Wash-out style of training

[mvedepo]

If it is a good company with an excellent training department, it wont hurt you a bit. Just a minor setback for something better.

You will have to have a good excuse on why you were released from a company for failing to get through training. Its a tough obstacle to overcome. Once you get a another job then it wont be as big of an issue in the future.

 

[jmreii]

You will have to have a good excuse on why you were released from a company for failing to get through training. Its a tough obstacle to overcome. Once you get a another job then it wont be as big of an issue in the future.

you need a good excuse for everything in life; so what else is new

 

[b707guy]

Well, I get to chow on a little crow here. I've learned that our wash-out rate was a bit higher with our last class. I don't know what's behind it, whether the folks we hired weren't up to the task, or if our training department has changed their ways, a combination of the two, or something altogether different. But unfortunately, now there are a few more people out there who have to try to find another job with a recent training failure on the books. If I were the only one in my class to not make it through, I'd be worried about having to explain that. But since there was more than one, at least that bit of background may ease the approach to such a delicate subject matter for the next interview. I'm not saying use that as an excuse, but as an aside that may help the big picture aspect. We have another class starting next week. I hope they fare better!

 

[DC8-PFE]

I happen to be that PFE that washed out of the last ATI training class. My sim partner, a guy coming over from flying caravans was of course a bit overwhelmed. But given his background that's normal. He was a good guy, working hard with a good attitude. But he was let go. I don't know why. In the past I've seen this company bend over backwards to help someone in his situation. In my case, I'm low time about 400 hours total (not counting my few thousand hours as a PFE). I was told the same thing, after 4 days no further training would be done as it was felt that we couldn't make it. I felt that I did no better or worse than many of the PFE's at ATI who upgraded in the past. After talking with the chief pilot, he did in fact mention to me that there was a philosophy shift in the training department. After being given the bad news from the check airman/instructor , I asked for a critique of my performance. Looking to get some answers to better myself for next time. I couldn't get a straight answer. If I can't even fly straight and level I'm big enough to accept that, but no answers were given. So with the last class here at ATI, 2 out of 6 have made it to IOE. Where is this going with ATI? I don't know. I do know that we are way behind the power curve for our future planned growth, this only hurts us more. For those of you at ATI who read this, I even did the dreaded 3 engine NDB into LAX sucessfully.

 

[phr8dawg]

Despite having a surplus of gray hair which in many circles indicates shorted-out brain cells, I survived jet training by averaging out my study habits across ALL the training topics. I was no star, but i wasn't the class mouthpiece who, incidently, didn't make it. Keep yer yack shut and yer brain open. It sinks in eventually.

 

[El Piloto Chido]

I've learned that our wash-out rate was a bit higher with our last class. I don't know what's behind it, whether the folks we hired weren't up to the task, or if our training department has changed their ways, a combination of the two, or something altogether different.

Could it be a supply & demand issue? Perhaps the Caravan guy who got cut was hired into a class full of ex-Kittyhawk types with plenty o' jet time. Thereby setting the curve extra high.

I remember this sort of thing happening post Sept. 11, where you'd see a class of lower time guys (pt 135, t-prop, ect) who'd interviewed before it really hit the fan, combined with super high time wide-body drivers from various airlines.

Are we getting to that point again? Are the classes getting filled with more pt. 121 jet guys these days? It kind of sounds like it, from the sidelines anyway.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I happen to be that PFE that washed out of the last ATI training class... I'm low time about 400 hours total (not counting my few thousand hours as a PFE). I was told the same thing, after 4 days no further training would be done as it was felt that we couldn't make it.

So with the last class here at ATI, 2 out of 6 have made it to IOE. Where is this going with ATI?

How recent was your time, and in what type A/C? Were you fairly proficient on instruments before you started training? If you start out needing 2 sims to get current, you'll be 2 sims behind for the whole program. Knowing company procedures and call-outs can be an asset, but not always enough of one to overcome a lack of currency.

Most carriers average around 95-97% success rates in initial and upgrade training. If only 33% of your class made it through the program, the problem probably lies somewhere other than with the individuals who didn't make it.

 

[jmreii]

How recent was your time, and in what type A/C? Were you fairly proficient on instruments before you started training? If you start out needing 2 sims to get current, you'll be 2 sims behind for the whole program. Knowing company procedures and call-outs can be an asset, but not always enough of one to overcome a lack of currency.

