washing the plane

[vossdr1]

I wondered how many corporate drivers wash their own aircraft.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

uhhh..

no..

If you are a small operation, its not unusual to ARRANGE for the plane to be washed, but to get out there and wash it?? c'mon...if that isnt part of the budget- what is?

 

[empenage]

Don't tease me..

 

[English]

I heard that washing airplanes is what they make co-pilots do at crappy companies that aren't worth working for...

But what do I know...

 

[Ultraman]

I just left a two-man flight department in which I was required to wash and wax the plane. In fact, the CP once asked me when I had waxed the belly of the plane!

In my new position as CP of a two-man flight department, we hire others to do that kind of work.

 

[2000flyer]

We routinely wash, (occassionally wax), bright-work, wheels, vacuum, detail interior, windows, lav service, carpet clean, touch-up paint, clean EFIS screens, sinks, oven... Thats just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[banned username 2]

Our maintenance guys don't even wash the planes... We have an outside company come in and do all that... We do have 2 dedicated "Airplane Cleaners" who tend to the insides on a daily basis.

 

[English]

I consider it my responsibility to tidy up the aircraft on the road. I'll remove bugs from the britework, pick up lint off the carpet, and make sure the cabin looks good. That, to me, is just taking pride in my aircraft and wanting my passengers to have a nice experience. I'm definitely type A and want things to be clean. However, I do not wash airplanes. Our company has two guys that do that for us.

At my first CJ job, my boss/chief pilot had me wipe down the entire airplane after every flight, and wax the aircraft every six months. I guess you could consider that washing the aircraft.
It was my first corporate job and I had no idea what to expect. I lasted six months. It took me that job to realize what I should and should not be doing as a pilot.

 

[CXAV8]

Be a pro-
Don't wash a/c!!
If you are washing A/c find a real job where you are treated like a skilled pro.
Crappy operators will take everything they can get. Don't let them take advantage of your desire to do a good job. Move on EJA won't make you wash A/c.

 

[FL000]

I washed planes when I flew charter. Each pilot was assigned a plane to take care of and we did it with pride. No prima donnas where I worked.

 

[Kingairrick]

I'm ultimately responsible for the way my airplane looks. As such, I clean the nacells a lot, as all King Air drivers probably have. With three King Airs, my company would have to employ a full-time "nacell guy" if we didn't do it.

I enjoy washing the plane periodically. I'm not required to. I can hire someone if I choose. However, I enjoy knowing where every scratch, oil streak, and soot streak is supposed to be. I have caught things that I would have never picked up on a normal preflight inspection. I am intimately familiar with my airplane, and that makes me feel comfortable.

On the other hand, if I were required to do it, I would probably resent it a little.

 

[TaxiDriver]

A former job of mine, I was primarily a hangar janitor. 75% of the hangar floor was carpeted (not the industrial carpet you put in the garage, not just one big door mat.....the type of carpet you put in the house). I was expected to vacuum the carpet anytime after someone would walk on it....mostly because you could see the footprints.....and also was instructed on how to vacuum the carpet.....so it would ensure that lines were evenly spaced and straight.....kind of like mowing your yard. After doing that....I washed and waxed the other parts of the hangar floor....oh yeah and dusted cabinets...etc.

I lasted only three months there before I found a job actually flying an airplane.

What's everone's opinion on this.....I can add up the time spent cleaning the hangar and put that in my logbook towards total time, right?? HA!!

 

[501261]

I think it’s pathetic for pilots to be made to wash airplanes! Talk about lowering the bar, think about your dang profession when someone makes you wash the airplane. “So you want someone flying around your family in a $40M airplane to also do $7.50 an hour labor?”

No, we have a professional that cleans our airplanes. If the plane gets dirty on the road, we’ll try to arrange for some service to come clean it.

Notice I said, be MADE to wash the airplane! Personally, I’m a clean freak. I’m often out with the Dirt Devil and a can of Sparkle, tidying up the airplane. I do that because I have pride in my work. Tidying up your work place and being made wash an airplane are two totally different subjects!

Another problem with pilots washing airplanes is the liability issue! Think about if your highly trained and skilled pilot falling off the wing while washing your airplane breaking his back. That pilot will now sue the company and probably win a few million dollars that your insurance won’t cover all because you wouldn’t spend $300 to get it washed (this has actually happened, pretty open and shut case- most hangars are not very OSHA friendly)!

