Wash-out style of training

[mvedepo]

If it is a good company with an excellent training department, it wont hurt you a bit. Just a minor setback for something better.

You will have to have a good excuse on why you were released from a company for failing to get through training. Its a tough obstacle to overcome. Once you get a another job then it wont be as big of an issue in the future.

 

[jmreii]

You will have to have a good excuse on why you were released from a company for failing to get through training. Its a tough obstacle to overcome. Once you get a another job then it wont be as big of an issue in the future.

you need a good excuse for everything in life; so what else is new

 

[b707guy]

Well, I get to chow on a little crow here. I've learned that our wash-out rate was a bit higher with our last class. I don't know what's behind it, whether the folks we hired weren't up to the task, or if our training department has changed their ways, a combination of the two, or something altogether different. But unfortunately, now there are a few more people out there who have to try to find another job with a recent training failure on the books. If I were the only one in my class to not make it through, I'd be worried about having to explain that. But since there was more than one, at least that bit of background may ease the approach to such a delicate subject matter for the next interview. I'm not saying use that as an excuse, but as an aside that may help the big picture aspect. We have another class starting next week. I hope they fare better!

 

[DC8-PFE]

I happen to be that PFE that washed out of the last ATI training class. My sim partner, a guy coming over from flying caravans was of course a bit overwhelmed. But given his background that's normal. He was a good guy, working hard with a good attitude. But he was let go. I don't know why. In the past I've seen this company bend over backwards to help someone in his situation. In my case, I'm low time about 400 hours total (not counting my few thousand hours as a PFE). I was told the same thing, after 4 days no further training would be done as it was felt that we couldn't make it. I felt that I did no better or worse than many of the PFE's at ATI who upgraded in the past. After talking with the chief pilot, he did in fact mention to me that there was a philosophy shift in the training department. After being given the bad news from the check airman/instructor , I asked for a critique of my performance. Looking to get some answers to better myself for next time. I couldn't get a straight answer. If I can't even fly straight and level I'm big enough to accept that, but no answers were given. So with the last class here at ATI, 2 out of 6 have made it to IOE. Where is this going with ATI? I don't know. I do know that we are way behind the power curve for our future planned growth, this only hurts us more. For those of you at ATI who read this, I even did the dreaded 3 engine NDB into LAX sucessfully.

 

[phr8dawg]

Despite having a surplus of gray hair which in many circles indicates shorted-out brain cells, I survived jet training by averaging out my study habits across ALL the training topics. I was no star, but i wasn't the class mouthpiece who, incidently, didn't make it. Keep yer yack shut and yer brain open. It sinks in eventually.

 

[El Piloto Chido]

I've learned that our wash-out rate was a bit higher with our last class. I don't know what's behind it, whether the folks we hired weren't up to the task, or if our training department has changed their ways, a combination of the two, or something altogether different.

Could it be a supply & demand issue? Perhaps the Caravan guy who got cut was hired into a class full of ex-Kittyhawk types with plenty o' jet time. Thereby setting the curve extra high.

I remember this sort of thing happening post Sept. 11, where you'd see a class of lower time guys (pt 135, t-prop, ect) who'd interviewed before it really hit the fan, combined with super high time wide-body drivers from various airlines.

Are we getting to that point again? Are the classes getting filled with more pt. 121 jet guys these days? It kind of sounds like it, from the sidelines anyway.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I happen to be that PFE that washed out of the last ATI training class... I'm low time about 400 hours total (not counting my few thousand hours as a PFE). I was told the same thing, after 4 days no further training would be done as it was felt that we couldn't make it.

So with the last class here at ATI, 2 out of 6 have made it to IOE. Where is this going with ATI?

How recent was your time, and in what type A/C? Were you fairly proficient on instruments before you started training? If you start out needing 2 sims to get current, you'll be 2 sims behind for the whole program. Knowing company procedures and call-outs can be an asset, but not always enough of one to overcome a lack of currency.

Most carriers average around 95-97% success rates in initial and upgrade training. If only 33% of your class made it through the program, the problem probably lies somewhere other than with the individuals who didn't make it.

 

[jmreii]

How recent was your time, and in what type A/C? Were you fairly proficient on instruments before you started training? If you start out needing 2 sims to get current, you'll be 2 sims behind for the whole program. Knowing company procedures and call-outs can be an asset, but not always enough of one to overcome a lack of currency.

Most carriers average around 95-97% success rates in initial and upgrade training. If only 33% of your class made it through the program, the problem probably lies somewhere other than with the individuals who didn't make it.

you will be surprise that being proficient on instruments will not be enough to get through some checkrides. in some cases judgement matters heavily to the point that safe is better then legal or what it says in the sop's.

