washing the plane

[2000flyer]

While I agree with many who've posted on this subject, and I admit that I would love to work for a company where all the extra chores were hired out, I also think you do what is required in any job. My company has done it this way for over 40 years. Honestly, I don't have a problem with washing an airplane. I highly doubt, as some have suggested, that I'm trashing my profession by washing an aircraft. Would I like to see my company outsource cleaning duties? Sure! Am I going to quit my job because I have to break a sweat every now and again? He!! NO. Really folks, how many of you own your own home? Are you a "professional" home owner? Do you mow your own yard? Wash your own windows? Do you complain to other home owners that your whoring home-ownership because you have to do the upkeep yourself? Get a grip.

While I'm sure I'll hear much more about this, remember this. I AM a professional. While I'd like to see (in agreement with many here) the company hire out cleaning duties, I'm certainly not going to chuck a job in this job market because washing an airplane is somehow beneath me.

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[NJA Capt]

My company has done it this way for over 40 years. Honestly, I don't have a problem with washing an airplane.

Just because they have done it for 40 years, doesn't make it right. Have they been flying the same plane for 40 years? When the company owns a Baron and washes it themselves, that's one thing. When you own a Falcon 2000 and wash it yourself, there is something wrong.

Are you a "professional" home owner?

Flyer, normally I agree with the things you post, however, this is the flimsiest justification I have ever heard. Home ownership is NOT a profession. You bought a house knowing exactly what was involved. You are also not "getting paid" to be a homeowner. You are "payING to be a homeowner." Much the same way you are paying part of your salary back to the company when you do other duties.

Nowhere during a checkride for a PVT, ATP, or Type rating does someone as "what is the correct position for a ladder while washing an aircraft?" Doctors don't mop the ER, and orderlies don't do brain surgery. Paralegals don't argue cases in from of the judge. Teachers aren't janitors, and janitors don't teach class.
My garbage man doesn't even pick up the recyclables, another truck picks those up.

This is one of my big problems with all the "salary surveys." You have pilot A making 90K flying a Falcon 50, and company B paying 110K to fly a Falcon 50.
Pilot A parks the plane after a trip and goes home.
Pilot B comes in on "days off" and washes the plane, shines the floor, cleans the toilet.

Who makes more money? (Remember, Pilot B is getting paid an extra 20K to wash planes.)

What gets worse is when company B tell the pilots, "industry avg" is only 90K. So their pilot pay is now only 70K + the 20K for the "other services."


However, to your defense Flyer. I agree to the extent that the vast majority of operators require the pilots to clean the plane. Some of them even have to tow the planes out of the hangers and fuel them themselves too. There are probably very few that get off Scott free.

 

[GVFlyer]

I don't do airplanes or windows...

nor does our maintenance staff. We use a professional aircraft detailing service.

There are many such services throughout the nation and the world. I personally vouch for Jonathan Saltman's International Aero Services. If you are on the road or RON someplace and don't know a local cleaning service any FBO can arrange for aircraft cleaning or detailing.




http://web.nbaa.org/public/marketpl...?7991XXAIRCRAFT+CLEANING+&+DETAILING+SERVICES

 

[banned username 2]

This is one of my big problems with all the "salary surveys." You have pilot A making 90K flying a Falcon 50, and company B paying 110K to fly a Falcon 50.
Pilot A parks the plane after a trip and goes home.
Pilot B comes in on "days off" and washes the plane, shines the floor, cleans the toilet.

The REALLY sad part is it is usually the guy making the $90K who is washing the airplane and the guy who is making the $110k who goes home after the trip.

Typically the companies that make you do all the "extra stuff" don't pay well either... It kind of goes with the territory.

I'm not knocking anyone, just merely making an observation.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I ditto that...

Our MX guys dont even wash planes, nevermind the pilots.

washing your own DA2000 is rediculous...hey, unless you enjoy doing it....

running a 20 mil airplane and not budgeting cleaning???

 

[2000flyer]

NJA Capt, Falcon Capt, G200;

Listen, I can't agree with you more. As I said, I would love to see cleaning duties outsourced. However, because the company requires it makes me NO LESS A PROFESSIONAL PILOT.

Falcon Capt. is exactly correct by stating "those who make you wash planes probably pay less as well". We are WELL below NBAA. We don't budget cleaning services (even though every other part of the company has full time janitorial staffs). We do JEPPS page by page. We rarely get rental cars while RON. We don't stay in 4-5 star hotels.

Is my company dragging down the industry by requiring cleaning duties? I highly doubt it. I have never heard of anyone calling our CP to know what he can get away with in extra duties for pilots. If the company came to us and said "we're outsourcing all cleaning chores, however, you'll be taking a $10K paycut to pay for it" you bet your a$$ I'm going to continue washing planes. Probably be looking for another job, but I'd do the work until something came along.

