Wash-out style of training

[Big Dog]

Perfect Example

"I usually end up yelling at the student until he submits and realizes he still has things to learn and yes,"

Dear loser,

It's unfortunate that mnay companies have at least one instructor who has a large a$$hole right in the middle of his forehead. I'm guessing the other children were mean to you.

This is the combative attitude. I bet you never make mistakes in the airplane, it's always the gauge, the GPS, the database, the sim, the instructor; an excuse for every situation of poor airmanship.
Just submit and learn. Cooperate/Graduate

 

[b707guy]

My training history usually consisted of:
Day 1 Crap, Where'd we find this guy?
Day 2 Shine, OK then!
Day 3 Really impressive, glad we found him
Day 4 Crap, whoops...
Day 5 Regroup and shine, Phew!
Day 6 Nice Checkride, congrats!

I don't know that there's a "normal" progression. Everyone's different. The mid-program sims I've always found to be the most difficult because
you're supposed to know what you're doing then so you get the more challenging events, plus you're cramming as much in so you can concentrate on the impending checkride. That's what seems to be "normal" for me anyway. I also sealed up the ol' forehead sphincter a long time ago. That helps me get through days 1 and 4. The other days then just become pudding for the line.

 

[8inMan]

I think almost all companies that hire pilots to fly single pilot, multi-engine, part 135(such as AMF) end up with a pretty high washout rate. There just is no way around it. When you are flight training in an actual airplane that is consuming lots of gas, especially a turbine, you can't train and train and train. If the student isn't progressing at all or if you're spending more time teaching the student how to fly instruments then teaching them the airplane and company profiles, it just isn't going to work. I've taken extra time to train a student if he/she is progressing slowly, but there defenitely has to be some progression. If not, I'm sorry, but you probably just aren't cut out for this stuff. Go get a job in the front office of some shiny airplane that practically flies itself and if something goes wrong, you'll have another pilot there to help sort things out. Flying a beat up 30 year old freighter alone to 1800rvr isn't a job everyone can do.

 

[laserman2431]

"...the GPS, the database, the sim, the instructor; an excuse for every situation of poor airmanship."

Hmm. If I have a situation of poor airmanship, I'll watch to see how I respond.

 

[asaflyer]

I can speak from experience when I say that the worst thing you can do for any length of time is fly jumpers. I did this for a while and then went to Flight Express back in '98. They put me and my class through the ringer. We all made it (only 3) but it was tough. And that was just a 210. I have a E120 type from ASA which I considered pretty tough, but I had more experience then. I think it's just what your used to. I haven't been in a E120 for 6 years and I know it would kick my butt now. I will agree that it's 90% attitude.

 

[AZaviator]

Has anyone had the pleasure of doing the 2am-6am sim session for 7 days straight? I did it a few months ago and it was rough! I tried several different sleep schedules and came to the conclusion that none of them were going to work at those hours. Lucky for me, I had really good sim instructors and a great sim partner. However, I wouldn't wish the 2am-6am sim schedule on anyone.

climbhappy and b707guy are right on about the training progression. I experienced exactly what they were saying:
Sims: 1-3 all went really well; normal progression.
Sim 4: WTF?????
Sim 5,6, & checkride: back on track and all went well.

 

[jmreii]

I think almost all companies that hire pilots to fly single pilot, multi-engine, part 135(such as AMF) end up with a pretty high washout rate. There just is no way around it. When you are flight training in an actual airplane that is consuming lots of gas, especially a turbine, you can't train and train and train. If the student isn't progressing at all or if you're spending more time teaching the student how to fly instruments then teaching them the airplane and company profiles, it just isn't going to work. I've taken extra time to train a student if he/she is progressing slowly, but there defenitely has to be some progression. If not, I'm sorry, but you probably just aren't cut out for this stuff. Go get a job in the front office of some shiny airplane that practically flies itself and if something goes wrong, you'll have another pilot there to help sort things out. Flying a beat up 30 year old freighter alone to 1800rvr isn't a job everyone can do.

too bad a jet does not fly like a turboprop, that was my first lesson, blocking out turboprop exerience.

