Video from CNBC-Santulli CEO NetJets

[amaineiac]

The model is dead, and always has been.

The objective was to get to get to a "critical mass" and they have achieved it, but they still lose money.

Netjets has made money 18 months out of their 20 years of their life.

RTS is a very smart guy, but it simply doesn't work.

Busines is down by 25% and that means they have to cut costs by the same amount. Do the math and that tells how many crewmembers have to go.

If the business model doesn't work, wouldn't you have to cut all the crewmembers, not just 25%?

Crawl back under your bridge little troll.

 

[pilot772]

jpeace,

You're understandably incredibly stressed about the whole situation.

But if you're planning on coming back and raising hell for some perceived injustice visited upon you by our pilots, then perhaps you should turn your 3-year LTLOA into a more permanent situation.

Who are you gonna raise hell with? You going to poll every pilot in the company to find out who participated and who didn't?

I'm doing my part. Others are too. In the end though, it's not the PILOTS who would be putting you on the street. The pilots (even the ones who don't participate) didn't cause the economy to tank in a big way. The pilots didn't cause NJ's management to overhire in anticipation of aircraft that aren't showing up now. The pilots aren't selling back shares of these jets.

What the pilots you're hating so much DID do is vote in not one, but TWO contracts that gave the junior folks the biggest gains. The pilots (through union leadership) have created an unprecedented package to help ease a little of the pain for the folks who would otherwise have ZERO options and simply be out on the street with a bunch of their brethren.

You aren't being "forced" to do anything. Don't take any LOA and just accept the furlough. After all, isn't that the standard of how it's pretty much always been done everywhere else?

I truly am sorry that your choice is leave with a little pay and benefits, or leave with nothing. I am sincere in this sentiment. The common thread between the two is that you have to leave. But at least you have some choice.

But if you're planning on coming back here and acting like a total jerk, then perhaps you weren't a good fit here to begin with.

Here is the problem, there are people on the union board and the road saying that they don't want to do anything because "nothing is in it for them" that is the attitude I believe Jpeace is referring to. The company has set this up perfectly for themselves. Offer voluntary measures and when they don't work junior folks can blame the senior ones, thus dividing the pilot group. We have seen this kind of thing happen at most of the major airlines. Senior pilots selling the junior ones down the river. While I don't believe this is happening at NJA, and am very grateful for everyones participataion. IF a large number are sent to the streets for 3 years many will come back with the attitude of: bitterness, pissed, wanting to get theirs, etc and perhaps feeling that they were sold down the river. Unfortunately thats just human nature, especially with many mid to high seniority folks both on the boards and on the road saying I'm not doing anything cause "whats in it for me?" If the level of participation goes up dramatically in the last week and furloughs are averted you will see perhaps the strongest most unified union possible heading into contract negotiations in 2015-2016. If the other end of the spectrum happens who knows.

 

[realityman]

pilot772,

You make some very good and well thought out points. However, I've been perusing the union boards, and I haven't seen one single post from anyone saying they wouldn't participate because "what's in it for me?". Could you PM me with the specific threads on our message boards where folks are saying this?

As for what's said on the road, I haven't heard much of anything. If we do have pilots who are ruminating out loud about driving their boat or how they're going to furnish their new $600K home, then that is most definitely in bad form right now!

I agree with you that this whole JPMC thing is creating some division right now, however I do question your belief that management did this for that exact purpose. Mainly because it was OUR UNION who helped put this together and guided management towards a friendlier version of simply putting folks on the street. I think this whole thing was put together not to divide, but to hopefully save as many jobs as possible, and to make the jobs not saved at least a tad bit better than simply "goodbye, good luck, see ya in a few years maybe".

And are you SURE it's mainly senior folks who aren't participating? How do you know that the majority of the 900 pilots not participating aren't, in fact, in the bottom half of the seniority list? After all, they make less, so probably have less to give up, and may therefore be more inclined not to participate. Although you probably didn't intend to do it, you're already scapegoating the senior folks. All that talk about how it's typical for the senior folks to sell the junior folks down the river. That's why I wonder exactly who jpeace plans to raise hell with when he comes back. Which demographic, in his eyes, is most responsible for his furlough?

Anyway, I hope everyone comes out of this okay. Not a good time for anyone.

 

[172driver]

I totally agree with jpeace and pilot 772. I see far less participation than I expected and it's very disappointing.

