Video from CNBC-Santulli CEO NetJets

[amaineiac]

Don't think it will get close to 10%, more like 6 or 7%. The number I heard that have turned in the early out paper work at this point isn't good. But there will probably be a rush at the end of the time period or one can hope.

That's funny because I heard just the opposite. I guess we'll just have to wait and see come mid June.

 

[gutshotdraw]

So far about 250 pilots have done the poll on the union web site. 7% early out. 33% reduced schedule. 4% 1 year LOA. 4% 3 year LOA. 66% opt in. The problem is who knows if this is a real representative account of the over all pilot population at NJA. There really isn't that high a percentage of pilots who regularly go on that message board so it is hard to say that those percentages will hold true for the entire group. If they do hold true that will be around 200 pilots at NJA getting the early out and a hopefully enough overall participation to avoid furloughs. At least the company will let us know how many actually do the early out and will most likely give a strong suggestion as to how many more would be wise to take the 3 year LOA or face possible furlough before that LOA bid must be in.

We have specifically asked that we be told this information when the bid period closes and were refused.......

The numbers we have are based on personal conversations and a list compiled by a G-IV pilot. We won't know for sure until people's names start disappearing from the schedule.

 

[av8trinabarrel]

Ahhhhh NJWife! For the first time, I have to call bad form on you! Your closing statements in your post are completely out of line.

Our own union leadership and officials have made it a point NOT to campaign to push the JPM's on anyone. And they have repeated over and over and over ad nauseum that they would like it if no one else did either.

Many threads on our own message boards have been headed off by Brian Ward when it appeared that one individual or another was asking folks to take advantage of these measures, or someone would express "disappointment" that not everyone was doing his/her part.

Now here you are on a public message board doing exactly what they've asked us not to do.

While I understand your passion towards this issue, I think it would be best to respect the wishes of our union officers. Perhaps your post would have been better served by concluding with "Please take the time to read and understand the Joint Preventative Measures, and make an informed decision on what you can or can't do."

Asking people directly to take advantage of the JPM's is contrary to what the union has advised us about doing.

I completely understand emotions are high right now among the junior folks(me being one of them). Do I get angry when I'm flying with a captain who is 65 and just took out a 600G mortgage with ZERO in savings and then has the nerve to ask my input on a boat after we just got done talking about me losing my ability to feed my family because of a furlough. HELL Yes I get mad! Who am I to say what he does with his schedule or his money, but the complete lack of humility coming from some people(nobody so far in this discussion) is what gets the junior rank and file all pissed off. We all know that this kind of guy is in the minority, but emotions get the best of all of us.

Most of the people I fly with and talk to, are all very understanding of the junior man's plight. I hold no ill will against anyone that cannot help with the cause, but don't spit in my face by asking what kind of ski boat you should bye when you are flat broke at 65 years old!!!:smash:

 

[netjetwife]

Ahhhhh NJWife! For the first time, I have to call bad form on you! Your closing statements in your post are completely out of line. And that I made them, nonetheless, considering the situation mentioned below, should tell you how strongly I believe it needs to be said. Perhaps our definition of bad form differs? To me it is standing by refusing to help (or use the bully pulpit) while potentially hundreds of NJ families may lose their income.

Our own union leadership and officials have made it a point NOT to campaign to push the JPM's on anyone. This could turn out to be a big mistake if their silence fails to convey the urgent need for participation. And they have repeated over and over and over ad nauseum that they would like it if no one else did either. I think that's just a bit of exaggeration....

Many threads on our own message boards have been headed off by Brian Ward when it appeared that one individual or another was asking folks to take advantage of these measures, or someone would express "disappointment" that not everyone was doing his/her part. I guess leadership is concerned that the pilotgroup will lose its unity if it breaks down into seniority blocks. Ironically, I think that is more likely to occur if too many pilots opt out and lots of junior pilots get furloughed. If that were to happen, how motivated will the junior pilots be on future issues to stand with senior pilots who refused them help at a critical time?

Now here you are on a public message board doing exactly what they've asked us not to do. And there I was at home (on the phone) telling my husband of my concerns. We're all involved and we're all entitled to an opinion. FI is a good forum for discussing the issues. Personally, I think there should be just as much discussion about the JPMC as there was about the past contract votes.

While I understand your passion towards this issue, I think it would be best to respect the wishes of our union officers. They may want a calm, quiet NJ message board, but they haven't asked us not to debate the issue here. My husband knows where I stand and he didn't ask me to stop posting here. Perhaps your post would have been better served by concluding with "Please take the time to read and understand the Joint Preventative Measures, and make an informed decision on what you can or can't do." I think there are plenty of people sticking to that safe message and we can assume by now that most have read the package. I believe it's time to start the moral debate, to ask -- what is the right thing to do. I think NJA/I families will be better served by an open discussion that includes words like: selfish, personal responsibility, and unity.