 

[hate2bL8]

the biggest A$$hole IP trains out of MIA and he knows who he is. Because he has flown in Vietnam when many of us were still in Diapers. The only reason he has his part time gig is because the company needs Instructors!! constantly forgetting things..

 

[mvedepo]

ATI's "washout" rate was pretty much 0% until recently. I've talked to some of our current pilots and it seems like somethings changed in our training department. I'm truly sorry if you were affected by this and I hope you can move on to something better. I personally believe a high washout rate says more about the training department than the individuals being trained. Good luck.

until you interview somewhere else. Not getting through training somewhere can really hurt you in the future unfortunately. Especially the next position you are trying to apply for.

 

[jmreii]

until you interview somewhere else. Not getting through training somewhere can really hurt you in the future unfortunately. Especially the next position you are trying to apply for.

If it is a good company with an excellent training department, it wont hurt you a bit. Just a minor setback for something better.

 

[mvedepo]

If it is a good company with an excellent training department, it wont hurt you a bit. Just a minor setback for something better.

You will have to have a good excuse on why you were released from a company for failing to get through training. Its a tough obstacle to overcome. Once you get a another job then it wont be as big of an issue in the future.

 

[jmreii]

You will have to have a good excuse on why you were released from a company for failing to get through training. Its a tough obstacle to overcome. Once you get a another job then it wont be as big of an issue in the future.

you need a good excuse for everything in life; so what else is new

 

[b707guy]

Well, I get to chow on a little crow here. I've learned that our wash-out rate was a bit higher with our last class. I don't know what's behind it, whether the folks we hired weren't up to the task, or if our training department has changed their ways, a combination of the two, or something altogether different. But unfortunately, now there are a few more people out there who have to try to find another job with a recent training failure on the books. If I were the only one in my class to not make it through, I'd be worried about having to explain that. But since there was more than one, at least that bit of background may ease the approach to such a delicate subject matter for the next interview. I'm not saying use that as an excuse, but as an aside that may help the big picture aspect. We have another class starting next week. I hope they fare better!

 

[DC8-PFE]

I happen to be that PFE that washed out of the last ATI training class. My sim partner, a guy coming over from flying caravans was of course a bit overwhelmed. But given his background that's normal. He was a good guy, working hard with a good attitude. But he was let go. I don't know why. In the past I've seen this company bend over backwards to help someone in his situation. In my case, I'm low time about 400 hours total (not counting my few thousand hours as a PFE). I was told the same thing, after 4 days no further training would be done as it was felt that we couldn't make it. I felt that I did no better or worse than many of the PFE's at ATI who upgraded in the past. After talking with the chief pilot, he did in fact mention to me that there was a philosophy shift in the training department. After being given the bad news from the check airman/instructor , I asked for a critique of my performance. Looking to get some answers to better myself for next time. I couldn't get a straight answer. If I can't even fly straight and level I'm big enough to accept that, but no answers were given. So with the last class here at ATI, 2 out of 6 have made it to IOE. Where is this going with ATI? I don't know. I do know that we are way behind the power curve for our future planned growth, this only hurts us more. For those of you at ATI who read this, I even did the dreaded 3 engine NDB into LAX sucessfully.

 

[phr8dawg]

Despite having a surplus of gray hair which in many circles indicates shorted-out brain cells, I survived jet training by averaging out my study habits across ALL the training topics. I was no star, but i wasn't the class mouthpiece who, incidently, didn't make it. Keep yer yack shut and yer brain open. It sinks in eventually.

 

[El Piloto Chido]

I've learned that our wash-out rate was a bit higher with our last class. I don't know what's behind it, whether the folks we hired weren't up to the task, or if our training department has changed their ways, a combination of the two, or something altogether different.