The major disappointment to me is that NJASAP didn't even try to convince anyone to help out. The package was presented as "do what's good for you" and not "please do whatever you can to help your junior brothers." I know not everybody can help, but I think a lot of people got the "do what's best for you" message and decided to do just that. I think this pilot group would have sacrificed a lot more if they were asked to do so by their leadership.

 

[rigger]

Gotta say I am a bit surprised at the way this thread went. After reading it all, it has reinforced the old joke pilots tell about how you could give a pilot something for free and he would still complain about something to do with the gift!

NetJets folks wether you believe it or not you have been given a huge gift.... I fully realize you have earned it and have paid the dues required to get to this point your Union has done a great job and your MEC is top notch. But come on, the flying industry is in turmoil, more pilot's are on the street right now then were after 911, the frac industry is not the same business model as it was 12 months ago, Aircraft makers are laying off in the thousands, the used A/C market has never been this saturated with aircraft and your complaining that some of your brothers and sisters are being forced to make a choice (actually many options to make a choice) to stay with the company or go for a long while, or go for a little while, or leave entirely and take a hunk of money......Youll get insurance, recall rights, etc etc. WHAT A GREAT EARNED GIFT. It was going to happen anyway based on the market and the Company and Union got together and made lemonade..... too sour for some too sweet for others, just right for others......but it was still made for you all.

I am a furloughed Shares guy there are 38 of us on the street 10 more will go the end of June. 24 went in December not one of us had a choice, the company originally offered a buy out....1 month pay for every year or service (max 8 years) Something, but not enough to really make a huge differance in your life. We had 6 takers, this was a god send for 6 guys on the bottom. The second time around no offer for a LOA, or a buyout, or reduced pay for all or?????? anything else it was just cut those 48! Infact since this was announced 3 senior pilots have left the company were the furloughs reduced by 3???? not that anyone can determine but we can't get an answer.....

At least you have some lemonade....stop making your own coolaid and start drinking some of your hard won lemonade!!! This is what you all worked so hard to get, sure some of the Old senior guys should get the heck out, but so too should some of the snot nosed young guys. Sure some folks will drive the new boat and some folks will not pay their bills all because of this......it's the way it is!!!

I only wish we 48 guys had the choice of what kind of lemonade we could drink!! Maybe our guys will get the cards sent in now???? Maybe not....but it is the way it is....IT"S AVIATION STUPID!!!!!

O ya As usual Netjets wife still gets it, thanks for all the support and thanks to your hubby for working so hard for the industry!,

 

[pilot772]

realityman check your pm's

 

[gunfyter]

H If the level of participation goes up dramatically in the last week and furloughs are averted you will see perhaps the strongest most unified union possible heading into contract negotiations in 2015-2016. If the other end of the spectrum happens who knows.

Contract negotiations will be in 2011/2012, not 2015/16....

At which time the 18 day schedule will be History.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Contract negotiations will be in 2011/2012, not 2015/16....

At which time the 18 day schedule will be History.

He's going to meet all three benchmarks for the three year extension. You don't think he'll extend it?

 

[jpeace02]

Fellas/ladies,

These posts have been so respectfull, except for mine of course, that I forgot I was on flightinfo.

I had a few drinks last night and I'm stressed to say the least. I don't mean to offend anybody but I do stand by my questions as to why we still have 30% not doing anything, meaning opting in.

NetJets is one helluva a place to work and I hope to retire here but if I end up getting furloughed or forced into a LTLOA it will probably just turn into 'one of those airlines I use to work for.'

It's an emotional issue and we should treat it like a business decesion, my bad.

Sincerely,

jpeace

 

[-FlyAuburn-]

Fellas/ladies,

These posts have been so respectfull, except for mine of course, that I forgot I was on flightinfo.

I had a few drinks last night and I'm stressed to say the least. I don't mean to offend anybody but I do stand by my questions as to why we still have 30% not doing anything, meaning opting in.

NetJets is one helluva a place to work and I hope to retire here but if I end up getting furloughed or forced into a LTLOA it will probably just turn into 'one of those airlines I use to work for.'

It's an emotional issue and we should treat it like a business decesion, my bad.

Sincerely,

jpeace

No problem Jpeace. I'm 158 from the bottom and I feel your pain. I too have heard and seen the things you speak of on the road... so maybe it was bad taste to air the dirty laundry on FI, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

Realityman is right that it is impossible to know where the greatest concentration of "opt-outers" is on the list, in the end it doesn't really matter. 900 of us have decided we can't or won't help for whatever reason. That is very dissapointing.