Asking people directly to take advantage of the JPM's is contrary to what the union has advised us about doing.

Not exactly. They've stressed the need for a calm, respectful discussion (which doesn't always happen on message boards) and they are taking seriously their obligation to represent the entire Membership. It seems that their legal responsibility to do so dictates an officially neutral position; understandably safer for them. As leaders of NJASAP they also have to balance competing interests: the need to save jobs and the goal of making sure that management has first done all they can to become more efficient and stop wasting money. It's a tricky balancing act to be sure. If the pilots pick up all of the slack for management, they won't be forced to make much-needed improvements. On the other hand, (and this is my concern) if they wait too long and fail to convey an adequate sense of urgency then we could see hundreds of pilots get furloughed.

 

[Dooker]

To a certain extent, RJS is fulla crap. So's anyone who thinks what we do is any more indespensible than, say, staying at the Four Season versus a Hilton, or taking a sedan versus a good ol' taxi.

Our business is a luxury. Period. And as much as I hate to admit it, since my very livelihood is tied up in it, the fractional industry is fairly emblematic of just how skewed things get after about twenty years of tax policy that favor the wealthy and corporations at the expense of the middle class, combined with deregulation of the financial services industry to the point of folly.

These people we fly around have been the beneficiaries of all of this largesse while we (meaning, middle-class chumps like us) have been asked to buy into a "trickle down" theory that really hasn't trickled down much at all.

Uncle Warren said it best when he appeared before the Senate to testify about the need to raise taxes on the wealthy a couple years ago.

"For the past twenty years, the rich have been on a space ship, while the middle class has been on a treadmill."

Or words to that effect.

Like I say, it's a little painful for me to say this, since I make my living flying these spoiled wealthy ********************s around for a living, but let's face it: haven't we all rolled our eyes more than once when we see what goes on back there? At the supreme arrogance of wealth? At the disgusting excess of privilege?

At the kid who will never know the joy of taking his shoes off to clear security? Or have to worry about getting into a decent school, because he was in the day he was born?

At the mom who still feels the need to travel with a nanny, even though she's only got one kid?

At the Bentleys and Maybachs that meet us planeside that cost much, much more than the homes we live in?

Am I the only one out there with these mixed thoughts? Who wonders how in the world so few people in this country managed to get their hands on so much of its wealth, and so quickly? Who wonders if the rise of the very industry in which he works might signal something more ominous for the nation as a whole?

I never planned on driving corporate jets--always thought I'd wind up an airline pilot, hauling around folks a lot closer to my own tax bracket. To my mind, there is still something honorable in that. But this turned out ot be the path of least resistance, so here I am, whoring myself out for the top one percent.

If it all went away tomorrow, I'd be bummed, because then I'd have to find a real job. But I can't say I'd be devastated.

 

[netjetwife]

We have specifically asked that we be told this information when the bid period closes and were refused........

It always angers and amazes me that they do that to you guys! Sharing information costs them nothing but means a lot to you. It's that utter lack of consideration and respect on management's part (unfortunately common in the industry) that makes Unions necessary.

 

[glasspilot]

It take a little nerve to get on here and say, "quit your dream so I can have mine."

 

[Captainzero1]

To a certain extent, RJS is fulla crap. So's anyone who thinks what we do is any more indespensible than, say, staying at the Four Season versus a Hilton, or taking a sedan versus a good ol' taxi.

Our business is a luxury. Period. And as much as I hate to admit it, since my very livelihood is tied up in it, the fractional industry is fairly emblematic of just how skewed things get after about twenty years of tax policy that favor the wealthy and corporations at the expense of the middle class, combined with deregulation of the financial services industry to the point of folly.

These people we fly around have been the beneficiaries of all of this largesse while we (meaning, middle-class chumps like us) have been asked to buy into a "trickle down" theory that really hasn't trickled down much at all.

Uncle Warren said it best when he appeared before the Senate to testify about the need to raise taxes on the wealthy a couple years ago.

"For the past twenty years, the rich have been on a space ship, while the middle class has been on a treadmill."

Or words to that effect.

Like I say, it's a little painful for me to say this, since I make my living flying these spoiled wealthy ********************s around for a living, but let's face it: haven't we all rolled our eyes more than once when we see what goes on back there? At the supreme arrogance of wealth? At the disgusting excess of privilege?

At the kid who will never know the joy of taking his shoes off to clear security? Or have to worry about getting into a decent school, because he was in the day he was born?

At the mom who still feels the need to travel with a nanny, even though she's only got one kid?

At the Bentleys and Maybachs that meet us planeside that cost much, much more than the homes we live in?

Am I the only one out there with these mixed thoughts? Who wonders how in the world so few people in this country managed to get their hands on so much of its wealth, and so quickly? Who wonders if the rise of the very industry in which he works might signal something more ominous for the nation as a whole?