I'd say on a scale of 1-10, the company I work for is an 7.5. We've all read about the yahoo's who sleep on airplanes RON, etc. There are worse jobs out there. However, like I said before, I'm not going to quit a relatively decent job because of extra duties. Nor shall I accept the premise that I'm somehow less a professional because I do so.

2000Flyer

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree.

washing the plane does not say anything about your skills or professionalism as a pilot.

It, however, does say a lot about your employer - in my opinion. Aside from the lowliest of 135 jobs - the people I have flown for would think I was crazy if I washed the plane..but thats just me.

If the job - all in all - is a GOOD JOB, hey - great for you - thats more than most can say. Maybe it affords you to live where you want and gives you an excellent schedule, benefits, etc...

But to skimp on rental cars, hotels, Jepps, etc....and run a DA2000? - sounds like a mid-level bean counter is doing you pilots some serious injustice...

Personally, I would fly that F'er around until it couldn't get above FL230 due to the layers of grime on it...

 

[Headwind]

It's not a big deal. In warm weather we get bugs on every flight.
I don't wash my car or clean my home. If we are on a tight schedule I will have the aircraft cleaned. Sometimes we don't fly for several days and I clean the plane. It is not part of my job I just do it. Whats the big deal? I think it depends on the size and type of flight dept. you run. No one in our dept. (3 people) are too good to clean the plane if we feel the need.
I don't wash my own car or clean my own home - I pay pro's to do that, but I do clean my Harley.

 

[JetPilot500]

We are WELL below NBAA. We don't budget cleaning services (even though every other part of the company has full time janitorial staffs). We do JEPPS page by page. We rarely get rental cars while RON. We don't stay in 4-5 star hotels.

I'd say on a scale of 1-10, the company I work for is an 7.5. We've all read about the yahoo's who sleep on airplanes RON, etc. There are worse jobs out there. However, like I said before, I'm not going to quit a relatively decent job because of extra duties. Nor shall I accept the premise that I'm somehow less a professional because I do so.

2000Flyer

I'm just curious, how much turnover does your company have?

If you were offered the same position with a different company, paying $10k more and you didn't have to wash planes, you did get rental cars and stayed in descent hotels, would you move on?

Did you know this was part of the job when you took it? If you did and are ok with it, then you and your boss found a good match. I wouldn't even consider a job that made me wash the plane.

Please don't tell me you wash executives cars too! I have heard of that as well.

For $7.50 an hour you could hire a full time guy to wash an airplane and he'd probably be thrilled to have that job right now. That equates to about $15,000 per year in salary and maybe a little more with benefits. What does it cost to train a new pilot, because the last guy left for a better job?

 

[JetPilot500]

One More Observation....



How many Accountants or office workers do you know, that go to the office on Saturday (their day off), to clean the office?

You know, empty the waste baskets, dust the cabinets, vacuum and clean the windows. Hey this stuff has to get done you know. Why should the company pay for office cleaners? Besides, they should feel lucky to have a job right now in this economy.

 

[2000flyer]

JetPilot,

I'm just curious, how much turnover does your company have?

Top three pilots have a combined 57 years with the company. We've lost two guys in the last 3-years.

If you were offered the same position with a different company, paying $10k more and you didn't have to wash planes, you did get rental cars and stayed in descent hotels, would you move on?

Maybe. I'd need much more information to make that call.

Did you known this was part of the job when you took it? If you did and are ok with it, then you and your boss found a good match. I wouldn't even consider a job that made me wash the plane.

No, I had no idea. Had I know it may have been a consideration, but since my [then] employer was closing the department, I probably would have taken it anyway considering the lack of interviews I was getting back then.

Please don't tell me you wash executives cars too! I have heard of that as well.

NO.

For $7.50 an hour you could hire a full time guy to wash an airplane and he'd probably be thrilled to have that job right now. That equates to about $15,000 per year in salary and maybe a little more with benefits. What does it cost to train a new pilot, because the last guy left for a better job?

You're preaching to the choir here!

How many Accountants or office workers do you know, that go to the office on Saturday (their day off), to clean the office?

You know, empty the waste baskets, dust the cabinets, vacuum and clean the windows. Hey this stuff has to get done you know. Why should the company pay for office cleaners? Besides, they should feel lucky to have a job right now in this economy.

No offense, but now you're just being a smart a$$. An accountant can go to one of a hundred local company's and get a job. How many Falcon 2000's are based at your airport? More over, how many are hiring right now? Compare apples to apples next time.

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[TAG2]

No Sir, we don't wash our plane. We also use a professional detailing service.

 

[JetPilot500]

No offense, but now you're just being a smart a$$. An accountant can go to one of a hundred local company's and get a job. How many Falcon 2000's are based at your airport? More over, how many are hiring right now? Compare apples to apples next time.

Regards,
2000Flyer

2000Flyer,

Please don't misinterpret my comments, I was not trying to jab you.

You are correct in that there is more supply than demand for pilots right now. There may be more accounting jobs out there, but there are also a lot more accountants in the world than pilots.