Most carriers average around 95-97% success rates in initial and upgrade training. If only 33% of your class made it through the program, the problem probably lies somewhere other than with the individuals who didn't make it.

you will be surprise that being proficient on instruments will not be enough to get through some checkrides. in some cases judgement matters heavily to the point that safe is better then legal or what it says in the sop's.

 

[Clyde]

I happen to be that PFE that washed out of the last ATI training class. My sim partner, a guy coming over from flying caravans was of course a bit overwhelmed. But given his background that's normal. He was a good guy, working hard with a good attitude. But he was let go. I don't know why. In the past I've seen this company bend over backwards to help someone in his situation. In my case, I'm low time about 400 hours total (not counting my few thousand hours as a PFE). I was told the same thing, after 4 days no further training would be done as it was felt that we couldn't make it. I felt that I did no better or worse than many of the PFE's at ATI who upgraded in the past. After talking with the chief pilot, he did in fact mention to me that there was a philosophy shift in the training department. After being given the bad news from the check airman/instructor , I asked for a critique of my performance. Looking to get some answers to better myself for next time. I couldn't get a straight answer. If I can't even fly straight and level I'm big enough to accept that, but no answers were given. So with the last class here at ATI, 2 out of 6 have made it to IOE. Where is this going with ATI? I don't know. I do know that we are way behind the power curve for our future planned growth, this only hurts us more. For those of you at ATI who read this, I even did the dreaded 3 engine NDB into LAX sucessfully.

I know that Airborne had a very tough DC-8 training program. I wonder that with the purchase of ATI, if some of the old Airborne philosophy has made it's way to ATI?

 

[time builder]

Yea, I mean, I think a major reason that I made excuses is that the reputation for AMF training is ....screw up and your out. Thus, every time I screwed up I thought I was going to get kicked, so I tried to make it look like I wasnt messing up....and that just made it worse! The reality is that they will work with you, to a point....

Bah, water under the bridge now...and I am a better pilot for the experience.

Unfortunately, I think AMF dug themselves into a hole with such a reputation. It was fine when they had plenty of applicants, but now I have friends who won't even apply because they had friends who they looked up to who washed out of AMF training.

Things have definitely changed in the last couple years, there's a lot more forgiveness going on around here, but the reputation is hard to overcome until you see it for yourself.

 

[b707guy]

I know that Airborne had a very tough DC-8 training program. I wonder that with the purchase of ATI, if some of the old Airborne philosophy has made it's way to ATI?

It's certainly possible, but we haven't really had any cross culture exposure between ABX and ourselves for that to be a factor, at least as far as I know. As my DC8-PFE bud said above, our CP mentioned to him a training department philosophy shift. Maybe they have been talking on the side. Either way, I'd be interested in hearing what's behind the shift, as I thought our program (and it's results) in the past has been excellent.

 

[Jurasicpilot]

Did ATI switch over to contract instructors? There was mention of that about a year ago.

I dont know what kind of shift in thinking would cause it but thats a big shift. Usually an airline in ATI's position will do whatever it takes to get someone through. Im sure potential new hires are looking at the profile and thinking Hmmmm.... Wont mention names but normally when other airlines have gone through 3 owners in 3 years, furloughs, 3rd year in contract talks etc etc. They basically try to hand you the keys to the jet, so to speak.

 

[jmreii]

Unfortunately, I think AMF dug themselves into a hole with such a reputation. It was fine when they had plenty of applicants, but now I have friends who won't even apply because they had friends who they looked up to who washed out of AMF training.

Things have definitely changed in the last couple years, there's a lot more forgiveness going on around here, but the reputation is hard to overcome until you see it for yourself.

Kudos to you, you are absolutely right. some people including myself will not even entertain the idea of going to some operator that has a policy of written or not of using the wash-out style of training.
I learn and watch those type of cheap tricks during my tour at mesa. an example for the purist would be questions that come right out of the maintenance manual, but the answer is no where in the POH.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

I know that Airborne had a very tough DC-8 training program. I wonder that with the purchase of ATI, if some of the old Airborne philosophy has made it's way to ATI?