Another liability issue is how much do we pilots really know about washing airplanes? Washing airplanes is not exactly covered at FlightSafety recurrent. Now imagine our pilot trying to do a good job, and without thinking throwing some Windex on our $160K windshield, or scratching the hell out of the Britework? Betcha your insurance isn’t going to reimburse you for these easily made mistakes.

Nope, the only people that wash our airplanes are professionals that have experience and more importantly are insured to wash airplanes!

 

[flywithruss]

This thread has hit a nerve for me. For almost two years, I've been half of a two-pilot, one airplane department with one low-utilization King Air. I took the job after 9/11 and was thrilled to be earning a good salary (well above avg for a King Air pilot) and be out of the CFI game. However, the CP insists that we do a lot of things that I don't believe professional pilots should be doing.

We wash the plane after every other trip (as mentioned, King Airs get really dirty). We clean the interior thoroughly after every trip. We vacuum the carpeted portion of the hangar and lounge floors. We clean the painted concrete hangar floor. We cut the grass surrounding the hangar. We change our own tires, current limiters, and exterior lights. We scour the shower and toilet in the lounge bathroom. We spray weed killer in the cracks on the ramp.

Now, I readily understand that certain things above and beyond flying the airplane are part of my responsibility as a corporate pilot, and I accept that. I have never complained about loading luggage (and we load a whole lot of it). I have no problem doing Jepp revisions ... oddly enough, I actually enjoy that. I don't mind downloading new FMS/GPS databases, calling for limousines, or arranging catering. I don't mind making coffee, or straightening the airplane after a trip. I certainly take pride in having an airplane that is clean in appearance to our passengers. However, I do have a problem being yard boy, wannabe mechanic, janitor, and toilet scrubber. My boss will argue that we do these things because we are paid a 500-hour wage for a 200-hour job. He may feel guilty about this ... I do not. He is on a constant quest to save money in any way possible ... but to the best of my knowledge, the folks downtown have never argued any of our expenses or encouraged us to cut our costs. We are always operating under budget, and we report directly to the CEO. He is a very nice guy and a straight shooter who would tell us promptly if he had any complaints about the way we ran things. But, every time I try to suggest to the CP that perhaps we should hire a part-time "hangar rat" to take care of these things, the suggestion is promptly dismissed with some weak excuse. I'm at my wit's end.

Suggestions?

R

 

[conquest]

washing planes

If you are to good to wash a plane, then wait t'll you are in a non flying job. then you will gradly wash a plane if it means getting the job.

Pillot who think they are to good to wash a plane, just wait your time is coming to be humbled.

 

[501261]

Re: washing planes

If you are to good to wash a plane, then wait t'll you are in a non flying job. then you will gradly wash a plane if it means getting the job.

Pillot who think they are to good to wash a plane, just wait your time is coming to be humbled.

NO SIR, I will be out of aviation long before I wash an airplane. 6 years of college, 2 degrees and 5 type ratings, yes I'm too good to wash someone else's airplane involuntarily.

It's people like you that will do anything to get a flying job that are the reason this industry is going down the tubes.

And no it's not because I have a great job that I am saying that, it's because I have too much respect for this industry, that has allowed me to have a great life, to let some punk take advantage of my love of flying by having me do menial labor.

 

[FL000]

Another problem with pilots washing airplanes is the liability issue! Think about if your highly trained and skilled pilot falling off the wing while washing your airplane breaking his back. That pilot will now sue the company and probably win a few million dollars that your insurance won’t cover all because you wouldn’t spend $300 to get it washed (this has actually happened, pretty open and shut case- most hangars are not very OSHA friendly)!

Another liability issue is how much do we pilots really know about washing airplanes? Washing airplanes is not exactly covered at FlightSafety recurrent. Now imagine our pilot trying to do a good job, and without thinking throwing some Windex on our $160K windshield, or scratching the hell out of the Britework? Betcha your insurance isn’t going to reimburse you for these easily made mistakes.

Don't forget about the possibility of breaking a nail or staining your Dockers.

 

[English]

Open your eyes...there is a reason guys like 501261 and Falcon Capt have good corporate gigs. They are doing things the right way.

There is alot to learn from these gentlemen. I'd suggest you young charter pilots stop selling yourselves short, and stop thinking you have to justify the reason for your existence to your bosses. The sooner you stop kissing your boss' $%#$, the sooner he'll stop missing it.

 

[flywithruss]

Re: washing planes

NO SIR, I will be out of aviation long before I wash an airplane. 6 years of college, 2 degrees and 5 type ratings, yes I'm too good to wash someone else's airplane involuntarily.