Also, why are you limiting your search to Falcon 2000's? You are a "Corporate" pilot. Your qualifications should make you a candidate to fly just about any corporate airplane.

Good Luck,
JetPilot500

 

[banned username 2]

Also, why are you limiting your search to Falcon 2000's? You are a "Corporate" pilot. Your qualifications should make you a candidate to fly just about any corporate airplane.

Ain't dat da facts... just a little over a year ago JetPilot500 didn't even know what a Falcon 900EX was, now he done flyin' 'em all over the planet!

 

[2000flyer]

2000Flyer,

Please don't misinterpret my comments, I was not trying to jab you.

You are correct in that there is more supply than demand for pilots right now. There may be more accounting jobs out there, but there are also a lot more accountants in the world than pilots.

Also, why are you limiting your search to Falcon 2000's? You are a "Corporate" pilot. Your qualifications should make you a candidate to fly just about any corporate airplane.

Good Luck,
JetPilot500

Jet,

My apologies for the "smart a$$" comment. Just one of those days you know.

First of all, I'm not actively seeking employment. Second, have you looked at the want ads lately? When is the last time you saw an ad for, say, a G4 position that said "any corporate aircraft time will do"? Most jobs now being advertised, thanks to a glut of pilot's on the market, want specific time in type, usually a fair amount at that, plus most want a type in their type of aircraft just to get an interview.

True, my experience is competitive to probably get a job on a Challenger or Gulfstream. However, if you have 25 candidates and 15 have types and time in type, who are you going to interview?

2000Flyer

 

[Gulfstream 200]

You COULD be more marketable than you think.
Sounds like you have a good work ethic, etc...

Having time in type is not the golden egg one would think..

I personally think the jobs the REQUIRE time in types are usually the crappier jobs!

Just an observation....

 

[2000flyer]

You COULD be more marketable than you think.
Sounds like you have a good work ethic, etc...

Having time in type is not the golden egg one would think..

I personally think the jobs the REQUIRE time in types are usually the crappier jobs!

Just an observation....

Gulfstream,

You may be correct sir. I have just noticed ads wanting type or time in type or both. Since I never sent a resume, I can't say that they would or wouldn't invite me to an interview.

If, indeed, I start looking, I hope your observations are ON THE MONEY!

Regards,
2000Flyer

 

[Gulfstream 200]

AHHH...another facade..(sp)..

The jobs you SEE advertised for tend to be those crappier jobs I was refering to!

The best jobs dont get advertised until they are really filled. and that advertisement is usually someplace odd just to appease the HR folks. - at least in the corp sector of our biz!

But anyways, at least you have a job you seem to like now. That means a lot.

 

[JetPilot500]

Jet,

My apologies for the "smart a$$" comment. Just one of those days you know.

First of all, I'm not actively seeking employment. Second, have you looked at the want ads lately? When is the last time you saw an ad for, say, a G4 position that said "any corporate aircraft time will do"? Most jobs now being advertised, thanks to a glut of pilot's on the market, want specific time in type, usually a fair amount at that, plus most want a type in their type of aircraft just to get an interview.

True, my experience is competitive to probably get a job on a Challenger or Gulfstream. However, if you have 25 candidates and 15 have types and time in type, who are you going to interview?

2000Flyer

I know everyone has unique situations, but I've been hired by 2 major corporate flight departments in my lifetime. The first one was with one of the largest companies in the world flying a G-IV, and yes economic times were better then. I never flew a Gulfstream before in my life, however. At my current job, with Fortune 100 company, I was hired to be a captain on a Falcon 50EX/900EX. Again, I never flew either of these aircraft. At the time I was hired, I was a furloughed airline pilot about 1 year after 9/11.

I'm not trying to gloat, or make my situation sound better than yours or anything. I'm just trying to point out that opportunites do exist. Don't mentally limit yourself, or you will be limited for sure.

Good Luck,
JetPilot500

 

[Diesel]

When I first started flying I started washing planes to pay for the flying. Worked for the same guy for 7 years ended up in the king air. We were a very small operation in the northland and when there was nothing going on the pilots would all get together cranked up the music and washed the planes down. It was a fun time. We all did mx too. We were young and it was part of the job. Also it was a good time because afterwards we'd all head out on the lake and go waterskiing. The boss was also there washing and cleaning. He lead by example which was nice. It was what it was a great learning experience.

I then worked for a guy who owned a king air the option was mine. I could either have a detail company come in and do it or i could take the money. When we were short of money the wife and i would go down and detail the plane a nice 500 bucks for a good dinner. Don't worry i got paid very well on sallary. It was just nice to have a couple of hundred extra dollars if we were going on vacation.

Now at the frac. I do cleaning that only a dustbuster would do. Beyond that i call the detail shop. I've had some people trash the plane so bad i wouldn't even go back in i just called and had the detail company come right away.

The point of this is. It all depends on the job. We are professionals. These are expensive planes and a lot of first time owners don't understand that they need to be cleaned at it cost money to do it.