I will say though that 100% of the indviduals that have personally told me that they are opting out are very senior pilots with numbers of 1500 and above.. and I have asked quite a few. The reason is always the same; that they were here when they made nothing and they are not ok with losing the payout they get from their unused sick/PTO days or whatever. Some of them would be losing a fat lump sum and are unwilling to give it up. That's just my experience and I HOPE that it is an isolated one but from I hear from you and others it isn't so much.

Good luck to everybody and thanks to all that have done at least something to help out!

 

[gunfyter]

He's going to meet all three benchmarks for the three year extension. You don't think he'll extend it?

No I do not think he will ... I think there are certain provisions he would like changed. Unless the economy start booming and the business as well before then....

I will not post what I think those provisions are .... But I think he will want some changes before 2015 .. and 2012 is a good time to get them.

 

[netjetwife]

Here is the problem, there are people on the union board and the road saying that they don't want to do anything because "nothing is in it for them" that is the attitude I believe Jpeace is referring to. Whether your impression is just general, or comes from statements you've actually heard, I don't disagree that there are probably some in the pilotgroup with that attitude. I'll take the question. The entire pilotgroup stands to benefit by helping to keep NJA financially stable, not just the most junior pilots. Considering how carefully RTS protects and promotes the image of NetJets, I can't see him going on national TV admitting that NJA and the Union were working to avoid furloughs unless things were really grim. If we want to keep, or improve, the contract in 2012, we can't refuse to help NJA now. If the pilots stand by and watch them lose millions when they have the ability to change the outcome just by pulling together as a team and participating in the preventive measures, the good will and respect we have earned as a group will be destroyed. If we were in their place you know we'd feel the same way. Helping in the tough time is the best way to assure a reward when profits go back up. I wouldn't advise that for most frac pilots, but NJA management has been doing the right thing by the pilots since 2005. Those who opt out run the risk of returning to the adversarial relationship we had before that. The pilots insisted, rightfully so, on being treated like professionals. Well at times like this professionals help to protect the business and invest in their career. The NJ pilots are no longer the underpaid workers who can just cash the sub-par paycheck and justifiably tell management to deal with their own problems. If the level of participation goes up dramatically in the last week and furloughs are averted you will see perhaps the strongest most unified union possible heading into contract negotiations in 2015-2016. If the other end of the spectrum happens who knows.

I totally agree with your prediction, but it doesn't stop there. We'd see one of the strongest labor-management relationships in aviation. Pilots in the frac industry already compare NJASAP to SWA; that position would be enhanced by working as full partners now. If the pilots opted in by a huge majority they'd be well positioned on the moral high ground going into negotiations. Opting out decreases the chance of the contract being extended. There's clearly a very direct tie between the two-- basic human nature. NJW

 

[netjetwife]

I totally agree with jpeace and pilot 772. I see far less participation than I expected and it's very disappointing.

Classic example of the half empty or half full question... It isn't over yet, but solid progress has already been made so I was encouraged. I think the ICOM showing precisely how participation was saving jobs is the info some needed before joining the effort.

The major disappointment to me is that NJASAP didn't even try to convince anyone to help out. They led by example when they approached the Company with their concerns about the economic downturn. If not for their input, the options (if offered) would have been less pilot-friendly-- is my educated guess. The package was presented as "do what's good for you" and not "please do whatever you can to help your junior brothers." On the Preventive Measures homepage it says (paraphrased) that the main theme is pilots helping pilots and it talks about what a great opportunity it is to help reduce furloughs. I know not everybody can help, but I think a lot of people got the "do what's best for you" message and decided to do just that. I think this pilot group would have sacrificed a lot more if they were asked to do so by their leadership. I do know it's easier said than done, (example below) but please let the JPMC run its course before talking about the results in the past tense.

The NJ pilotgroup has a reputation of pulling together so giving them a chance to do so first seems appropriate. That said, it isn't over yet and we don't know what further communications NJASAP and the Company have planned, nor do we know what response RTS will get after he reveals some of the cost-savings measures and efficiency improvements management has been working on.

I recall as an AF wife, waiting to learn what our next assignment would be, how hard it is not to become impatient when you're stuck in limbo for months. AF folks are told not to count on an assignment until the orders come thru, but those down coats were on sale and it looked like we were going to Germany. I outfitted the whole family in winter gear and we got sent to Egypt...