No, there was a dual standard. At ABX the PFEs have never been held to the same standard - and on the line it shows. 500 hours of logbook bug-smasher with 20 years on the panel doesn't equal 3000 hours of regional/military PIC. Never has, never will. In hindsight it's a big mistake to go down the PFE/right seat route although that's where ABX misguidedly went.

 

[erichartmann]

I know that Airborne had a very tough DC-8 training program. I wonder that with the purchase of ATI, if some of the old Airborne philosophy has made it's way to ATI?

The man responsible for Airborne's less than user friendly "training" program is dead. During the "man's" heyday "training" was used as a screening tool to eliminate "marginal" pilots. Now training actually includes training instead the old seven checks and the door if you can't hack it. Also, no longer do we have the "privilege" of climbing into the sim with no trainer prior to a check ride and v1 cut on the first takeoff. The best thing about the "good old days" is they are gone.

 

[BigPappa]

Big Dog,
You must have "Napoleon complex" or you would not be that way. Just be careful with that attitude, if you intend on moving on up in the industry (not saying that you won't).
Just had a "friend" of mine in the training department of an Airline get hired as Southwest for him to get turned down soon after he had resigned his previous position. So what happeded: Somebody (who he had given a hard time) saw his name on the list of new-hires and put a big red X on it. Stay balanced, unless you wanna keep flying props for the rest of your flying "career".

My 0.02

 

[DYLIN]

ATI's minimums are 1500TT/500ME.

Would someone with 2000TT and just 800 RJ SIC even have a chance at getting an interview? I'm considering applying.

If hired then I'd worry about all this washout talk after and have some time to make the decision.

I just don't think my experience is competitive. Does anyone have any input? I've only got about an hour left on the computer if I wanted to complete and submit the application. Again, I meet the minimums but have zero jet PIC. My experience is flight instruction and then one year as an FO in an RJ.

 

[b707guy]

The answer's "no" if you don't ask. Having said that, though, if I were doing the interviewing, I'd be cautious in choosing someone with your times, even if you came across as someone I'd want to work with. I'm not sure why our minimums are what they are, but it's not up to me to set them. Maybe they are a bit more appropriate for 767 flying, I don't know. Some people say an airplane is an airplane, but by that argument, a DC-8 must not be an airplane, at least in the sense of modern design philosophy and operation. Some people with relatively low time have been able to jump in and fly it, but they're a talented, or lucky, or both, minority. Fortunately, we have some of them here. Maybe you're one, too.

 

[Big Dog]

I hear you BigPappa. I'm completely aware that today's FO can be your training captain at your next gig. I had a rough couple of canidates that took significant amounts of extra effort. Only one got through. Call it venting. And of course bitching at work in my position is not the smartest thing to do.
Although I do stand by that a positive attitude and an ability to hang your ego at the door is a huge part of success. My latest canidate was highly motivated and had a great attitude, ready to learn all he could. He has made it through in good time even though he had an extra flight or two.

 

[DYLIN]

The answer's "no" if you don't ask. Having said that, though, if I were doing the interviewing, I'd be cautious in choosing someone with your times, even if you came across as someone I'd want to work with. I'm not sure why our minimums are what they are, but it's not up to me to set them. Maybe they are a bit more appropriate for 767 flying, I don't know. Some people say an airplane is an airplane, but by that argument, a DC-8 must not be an airplane, at least in the sense of modern design philosophy and operation. Some people with relatively low time have been able to jump in and fly it, but they're a talented, or lucky, or both, minority. Fortunately, we have some of them here. Maybe you're one, too.

Thanks for the response. I think I'm going to get through my first recurrent training at my current company which is in the next week, and then I'll think this over a bit more and I'll be checking back on here. I really don't want to apply and be offered an interview unless I'm almost certain I'll take the job (if offered). I still think with my experience that even getting an interview is a long shot at best, but I heard that they could not fill the last class so to me that means the minimums really might be competitive times.

I think someone like me would not have much difficulty with any automation such as dealing with an FMS as the RJ is very high tech and filled with that stuff. Rather, the challenge would likely be dealing with the lack of automation after getting accustomed to it all. I'm thinking of things like our entire electrical system in general...we don't really do anything to it at any phase of flight for example. Or pressurization, etc. Not to mention I'm sure the DC-8 is not quite as easy to handle hand-flying due to it weighing as much as a few RJs put together.

