand the perception of (and sometimes actual) waste that you see. But, keep in mind that, as I stated earlier, our job is to cover the owner trips. In the end, that is why we are all here and what pays our wages (meager as they may or may not be).

Please do not mis-interpret what else I am about to say here. This is not intended as a flame or accusation of the majority of our pilots. This is about a small percentage of our pilots, though.

Many times the reason you receive the notorious 3:00 AM wake-up call to ASAP out, or are told to ferry 5.2 for that .5 revenue trip, or get that last trip that takes you right up to your 14 hours after busting your hump on every day of your tour, or don't get that a/l home until 23:59 on your last day is because one of your brother's that was originally scheduled:

A) called in DNIF an hour before he was due to show on a brief that he was given and accepted 12-14 hours earlier

B) was too tired to fly that 1.2 hr trip after having 21 hours rest on his second day on the road after amassing a total of 1.5 hrs flight time and about 5 hrs of duty so far on his tour (happened yesterday). And, only telling us after he has ferried the a/c 1.0 hr into position.

C) wrote-up that obscure widget or light bulb or problem that mysteriously cannot be reproduced

D) Etc., etc.

Before you flame me, I know that crews legitimately get sick, crews legitimately get tired and airplanes legitimately break. I also flew long enough to know that you can down any a/c at any time if you really want to and I know some people will find a way to not fly if they don't want to. There are always that 10% of people (scheduler's included) that do things (or NOT do things) that cause the other 90% to carry their load. You probably know who they are better than I do. The trips will get covered by someone else.

I appreciate what you guys do and appreciate your comments. We have our 10% also.
 
Sarka Your awful Brave!!!

I know your job is tuff. No doubt.

We need to figure out how to become more efficient somehow and we need to do it as a team. Calling individuals in for a carpet dance is not going to solve the problems.

Management/schedulers all need to work together to come up with better solutions.
 
"C) wrote-up that obscure widget or light bulb or problem that mysteriously cannot be reproduced"

So are we NOT supposed to write up these things? Is it our fault if it cannot be reproduced? im not saying that some people might do that on purpose. But i would say more often than not, it is legitimate.

It is our responsibility to write these things up. As the cpt and per the company procedures/mel
 
Sarka


Netjets does not have maintenance personel looking at the aircraft each day like the airlines do and like most 135 companies do.

Its the nature of our business. The pilots have to do thorough pre flights and write the aircraft up when they find things wrong. Thats the only way the aircraft can be maintained.
 
Sarka said:
A) called in DNIF an hour before he was due to show on a brief that he was given and accepted 12-14 hours earlier

B) was too tired to fly that 1.2 hr trip after having 21 hours rest on his second day on the road after amassing a total of 1.5 hrs flight time and about 5 hrs of duty so far on his tour (happened yesterday). And, only telling us after he has ferried the a/c 1.0 hr into position.

C) wrote-up that obscure widget or light bulb or problem that mysteriously cannot be reproduced
QUOTE]



It's not Flame - It's Reality

A.) People get sick overnight for a multitude of reasons. Maybe he woke up and didn't feel he had the mental capacity to fly that day: Doesn't matter.



B.) Don't give me this 21 HOURS OF REST BS. Let’s just say the crew was done at 9PM. 21 Hours later is 6PM. Just because IJII says "21 HOURS" of rest means nothing. So, the crew got in at 9PM, went to bed at 11PM, woke at 7AM. At 6PM the internal clock is ticking down fast. There isn't even a hint of consideration for sleep patterns at this company! Consistent flip-flops of the clock - the company is playing with a time-bomb and when it goes off, it isn’t going to be pretty.



The FAA won’t let us fly after drinking, yet some want us to fly tired when research shows we have better motor skills after a few drinks when compared to being fatigued.



C.) Sounds like an acquisition of making-up write ups?



Again, perception is the key.



Click to expand...
 

Share this page

Latest posts

Latest resources

Latest media

Carbon Cub FX-3 Shenandoah Valley
Carbon Cub at Kittyhawk
FX-3 in the backcountry
IFR Panel in a Carbon Cub FX-3
Cub-Provo-UT-c.jpg
Back
Top