 

[Clyde]

I happen to be that PFE that washed out of the last ATI training class. My sim partner, a guy coming over from flying caravans was of course a bit overwhelmed. But given his background that's normal. He was a good guy, working hard with a good attitude. But he was let go. I don't know why. In the past I've seen this company bend over backwards to help someone in his situation. In my case, I'm low time about 400 hours total (not counting my few thousand hours as a PFE). I was told the same thing, after 4 days no further training would be done as it was felt that we couldn't make it. I felt that I did no better or worse than many of the PFE's at ATI who upgraded in the past. After talking with the chief pilot, he did in fact mention to me that there was a philosophy shift in the training department. After being given the bad news from the check airman/instructor , I asked for a critique of my performance. Looking to get some answers to better myself for next time. I couldn't get a straight answer. If I can't even fly straight and level I'm big enough to accept that, but no answers were given. So with the last class here at ATI, 2 out of 6 have made it to IOE. Where is this going with ATI? I don't know. I do know that we are way behind the power curve for our future planned growth, this only hurts us more. For those of you at ATI who read this, I even did the dreaded 3 engine NDB into LAX sucessfully.

I know that Airborne had a very tough DC-8 training program. I wonder that with the purchase of ATI, if some of the old Airborne philosophy has made it's way to ATI?

 

[time builder]

Yea, I mean, I think a major reason that I made excuses is that the reputation for AMF training is ....screw up and your out. Thus, every time I screwed up I thought I was going to get kicked, so I tried to make it look like I wasnt messing up....and that just made it worse! The reality is that they will work with you, to a point....

Bah, water under the bridge now...and I am a better pilot for the experience.

Unfortunately, I think AMF dug themselves into a hole with such a reputation. It was fine when they had plenty of applicants, but now I have friends who won't even apply because they had friends who they looked up to who washed out of AMF training.

Things have definitely changed in the last couple years, there's a lot more forgiveness going on around here, but the reputation is hard to overcome until you see it for yourself.

 

[b707guy]

I know that Airborne had a very tough DC-8 training program. I wonder that with the purchase of ATI, if some of the old Airborne philosophy has made it's way to ATI?

It's certainly possible, but we haven't really had any cross culture exposure between ABX and ourselves for that to be a factor, at least as far as I know. As my DC8-PFE bud said above, our CP mentioned to him a training department philosophy shift. Maybe they have been talking on the side. Either way, I'd be interested in hearing what's behind the shift, as I thought our program (and it's results) in the past has been excellent.

 

[Jurasicpilot]

Did ATI switch over to contract instructors? There was mention of that about a year ago.

I dont know what kind of shift in thinking would cause it but thats a big shift. Usually an airline in ATI's position will do whatever it takes to get someone through. Im sure potential new hires are looking at the profile and thinking Hmmmm.... Wont mention names but normally when other airlines have gone through 3 owners in 3 years, furloughs, 3rd year in contract talks etc etc. They basically try to hand you the keys to the jet, so to speak.

 

[jmreii]

Unfortunately, I think AMF dug themselves into a hole with such a reputation. It was fine when they had plenty of applicants, but now I have friends who won't even apply because they had friends who they looked up to who washed out of AMF training.

Things have definitely changed in the last couple years, there's a lot more forgiveness going on around here, but the reputation is hard to overcome until you see it for yourself.

Kudos to you, you are absolutely right. some people including myself will not even entertain the idea of going to some operator that has a policy of written or not of using the wash-out style of training.
I learn and watch those type of cheap tricks during my tour at mesa. an example for the purist would be questions that come right out of the maintenance manual, but the answer is no where in the POH.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

I know that Airborne had a very tough DC-8 training program. I wonder that with the purchase of ATI, if some of the old Airborne philosophy has made it's way to ATI?

No, there was a dual standard. At ABX the PFEs have never been held to the same standard - and on the line it shows. 500 hours of logbook bug-smasher with 20 years on the panel doesn't equal 3000 hours of regional/military PIC. Never has, never will. In hindsight it's a big mistake to go down the PFE/right seat route although that's where ABX misguidedly went.

 

[erichartmann]

I know that Airborne had a very tough DC-8 training program. I wonder that with the purchase of ATI, if some of the old Airborne philosophy has made it's way to ATI?

The man responsible for Airborne's less than user friendly "training" program is dead. During the "man's" heyday "training" was used as a screening tool to eliminate "marginal" pilots. Now training actually includes training instead the old seven checks and the door if you can't hack it. Also, no longer do we have the "privilege" of climbing into the sim with no trainer prior to a check ride and v1 cut on the first takeoff. The best thing about the "good old days" is they are gone.