It's people like you that will do anything to get a flying job that are the reason this industry is going down the tubes.

And no it's not because I have a great job that I am saying that, it's because I have too much respect for this industry, that has allowed me to have a great life, to let some punk take advantage of my love of flying by having me do menial labor.

Amen, sir! It's not about being too much of a prima donna to wash an airplane, it is about respect and appropriate treatment of a professional. Does the senior VP have to scour his own commode? NO. That person does the job they were hired to do, and so should pilots. Our job is to safely and efficiently operate a flight department ... manage the aircraft and the employees in the department, fly the trips, take care of the necessary administrative details. We are pilots, not line service or detailers. We have a job to do, and so do they.

End of rant.

 

[rice]

The Really Sad Part

Whats really sad, is that those of you who believe that the "professional pilot" occupation also includes double duty as janitor, aircraft washer, hangar rat etc. will one day be in a position of authority and no doubt will expect your pilots to do the same.

Russ,
With only 1200 hours this may not be the easiest thing to do but if I were you I'd be looking for another job. That guy you work for sounds like the proverbial "piece of work".

 

[2000flyer]

While I agree with many who've posted on this subject, and I admit that I would love to work for a company where all the extra chores were hired out, I also think you do what is required in any job. My company has done it this way for over 40 years. Honestly, I don't have a problem with washing an airplane. I highly doubt, as some have suggested, that I'm trashing my profession by washing an aircraft. Would I like to see my company outsource cleaning duties? Sure! Am I going to quit my job because I have to break a sweat every now and again? He!! NO. Really folks, how many of you own your own home? Are you a "professional" home owner? Do you mow your own yard? Wash your own windows? Do you complain to other home owners that your whoring home-ownership because you have to do the upkeep yourself? Get a grip.

While I'm sure I'll hear much more about this, remember this. I AM a professional. While I'd like to see (in agreement with many here) the company hire out cleaning duties, I'm certainly not going to chuck a job in this job market because washing an airplane is somehow beneath me.

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[NJA Capt]

My company has done it this way for over 40 years. Honestly, I don't have a problem with washing an airplane.

Just because they have done it for 40 years, doesn't make it right. Have they been flying the same plane for 40 years? When the company owns a Baron and washes it themselves, that's one thing. When you own a Falcon 2000 and wash it yourself, there is something wrong.

Are you a "professional" home owner?

Flyer, normally I agree with the things you post, however, this is the flimsiest justification I have ever heard. Home ownership is NOT a profession. You bought a house knowing exactly what was involved. You are also not "getting paid" to be a homeowner. You are "payING to be a homeowner." Much the same way you are paying part of your salary back to the company when you do other duties.

Nowhere during a checkride for a PVT, ATP, or Type rating does someone as "what is the correct position for a ladder while washing an aircraft?" Doctors don't mop the ER, and orderlies don't do brain surgery. Paralegals don't argue cases in from of the judge. Teachers aren't janitors, and janitors don't teach class.
My garbage man doesn't even pick up the recyclables, another truck picks those up.

This is one of my big problems with all the "salary surveys." You have pilot A making 90K flying a Falcon 50, and company B paying 110K to fly a Falcon 50.
Pilot A parks the plane after a trip and goes home.
Pilot B comes in on "days off" and washes the plane, shines the floor, cleans the toilet.

Who makes more money? (Remember, Pilot B is getting paid an extra 20K to wash planes.)

What gets worse is when company B tell the pilots, "industry avg" is only 90K. So their pilot pay is now only 70K + the 20K for the "other services."


However, to your defense Flyer. I agree to the extent that the vast majority of operators require the pilots to clean the plane. Some of them even have to tow the planes out of the hangers and fuel them themselves too. There are probably very few that get off Scott free.

 

[GVFlyer]

I don't do airplanes or windows...

nor does our maintenance staff. We use a professional aircraft detailing service.

There are many such services throughout the nation and the world. I personally vouch for Jonathan Saltman's International Aero Services. If you are on the road or RON someplace and don't know a local cleaning service any FBO can arrange for aircraft cleaning or detailing.




http://web.nbaa.org/public/marketpl...?7991XXAIRCRAFT+CLEANING+&+DETAILING+SERVICES

 

[banned username 2]

This is one of my big problems with all the "salary surveys." You have pilot A making 90K flying a Falcon 50, and company B paying 110K to fly a Falcon 50.
Pilot A parks the plane after a trip and goes home.
Pilot B comes in on "days off" and washes the plane, shines the floor, cleans the toilet.