Could it be a supply & demand issue? Perhaps the Caravan guy who got cut was hired into a class full of ex-Kittyhawk types with plenty o' jet time. Thereby setting the curve extra high.

I remember this sort of thing happening post Sept. 11, where you'd see a class of lower time guys (pt 135, t-prop, ect) who'd interviewed before it really hit the fan, combined with super high time wide-body drivers from various airlines.

Are we getting to that point again? Are the classes getting filled with more pt. 121 jet guys these days? It kind of sounds like it, from the sidelines anyway.

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

I happen to be that PFE that washed out of the last ATI training class... I'm low time about 400 hours total (not counting my few thousand hours as a PFE). I was told the same thing, after 4 days no further training would be done as it was felt that we couldn't make it.

So with the last class here at ATI, 2 out of 6 have made it to IOE. Where is this going with ATI?

How recent was your time, and in what type A/C? Were you fairly proficient on instruments before you started training? If you start out needing 2 sims to get current, you'll be 2 sims behind for the whole program. Knowing company procedures and call-outs can be an asset, but not always enough of one to overcome a lack of currency.

Most carriers average around 95-97% success rates in initial and upgrade training. If only 33% of your class made it through the program, the problem probably lies somewhere other than with the individuals who didn't make it.

 

[jmreii]

How recent was your time, and in what type A/C? Were you fairly proficient on instruments before you started training? If you start out needing 2 sims to get current, you'll be 2 sims behind for the whole program. Knowing company procedures and call-outs can be an asset, but not always enough of one to overcome a lack of currency.

Most carriers average around 95-97% success rates in initial and upgrade training. If only 33% of your class made it through the program, the problem probably lies somewhere other than with the individuals who didn't make it.

you will be surprise that being proficient on instruments will not be enough to get through some checkrides. in some cases judgement matters heavily to the point that safe is better then legal or what it says in the sop's.

 

[Clyde]

I happen to be that PFE that washed out of the last ATI training class. My sim partner, a guy coming over from flying caravans was of course a bit overwhelmed. But given his background that's normal. He was a good guy, working hard with a good attitude. But he was let go. I don't know why. In the past I've seen this company bend over backwards to help someone in his situation. In my case, I'm low time about 400 hours total (not counting my few thousand hours as a PFE). I was told the same thing, after 4 days no further training would be done as it was felt that we couldn't make it. I felt that I did no better or worse than many of the PFE's at ATI who upgraded in the past. After talking with the chief pilot, he did in fact mention to me that there was a philosophy shift in the training department. After being given the bad news from the check airman/instructor , I asked for a critique of my performance. Looking to get some answers to better myself for next time. I couldn't get a straight answer. If I can't even fly straight and level I'm big enough to accept that, but no answers were given. So with the last class here at ATI, 2 out of 6 have made it to IOE. Where is this going with ATI? I don't know. I do know that we are way behind the power curve for our future planned growth, this only hurts us more. For those of you at ATI who read this, I even did the dreaded 3 engine NDB into LAX sucessfully.

I know that Airborne had a very tough DC-8 training program. I wonder that with the purchase of ATI, if some of the old Airborne philosophy has made it's way to ATI?

 

[time builder]

Yea, I mean, I think a major reason that I made excuses is that the reputation for AMF training is ....screw up and your out. Thus, every time I screwed up I thought I was going to get kicked, so I tried to make it look like I wasnt messing up....and that just made it worse! The reality is that they will work with you, to a point....

Bah, water under the bridge now...and I am a better pilot for the experience.

Unfortunately, I think AMF dug themselves into a hole with such a reputation. It was fine when they had plenty of applicants, but now I have friends who won't even apply because they had friends who they looked up to who washed out of AMF training.

Things have definitely changed in the last couple years, there's a lot more forgiveness going on around here, but the reputation is hard to overcome until you see it for yourself.