Wash-out style of training

[El Piloto Chido]

There has been some mention on various threads about 'wash-out' rates for this company or that. I believe someone mentioned ATI's was around 80%. I've heard Omni's was high too. I know the Military uses that approach, but you can always opt for Nav, RIO, supply officer, or an NCO at E6 grade. Point being: Uncle Sam won't usually leave you out on the street.

Is it very common out there for companies to hire a bunch of guys initially, only to wash out most of em?

Most companies I've been with so far will start a class with a few guys of varied backgrounds who are deemed to be a potientally good fit. Some prior 121, some 135, some ex mil, ect. The training is tough, and the checkride ain't no free ride, but you sure as sheet won't find yourself in the unemployment line if you screw the steep turn. H#ll, I've seen guys get a second shot at a checkride, given that the oral/ride as a whole went well- maybe there was just one deficient area that needs ironing out. Obviously, if a guy just doesn't get it, or has a p*ss poor attitude, he probably SHOULD be shown the door. I've personally had a good pass rate so far, but I sure don't like the 'one strike you're out' mentality.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this?

Better yet, which COMPANIES out there 'wash-out' vs 'train up?'

Thanks in advance.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Don't know about ATI, but my buddy on the -10 at Omni thought training was no big deal.

 

[Clyde]

I heard their philosophy is "when in doubt, wash 'em out"

 

[l8fr82hub]

ATI's "washout" rate was pretty much 0% until recently. I've talked to some of our current pilots and it seems like somethings changed in our training department. I'm truly sorry if you were affected by this and I hope you can move on to something better. I personally believe a high washout rate says more about the training department than the individuals being trained. Good luck.

 

[climbhappy]

i think it has more to do with instructor and not the company. some people just can't teach... they cannot relate to different personalities. also, due to their crass nature, they're actually covering for some deep rooted suppressed feelings of inadequacy themselves. i think the medical term is Projection.

solid instrcutors know what "simitis" is and know how to help a guy through it. guys with simitis can fly and on the line are fine.

i have a friend who was passed over upgrade at my outfit and he had a type. i just finished upgrade. i like him and just wish he'd a been given a chance. but in his intitial, he struggled and got through it. so the Dir of training isn't convinced he's a captain. even with the type( he got the type during a furough we had)

 

[MD11Drvr]

World Airways has always had a reputation for wash out but I have never seen where it was done lightly or with little regard to the affect it would have on the candidate. In fact I have seen many times where extra sims are given and the instructors would meet you half way every time based on attitude and whether you took the program seriously enough to study. The ones I have seen washed out for the most part was more an attitude or lack of study problem. WOA seems to have more trouble with guys who are used to a slower paced training schedule or a teach to proficency philosophy. There were several that had been at legacy carriers that WOA had hired while on furlough a few years back that had troubles and every once in a while a retired military guy will have trouble. In the DC-10 we are seeing trouble with some of the younger crowd who have never flown a heavy or jet steam gauge except for a Piper seminole. They are having situational awareness issues with no TV to watch. When I was ATI they seemed the same way inthat you had to apply yourself and they would meet you half way. In every case I have been told of with trouble in training there are 2 sides of the story and most of the time they are vastly different. Very few (myself included) can look in the mirror and except the blame if I did not do well as usually I have no one to blame but myself for a poor performance.

Just my humble opinion for what it worth..............

 

[Big Dog]

training

I know we don't fly heavy iron, but we do a lot of training and I see a lot of pilots. We need every pilot that comes in the door for class on the line but we're lucky if 65% or so get through class. The biggest reason is a poor attitude. It can take many forms. Typical is no/little preperation. "This is just piston freight, what do I NEED to do." We send a fully anotated POH, Flows, GPS Sim and GPS manual and wash outs rarely study anything. Another is distraction. Thinking about everything else in the world, your wife/girlfriend calling every 4 hours, planning your move, whatever. When you come to class you need to be thinking about 1 thing; Passing your checkride. Put everything else in your life on hold and get through class, minimize all other distractions. Another is no/little GPS approach experience. You gotta be able to spin the knobs and push the buttons while you fly, which means you must know how the box works. Poor flying alone rarely bounces people, but every now and then it's really that bad. Not listening to instructors is another. We have a training manual and when in doubt will tell you how it needs to be. Don't reinvent the wheel and feel you need to come up with a new way to fly. Not learning from your mistakes. If you screw up once, no big deal, learn and move on. If you keep making the same mistake 4 and 5 times it shows us one of 2 things; You are either not listening or don't care. Assuming the pilot can do no wrong, it's always the box or the gauge that is messed up. 99% of the time the pilot is messing up. And that's just the short list...

