Virgin America Revenue...

[Mamma]

So Fubijaakr, you feel that a low paying non-unionized airline like Virgin is dragging the industry down. Its not fair. But, on the same hand, you will advocate the single most destructive and stagnating factor in our industry...age 65 as being acceptable and fair. Seems like it is all "me me me me" with you. Maybe if age 65 did not happen, stagnation and future prospects would not be as grim and outfits like Virgin would have to pay more to attract pilots. Now, I understand it happened and it is what it is now. But, so did Virgin. They happened and they are here.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Not really. My only point with Age 65 is that it's a done deal. It isn't going away. Crying over spilled milk won't change anything.

 

[Mamma]

Not really. My only point with Age 65 is that it's a done deal. It isn't going away. Crying over spilled milk won't change anything.

No. The law is the law but the choice is still yours. You could retire at age 60 along with the rest of the "pro-union" and "pro-profession" pilots and help the industry. But, most are choosing to stay and stagnating the profession and soon wages. Thanks ALPA for this gift.

 

[mxer]

Perhaps you could point out the crappy wages from your own history. And how your UNION, like ours, eventually raised them through contract negotiations instead of trying to bully and embarrass me personally.

The propensity of you and your SWA cronies to continue to gang up on people who disagree with you is childish and ugly.

And you might also point out that while you were engaged in that battle, SWAPA union members were welcome to share in the negotiated Union privileges of other airline pilot unions.

Now thats just funny. Fubi, I had to double check that it was you posting this. Pot/Kettle. "eventually raised them..." Same will most likely happen here. All in due time. Instead of trying to "bully and embarrass" VX pilots with your personal attacks and insults, try a little support and encouragement. Every word of your post is just awesome.

 

[Fubijaakr]

Wrong. Thank ICAO and the Congress for the gift. Last time I checked, ALPA isn't one of the three branches of government.

 

[Mamma]

Wrong. Thank ICAO and the Congress for the gift. Last time I checked, ALPA isn't one of the three branches of government.

Then why even have a union? Do you think if Prater actually listened to his membership and advocated no change this would have gone through? Probably. BUT, what if Prater actually listened to his membership and had a pair of balls? Imagine him going on the View, Oprah and taking out ads in the papers saying how the 60,000 pilot strong union does not advocate this change due to safety concerns and destruction of careers? Hmmmmmmmm. I imagine the soccer moms would have put some serious heat on Oberstar and Congress to not change this law. So, no, I saw that ALPA dishonestly gave Congress the gift of their rubber stamp and this went though. ALPA did not even give the rank and file the benefit of a reach around with a delayed integration program.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I think ALPA recognized the inevitability of the change and decided it was more profitable expenditure of time and assets protecting retirement language.

We weren't going to stop that train. So why expend lobbying capital to try. At some point you have to trust the judgment of the guy on the scene rather than rely on polling data.

 

[Mamma]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion. I think ALPA recognized the inevitability of the change and decided it was more profitable expenditure of time and assets protecting retirement language.

We weren't going to stop that train. So why expend lobbying capital to try. At some point you have to trust the judgment of the guy on the scene rather than rely on polling data.

What about the Allied Pilots Association? They opposed Age 65 but ALPA let them twist in the wind. Imagine the influence of both unions combined? Defeatists like you who say "it was going to happen anyway" to an incredibly destructive event towards the profession deserve no respect in a true union.

 

[NEDude]

1. I don't think we've been called "evil."
2. If we are, it's not because we aren't ALPA.
3. You seem to drag ALPA into this more than any other person in these threads.
4. As much as I dislike the guy, I don't agree that he believes that ALPA is flawless and makes everything perfect.

It would help if you would step back a little bit and calm down. There are plenty of legitimate gripes about how poorly we are compensated and how that makes it harder for other pilots to justify their pay.

I have to respectfully disagree with you regarding points one and two - fubi, and others, have called us evil due to among other things not being ALPA. Fubi has in many posts on other threads voiced open contempt for Teamsters, APA, SWAPA and any and every non-ALPA union out there. So yes, when addressing him, I point out ALPA specifically.

BTW - I have fun getting him riled up as well. Certainly is a fun way to pass the time on reserve.

 

[NEDude]

Why would you assume we have no scope protection? Alaska Airlines scope clause says all flying will be done by pilots in the seniority list. But....we cannot stop the Air Group from starting another airline, scoping out Horizon flying to Skywest or even buying another airline like Hawaiian and running them as a separate op like Horizon. The rebranding of Alaska Airlines livery on Horizon and Skywest planes is being worked on but it's a process. NEdude thinks ALPA can negotiate whatever we want when really its a case of give and take. At least we have a seat at the table to push for things important to us vs having no say.

So you are claiming that Alaska Airlines marketing and selling tickets on flights operated with Alaska Airlines flight numbers is not Alaska Airlines flying?

Okay, just wanted to get that straight.

For the record, in case people have missed it the many times I have posted it - I AM NOT ANTI-UNION OR EVEN ANTI-ALPA. I HAVE NEVER BLAMED ALPA FOR MY FURLOUGHS. I have been a happy dues paying member of both ALPA and Teamsters and was part of an ALPA organizing committee!! I have also never claimed that pay and benefits were great at Virgin, only that they were significantly better than what I was making at an ALPA regional and that there are union wages out there that are the same or less than Virgin.

What I am opposed to is baseless statements that pilots at Virgin America (or JetBlue or Allegiant) are seniority hopping low time pilots who are responsible for dragging wages down. Numerous factors, including some bad decisions made by ALPA groups, are the reason wages have dropped. I cannot speak to the JetBlue or Allegiant pilots, but the majority of pilots at Virgin are ex-TWA, Midwest, ATA, Aloha, USA3000, United, USAirways, not a bunch of 25 year old RJ drivers looking for a short cut (as fubi has claimed on many occasions).

If the time comes that we at Virgin decide we need to unionize, I will fully support it and even take an active role in doing so as I did in the past. But I am not going to live in the fantasy land that so many ALPA cheerleaders like to promote that going union will solve our issues. In fact in the near to mid term a union may even create more issues. But the decision to organize rests solely with the Virgin pilots and nobody else, regardless of what others may think it does to the industry. That is the standard that is applied to groups who vote to give up scope - it was their decision, their perogative, regardless of how it may affect the rest of the industry. If you apply that standard to one pilot group, and don't apply it to another, that is called hypocrisy. For the record, I don't like or respect hypocrites.