I also realize that it's one thing to pass training, and another to be a valuable resource in the cockpit on the line. With no international experience, the rest of the crew would have to be willing to share their knowledge of it all with a newbie who has never crossed an ocean. Then again, someone I know of who is in class at ATI right now has zero overwater experience (just Canada and Mexico like me...not really 'international') and he got hired...a few hundred hours of turbine PIC but nothing larger than the RJ I'm in.

 

[Rook]

Not to mention I'm sure the DC-8 is not quite as easy to handle hand-flying due to it weighing as much as a few RJs put together.

It might just be easier. I loved hand flying the MD-11 when I was ACMI'ng. Don't sell yourself short. Send in that app and give 'em H*ll.

 

[DYLIN]

It might just be easier. I loved hand flying the MD-11 when I was ACMI'ng. Don't sell yourself short. Send in that app and give 'em H*ll.

Yeah I'm just wondering what it is that spurred the recent wash 'em out rumor regarding ATI. That's the last thing I or anyone else needs on their resume. Then again I faired well in my new-hire training at my current company so I think I'll apply.

 

[DC8-PFE]

"I think someone like me would not have much difficulty with any automation such as dealing with an FMS as the RJ is very high tech and filled with that stuff. Rather, the challenge would likely be dealing with the lack of automation after getting accustomed to it all."


The Jurrassic Jet-The trailing edge of technology, bringing yesterdays technology screaming into the 21st century!

 

[Aviation Geek]

As a guy just starting his CFI's and looking forward, this is some of the best advice/commentary I have read. Thanks.

 

[ERJFO]

Not to mention I'm sure the DC-8 is not quite as easy to handle hand-flying due to it weighing as much as a few RJs put together.

It's like 8 RJ's put together.

 

[laserman2431]

I hear you BigPappa. I'm completely aware that today's FO can be your training captain at your next gig. I had a rough couple of canidates that took significant amounts of extra effort. Only one got through. Call it venting. And of course bitching at work in my position is not the smartest thing to do.
Although I do stand by that a positive attitude and an ability to hang your ego at the door is a huge part of success. My latest canidate was highly motivated and had a great attitude, ready to learn all he could. He has made it through in good time even though he had an extra flight or two.

"yelling" at students is almost never an effective teaching method. You might want to examine if your mothod of instruction is part of the problem. It may be that the one who made it through is the one who was most able to overcome the negative effect of your abuse.

 

[scarface]

If yelling at a student is how someone chooses to harrass,I won't use the word instruct,then do everyone a favor and turn in your letter. I've been a check airman for 20 years and never yelled at a student. I learned how little I learned when "screamers" are the norm when I was a student at Pensacola where screaming, creative cursing (some of it quite funny in retrospect), and clipboard throwing were approved MOIs.
I was under the impression the FAA keeps track of your failure rate and if it gets excessive,20% used to be the threshold, they started looking at your training department.

 

[GogglesPisano]

.
I was under the impression the FAA keeps track of your failure rate and if it gets excessive,20% used to be the threshold, they started looking at your training department.

If only. ACA's RJ bust rate in the late 90's was somewhere around the 50% level. It went on for years. Only after the off-the-chart training costs came to senior management's attention did the massacre end.

As far as yelling goes, it says a lot more about the instructor's childhood than anything else. Inside they're really crying. :crying:

 

[dojetdriver]

If only. ACA's RJ bust rate in the late 90's was somewhere around the 50% level. It went on for years. Only after the off-the-chart training costs came to senior management's attention did the massacre end.

As far as yelling goes, it says a lot more about the instructor's childhood than anything else. Inside they're really crying. :crying:

Agreed. At my current gig, the guy that did my CA's oral told me that for the two years prior, the failure rate for new CA's was just a tad over 50%. I don't think the FAA cares.

What was screwed up at ACA was the fact that many of those failures were guys that had ALREADY been CA's on other fleet types, and passed their rides on those previous types just fine.

 

[FearlessFreep]

It's like 8 RJ's put together.

With the hot steel rivets that they used to use in the construction of bridges & skyscrapers. Now remove all the RJ automation and you got it.

The Diesel 8 is basically a flying bridge.