 

[netjetwife]

... NetJets folks wether you believe it or not you have been given a huge gift.... I fully realize you have earned it and have paid the dues required to get to this point your Union has done a great job and your MEC is top notch. Thanks for sharing your opinion. I know that NJASAP values the regard of their industry peers. But come on, the flying industry is in turmoil, more pilot's are on the street right now then were after 911, the frac industry is not the same business model as it was 12 months ago, Aircraft makers are laying off in the thousands, the used A/C market has never been this saturated with aircraft Good summary, Rigger. and your complaining that some of your brothers and sisters are being forced to make a choice (actually many options to make a choice) to stay with the company or go for a long while, or go for a little while, or leave entirely and take a hunk of money......Youll get insurance, recall rights, etc etc. WHAT A GREAT EARNED GIFT. It was going to happen anyway based on the market and the Company and Union got together and made lemonade..... too sour for some too sweet for others, just right for others......but it was still made for you all. An appropriate reminder.

I am a furloughed Shares guy there are 38 of us on the street 10 more will go the end of June. Sorry to hear it, guys.. . 24 went in December not one of us had a choice, the company originally offered a buy out....1 month pay for every year or service (max 8 years) Something, but not enough to really make a huge differance in your life. We had 6 takers, this was a god send for 6 guys on the bottom. The second time around no offer for a LOA, or a buyout, or reduced pay for all or?????? anything else it was just cut those 48! How awful! Infact since this was announced 3 senior pilots have left the company were the furloughs reduced by 3???? NJA counts every early-out as 1 job saved and they're giving a good $eparation package. So CS could surely count it, too. not that anyone can determine but we can't get an answer.....So probably not, huh?! How frustrating and unfair! Info is free; why not share it???

At least you have some lemonade....stop making your own coolaid and start drinking some of your hard won lemonade!!! This is what you all worked so hard to get, ... I only wish we 48 guys had the choice of what kind of lemonade we could drink!! Maybe our guys will get the cards sent in now???? Hopefully so. It's becoming painfully clear that being organized is just as important in the tough times--possibly more, going by the Shares situation.

O ya As usual Netjets wife still gets it, thanks for all the support and thanks to your hubby for working so hard for the industry!,

I read your post to him; we both appreciate it... The CS pilots know I've always worried about you guys not having a written contract with Shares. It's more than just the money, as you're learning the hard way. Having a voice at the table is critical! I've always hated the differences in how frac pilots get treated, depending on the company you fly for. I'm a big proponent for industry standards because the job is so similar across the fracs. It burns me up that many managers hoard information. It's a little to no cost commodity that pays huge dividends in motivation and morale, so I think it's withheld mainly for the intimidation factor. When that happens it should be a red flag, telling the pilots exactly how they rate with management.

Best Wishes to the CS pilotgroup in these trying times! Good Luck to those who've been furloughed. My thoughts are with you and your families, NJW

 

[RCR5]

I read your post to him; we both appreciate it... The CS pilots know I've always worried about you guys not having a written contract with Shares. It's more than just the money, as you're learning the hard way. Having a voice at the table is critical! I've always hated the differences in how frac pilots get treated, depending on the company you fly for. I'm a big proponent for industry standards because the job is so similar across the fracs. It burns me up that many managers hoard information. It's a little to no cost commodity that pays huge dividends in motivation and morale, so I think it's withheld mainly for the intimidation factor. When that happens it should be a red flag, telling the pilots exactly how they rate with management.

Best Wishes to the CS pilotgroup in these trying times! Good Luck to those who've been furloughed. My thoughts are with you and your families, NJW

I was one of the guys furloughed at CS and am going to call Bull******************** on this post!!!!! Union or not, this economy is affecting everyone. Are those boots to tight for you netjetwife? They seem to be cutting the blood off to your brain.

Sell your pro union 'help' to someone else. Let me know how your union is helping Berkshire Hathaway and NetJets after the first week of July. You KNOW what I am talking about.

You have BH backing you. That is all that is saving Netjets from furloughing HUGE (by other fractional carriers standards) numbers of pilots....period. Get an education and some integrity here if you REALLY want to help pilots.

As just a line pilot with an EDUCATION, I can see that CS has done the best they can considering the current economic situation.

You are full of ********************.

 

[BeeDubya]

You have BH backing you. That is all that is saving Netjets from furloughing HUGE (by other fractional carriers standards) numbers of pilots....period.

I do not believe this statement can be supported by the facts. While I have no doubt that BH's support is helping NJ weather the economic storm, I do not think it is BH preventing furloughs, in that I do not believe they exert that much direct control over the operation. The Voluntary Measures package (JPMC) was worked out between NJ and NJASAP leadership. Had BH been directly involved, they may have taken a different tact.