 

[b707guy]

As l8fr8 said above, our washout rate has been pretty much zilch over the years for off-the-street new hires. I understand that one of the five new hires didn't make it through the Feb class, which would explain the 80% figure given, but again, that's only for that class and is not representative of our training history. I think we're actually hardest on our own in that a number of our PFEs who've attempted FO upgrade haven't made it, including the sixth member of the Feb class. A number of PFEs struggled through, and a few sailed through as if they were born in the jet. Our training dept has undergone some changes recently, but unless there are some new trends just getting started, ATI shouldn't be a place to fear being hired into. The only place I've actually seen mentioned, and this was a while back now, was Trans States. I'm not picking on them, nor do I know if that's how it is now, but years ago when I was looking for a job, that was the one place that I was cautioned about.

 

[El Piloto Chido]

B707 guy, thanks for the input (all you guys actually). You mentioned Trans States, I also recall being warned about American Eagle in the same way.

In a nutshell: All of my multi crew PIC has been in big older props (>30,000 lb GTOW) with lots o' steam guages. Some glass, but that was a few years back.

I'm always one to hit the books b4 groundschool, and hit the flows b4 the first sim session. But, when I saw an earlier post mentioning an 80% washout rate, it raised some flags.

Anyway, It'd be great to fly the Douglas Eight.

 

[b707guy]

It'd be great to fly the Douglas Eight.

Well, if you're looking, now's the time to toss your name in the hat!

 

[skipro101]

When I went through initial at Ameriflight, I had some issues.

Mostly, this stemmed from going straight from my 250TT commerical checkride to flying skydivers. Then after 1500 hours of flying skydivers, trying to make it through AMF captain initial. Line training was done in 0F weather with nearly a month of reduced mins t/o. (inversion in SLC kept the pollution/clouds in the valley, creating a month or two of low RVR/VV)

It was a steep curve for me.

I made it worse though...I had an attitude. Now, at the time, I didnt think I did. When I was 90% through training, my training captain told me that I was argumentative.

I couldnt believe it... Me? Argumentative? I was (in my mind) completely humble, and couldnt believe I came off that way.

Looking back, its easy for me to see how it happened. Basically, comming from no IFR experience to AMF, my head was under the water. I knew it, and was trying to compensate...every time I screwed up, I would try to lessen it by making excuses. Instead of just saying "Ok", I would make an excuse. I didnt realize how this made me sound.


Luckily, my training captain had paitence, and I made it through. My short tenure at AMF was just what I needed remedy my IFR deficiency, and after flying out of SLC For 7 months, I am a better pilot....but also a better trainer.

My coworker at my new job exhibits some of the comments/attitude that I had at AMF. My experience at AMF has given me the fortitude to give my coworker the benefit of the doubt in many situations, that I might not have tolerated otherwise. I can put myself in his posistion and see why he doesnt accept responsibility for poor performance. I am NOT saying this attitude is okay, I am definately working to get him to see the light....but still....I can understand the basic human psychological reasoning for adopting excuses. I am working towards trying to get this person to see what I eventually realized...its much better to admit you need help/arent up to speed, than to try and lessen that percpetion by making excuses. I mean, its not like the captain/trainer/instructor can't see that you are not up to speed. Making excuses only makes it worse.

Anyway I'm rambling.

My point, is that usually attitude is a very easy way to fail out of training....I only hope that the training captains/sim instructors don't take their reccomendations lightly....maybe someone (especially those new to airline flying) only needs a attitude correction talk to get them on the right page...instead of just dumping them.

Looking back, if the AMF training captain and I were to have switched shoes, I am not sure, that back then, I would have kept myself in the program. Now....Having been though that experience, hopefully I would be as paitent as he was.

 

[FreightGod]

Lots of good comments on this thread and none of the usual Flight Info BS.

Years ago when I started with Evergreen on the DC-8, they ran a strict military style program: You don't get 80% on the written exam, ya are out..No excuses, no re-testing. A bit nervewrecking and 2 guys in class were given a ticket home..One of them already had a type in the Diesel 8..Go figure.

At other non-scheds I have worked, including as a check airman, they (we) looked at attitudes as well as background/knowledge, etc.
Nobody got booted without being given a second chance.
As we hired more and more low-time guys the training issue was more high-lighted: High-time International guys with time in type did not need much training, just learn OUR procedures and call-outs, show up for training on time and you will get through...

When the low-time guys came onboard, we actually had to TRAIN folks, more or less from scratch.
Less of those guys washed out than the high time guys with an attitude.
It is really easy: If you try hard, the instructors and check airmen will bend over backwards to help you.
If you are lazy and think you know it all, you may be on the street real soon, wondering what happened.