The REALLY sad part is it is usually the guy making the $90K who is washing the airplane and the guy who is making the $110k who goes home after the trip.

Typically the companies that make you do all the "extra stuff" don't pay well either... It kind of goes with the territory.

I'm not knocking anyone, just merely making an observation.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I ditto that...

Our MX guys dont even wash planes, nevermind the pilots.

washing your own DA2000 is rediculous...hey, unless you enjoy doing it....

running a 20 mil airplane and not budgeting cleaning???

 

[2000flyer]

NJA Capt, Falcon Capt, G200;

Listen, I can't agree with you more. As I said, I would love to see cleaning duties outsourced. However, because the company requires it makes me NO LESS A PROFESSIONAL PILOT.

Falcon Capt. is exactly correct by stating "those who make you wash planes probably pay less as well". We are WELL below NBAA. We don't budget cleaning services (even though every other part of the company has full time janitorial staffs). We do JEPPS page by page. We rarely get rental cars while RON. We don't stay in 4-5 star hotels.

Is my company dragging down the industry by requiring cleaning duties? I highly doubt it. I have never heard of anyone calling our CP to know what he can get away with in extra duties for pilots. If the company came to us and said "we're outsourcing all cleaning chores, however, you'll be taking a $10K paycut to pay for it" you bet your a$$ I'm going to continue washing planes. Probably be looking for another job, but I'd do the work until something came along.

I'd say on a scale of 1-10, the company I work for is an 7.5. We've all read about the yahoo's who sleep on airplanes RON, etc. There are worse jobs out there. However, like I said before, I'm not going to quit a relatively decent job because of extra duties. Nor shall I accept the premise that I'm somehow less a professional because I do so.

2000Flyer

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree.

washing the plane does not say anything about your skills or professionalism as a pilot.

It, however, does say a lot about your employer - in my opinion. Aside from the lowliest of 135 jobs - the people I have flown for would think I was crazy if I washed the plane..but thats just me.

If the job - all in all - is a GOOD JOB, hey - great for you - thats more than most can say. Maybe it affords you to live where you want and gives you an excellent schedule, benefits, etc...

But to skimp on rental cars, hotels, Jepps, etc....and run a DA2000? - sounds like a mid-level bean counter is doing you pilots some serious injustice...

Personally, I would fly that F'er around until it couldn't get above FL230 due to the layers of grime on it...

 

[Headwind]

It's not a big deal. In warm weather we get bugs on every flight.
I don't wash my car or clean my home. If we are on a tight schedule I will have the aircraft cleaned. Sometimes we don't fly for several days and I clean the plane. It is not part of my job I just do it. Whats the big deal? I think it depends on the size and type of flight dept. you run. No one in our dept. (3 people) are too good to clean the plane if we feel the need.
I don't wash my own car or clean my own home - I pay pro's to do that, but I do clean my Harley.

 

[JetPilot500]

We are WELL below NBAA. We don't budget cleaning services (even though every other part of the company has full time janitorial staffs). We do JEPPS page by page. We rarely get rental cars while RON. We don't stay in 4-5 star hotels.

I'd say on a scale of 1-10, the company I work for is an 7.5. We've all read about the yahoo's who sleep on airplanes RON, etc. There are worse jobs out there. However, like I said before, I'm not going to quit a relatively decent job because of extra duties. Nor shall I accept the premise that I'm somehow less a professional because I do so.

2000Flyer

I'm just curious, how much turnover does your company have?

If you were offered the same position with a different company, paying $10k more and you didn't have to wash planes, you did get rental cars and stayed in descent hotels, would you move on?

Did you know this was part of the job when you took it? If you did and are ok with it, then you and your boss found a good match. I wouldn't even consider a job that made me wash the plane.

Please don't tell me you wash executives cars too! I have heard of that as well.

For $7.50 an hour you could hire a full time guy to wash an airplane and he'd probably be thrilled to have that job right now. That equates to about $15,000 per year in salary and maybe a little more with benefits. What does it cost to train a new pilot, because the last guy left for a better job?

 

[JetPilot500]

One More Observation....



How many Accountants or office workers do you know, that go to the office on Saturday (their day off), to clean the office?

You know, empty the waste baskets, dust the cabinets, vacuum and clean the windows. Hey this stuff has to get done you know. Why should the company pay for office cleaners? Besides, they should feel lucky to have a job right now in this economy.