 

[fischman]

I was one of the guys furloughed at CS and am going to call Bull******************** on this post!!!!! Union or not, this economy is affecting everyone. Are those boots to tight for you netjetwife? They seem to be cutting the blood off to your brain.

Sell your pro union 'help' to someone else. Let me know how your union is helping Berkshire Hathaway and NetJets after the first week of July. You KNOW what I am talking about.

You have BH backing you. That is all that is saving Netjets from furloughing HUGE (by other fractional carriers standards) numbers of pilots....period. Get an education and some integrity here if you REALLY want to help pilots.

As just a line pilot with an EDUCATION, I can see that CS has done the best they can considering the current economic situation.

You are full of ********************.

I'm just a pilot (albeit an awesome one), but I don't think BH has a single thing to do with our staffing levels. It is largly due to NJASAP (directly or indirectly) that there are currently no furloughs at NetJets. Our contract makes it exceedingly difficult to perform sell offs for NetJets without recalling pilots (scope), and NJASAP has been PROACTIVE in NetJets current demand for staffing literally saving HUNDREDS of jobs.

NetJets management has been heavily marketing our stability as well. If you go to www.netjets.com you will see "STABILITY" scroll be in large letters.

What you have seen at CS is an easy knee jerk reaction to the poor economy. NetJets (due to NJASAP) has been forced to actually THINK about the course of action that would be best for the company's future and our families.

 

[rigger]

I'm just a pilot (albeit an awesome one), but I don't think BH has a single thing to do with our staffing levels. It is largly due to NJASAP (directly or indirectly) that there are currently no furloughs at NetJets. Our contract makes it exceedingly difficult to perform sell offs for NetJets without recalling pilots (scope), and NJASAP has been PROACTIVE in NetJets current demand for staffing literally saving HUNDREDS of jobs.

NetJets management has been heavily marketing our stability as well. If you go to www.netjets.com you will see "STABILITY" scroll be in large letters.

What you have seen at CS is an easy knee jerk reaction to the poor economy. NetJets (due to NJASAP) has been forced to actually THINK about the course of action that would be best for the company's future and our families.

Fish

You hit the nail fully on the head! Textron was/is spewing money forth and they came down knee jerk style on the companies under them. This all happened quite quickly in ICT at Cessna one day, all the pres of the companies got together and the next day more furloughs were announced! in most of the Texton companies, This was done to make the balance sheets look good...Period! If Shares had the union in place there is no doubt the system would have been better for the eventual furloughs but it wasent!

BH is a much better business person then this and did waht he always does, he put quality people in charge of each division and then he stands backs and let's them run the place.....because of this most (if not all) his managers are top notch and actually not Knee jerk kinda folks...I think the word is stategic.... Too bad shares runs their business more knee jerk day to day then Strategic. But I like you am just a pilot (an awsome one) but just a pilot! What do I know!!!!!

 

[fischman]

Fish

You hit the nail fully on the head! Textron was/is spewing money forth and they came down knee jerk style on the companies under them. This all happened quite quickly in ICT at Cessna one day, all the pres of the companies got together and the next day more furloughs were announced! in most of the Texton companies, This was done to make the balance sheets look good...Period! If Shares had the union in place there is no doubt the system would have been better for the eventual furloughs but it wasent!

BH is a much better business person then this and did waht he always does, he put quality people in charge of each division and then he stands backs and let's them run the place.....because of this most (if not all) his managers are top notch and actually not Knee jerk kinda folks...I think the word is stategic.... Too bad shares runs their business more knee jerk day to day then Strategic. But I like you am just a pilot (an awsome one) but just a pilot! What do I know!!!!!

You got me man, but if you figure it out, be sure to let the rest of us know!!!

Cheers.

 

[Hawker dude]

I was one of the guys furloughed at CS and am going to call Bull******************** on this post!!!!! Union or not, this economy is affecting everyone. Are those boots to tight for you netjetwife? They seem to be cutting the blood off to your brain.

Sell your pro union 'help' to someone else. Let me know how your union is helping Berkshire Hathaway and NetJets after the first week of July. You KNOW what I am talking about.

You have BH backing you. That is all that is saving Netjets from furloughing HUGE (by other fractional carriers standards) numbers of pilots....period. Get an education and some integrity here if you REALLY want to help pilots.

As just a line pilot with an EDUCATION, I can see that CS has done the best they can considering the current economic situation.

You are full of ********************.

dude,

Netjets = BH

Citation = Textron

did you figure it out yet? How's that EDJUMACATION workin' for ya?