 

[b707guy]

All well said! A little humility goes a long way, and an "I'm here to learn" attitude really makes it more pleasant for the instructors as well. One of the worst things to hear is "we didn't do it that way at company X". Well, I don't think ATI is the only company around that couldn't care less how other companies do their thing. Keep it all in perspective!:beer:

 

[Fedora]

"Cooperate to graduate" is a good philosophy when in a training mode.
B707 dude is right. Leave the "we did it this way at xyz company" attitude at home.
Some very good posts on the subject here. Good discussions going on.
I'd also recommend not shopping for a job based on rumors of their training department. If you're weak or get "simitis" all the time, then maybe you should rethink things for sure, but we all need to start thinking about a training event as a chance to improve and not a chance at failure. Frankly, I've seen a trend where folks don't seem to think that putting in the study time each night in training is worth it. Most programs let you know in advance of each sim session what is going to be covered. If you study for each session and have the right "attitude" you will do OK. On the other hand, the 7 P's can wash you out. (poor prior planning produces p**s poor performance).
I once was a Chief Pilot and had an ex Bird Colonel working for me. He had 20k hours and could fly circles around me. We both wound up applying at the same airline. I struggled but got through my rate ride. He showed up the day the FAA was in the box, and the Fed told him "I hear you're pretty good". The Colonel told him "just watch and see". It wasn't a good day for him, and he copped an "attitude" that the sim had a problem. (no APU or something) and he got in an argument about how the check was going, demanding that the ride be stopped so he could voice his concerns. Needless to say he didn't make it and I wound up getting a job.
"Cooperate=Graduate"
End of story.
Good luck to all and keep up the good discussion.

 

[Big Dog]

Cooperate/Graduate

Leave it to the freight dogs to come up with a meaningful discussion. skipro101 has said it very well. He managed to voice what I see very often, in both initial and transition training. I get very frustrated quickly with student excuses. My job is to sit there and watch you make mistakes, occasionally look outside and make sure we don't hit anything. I usually end up yelling at the student until he submits and realizes he still has things to learn and yes, I HAVE done this once or twice. I wish I could have more patience but we just don't have the time or money. So we break you down and build you back up. Many people just need to be shown that they can't handle it. Once that happens, things go much better. Mistakes are corrected, procedures practiced and progress is made. Cooperate/Graduate is a great way to look at it. Submit to the program fully and you WILL learn, even if your skills aren't up to par coming in the door.

 

[skipro101]

Yea, I mean, I think a major reason that I made excuses is that the reputation for AMF training is ....screw up and your out. Thus, every time I screwed up I thought I was going to get kicked, so I tried to make it look like I wasnt messing up....and that just made it worse! The reality is that they will work with you, to a point....

Bah, water under the bridge now...and I am a better pilot for the experience.

 

[hate2bL8]

I had a friend make one mistake on his ride and was not given a second chance. Nicest guy you would ever meet no attitude no chip on the shoulder;however,had he passed and decided to quit the company would be after him for the cost of training. this makes absolutely no sense!!

 

[jmreii]

Lots of good comments on this thread and none of the usual Flight Info BS.

Years ago when I started with Evergreen on the DC-8, they ran a strict military style program: You don't get 80% on the written exam, ya are out..No excuses, no re-testing. A bit nervewrecking and 2 guys in class were given a ticket home..One of them already had a type in the Diesel 8..Go figure.

At other non-scheds I have worked, including as a check airman, they (we) looked at attitudes as well as background/knowledge, etc.
Nobody got booted without being given a second chance.
As we hired more and more low-time guys the training issue was more high-lighted: High-time International guys with time in type did not need much training, just learn OUR procedures and call-outs, show up for training on time and you will get through...

When the low-time guys came onboard, we actually had to TRAIN folks, more or less from scratch.
Less of those guys washed out than the high time guys with an attitude.
It is really easy: If you try hard, the instructors and check airmen will bend over backwards to help you.
If you are lazy and think you know it all, you may be on the street real soon, wondering what happened.

very good post, also mesa and amflight should be added to the list.

 

[laserman2431]

"I usually end up yelling at the student until he submits and realizes he still has things to learn and yes,"

Dear loser,

It's unfortunate that mnay companies have at least one instructor who has a large a$$hole right in the middle of his forehead. I'm guessing the other children were mean to you.

 

[climbhappy]

while we're on the subject of training, anyone of you ever had this : most IPs will say that the sim should follow a normal progression. a curve that keeps going up. on my first type ride, i came in and shined the first three days then had the bad sim. i actually think i just drank too much coffee and i was having a caffeine crash. my partner started weak then tied it together. well, i was told i had to have one more sim. they sent him through and asked me to ride support. i had to swallow some humble pie and it made me better. i regrouped and and nailed the ride and realize that this progression thing makes sense.

on my recent 73 typeride , my curve was normal, the ride ends up being easy or easier...My IPs have said," the checkride will be a breeze and it usually is.
what's ya'll take...do rides seem easier? ithink so..