I never planned on driving corporate jets--always thought I'd wind up an airline pilot, hauling around folks a lot closer to my own tax bracket. To my mind, there is still something honorable in that. But this turned out ot be the path of least resistance, so here I am, whoring myself out for the top one percent.

If it all went away tomorrow, I'd be bummed, because then I'd have to find a real job. But I can't say I'd be devastated.

Amen to the that brother.

 

[netjetwife]

Dooker, your post is certainly food for thought and I'll be thinking about it later, I know. One quick thought.... we're certainly seeing how wide-spread the impact of private aviation is. Consider that we've seen lots of middle class Americans lose factory jobs with the recent cancellations for airplanes. And then there's all the jobs that are associated with the business trips frac customers make.... hotel staff needed for all the pilots out on the road...at the resorts the wealthy fly to, places they shop, etc... Interesting post to come back to, but right now I want to explain the reasoning behind my controversial post regarding the furlough mitigation package at NJ.

 

[RNObased]

It take a little nerve to get on here and say, "quit your dream so I can have mine."

Well said.

 

[netjetwife]

Ignore NJW when you don't feel like a dose of Kool-Aid that is what a lot of us do.

Now, you can get all sorts of pissed off if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that people are OPTing out. A lot of them.

Talk about mixed messages. You dismiss my post (with unnecessary rudeness...) and then turn around and validate the very concern which motivated it. For clarification, RNO, could you explain exactly what you see as Kool-aid. Is it my wish to avoid furloughs, which some may view as a normal part of the economic cycle? Or is it my support for the labor-management partnership-- that some NJ pilots still aren't convinced will work. BTW, you shouldn't equate optimism and a willingness to try a different approach with naiveté and blind faith. I follow things as closely as you do, but I'm a firm believer in the power of positive reinforcement and I understand that it can take a long time to cure bad habits and completely change a corporate culture.

 

[MasterOfYaw]

80% of the flights are more for personal reasons and 30% for business is the true breakdown. Go hang out in PBI.MVY.ACK,ASE,TEX, etc. and tell me otherwise.

90% of Americans never work. Go hank out at Disney Land, Fenway Park, Sea World, etc and tell me otherwise.

 

[RNObased]

Talk about mixed messages. You dismiss my post (with unnecessary rudeness...) and then turn around and validate the very concern which motivated it. For clarification, RNO, could you explain exactly what you see as Kool-aid. Is it my wish to avoid furloughs, which some may view as a normal part of the economic cycle? Or is it my support for the labor-management partnership-- that some NJ pilots still aren't convinced will work. BTW, you shouldn't equate optimism and a willingness to try a different approach with naiveté and blind faith. I follow things as closely as you do, but I'm a firm believer in the power of positive reinforcement and I understand that it can take a long time to cure bad habits and completely change a corporate culture.

I don't think I validated anything you said. Maybe Kool-Aid was the wrong word, cheerleading is closer.

I was making a point to captain zero that he can get mad all he wants, it isn't going to change what people are doing or have done with regards to the LOA.

 

[netjetwife]

Awwww come on realityman, give us a break, we all know that netjets wife means well with what she has said. I don't have any problem with any of it. I'm at the bottom of the seniority list and I highly encourage everyone to take part in the voluntary measures. In fact, I'll take it one step further, who in their right mind would OPT OUT??? And yes, I'm dead f-ing serious! I'm not asking anyone to take a reduced sched, nor longer vacations, extra unpaid days off...........but my gosh, to OPT OUT??? Now that pisses me off.

For those who aren't acquainted w/the Preventive Measures, '125 is referring to the process of turning pay for OT, holidays, etc into time off. Considering that OT is lower when flying is down and one's budget shouldn't rely on getting holiday pay, extended days, etc, then the actual support for the cause is something well within the ability of every pilot on the VSL. Opting in is a good example of lots of people individually giving a little that cumulatively adds up to a significant amount. It's also a great way to show moral support for fellow NJ families that may lose out tremendously if their peers refuse to play even this small supporting role. When you look at the situation this way, you can easily see why junior pilots (and those who support them) would become frustrated at the notion of NJ pilots refusing to help prevent furloughs.

Considering that many workers all across our country (including the frac industry) have had to take reduced hours/pay to keep their employers afloat, it is not unreasonable to think that NJA could truly use the financial help these days. Thus, it is in every NJ employee's best interest to do all they can to assure that NJA/I remains a secure place of employment. I'm not overlooking the fact that some in management have a (deserved) reputation for wasting money and acting like there's no need to watch the bottom line. Indeed, it's that attitude that places the Company at risk. The day of reckoning is fast approaching and I don't think that our junior NJ families should have to pay the price for the mistakes others made. I hate the waste as much as the next person, but if NJ pilots/families refuse to help out until every frivolous process in management has been corrected, then we're running a big risk of putting lots of innocent people in financial jeopardy. I think that now is the time to save jobs. After that important goal is met, NJASAP can, and should, address the management practices that have exacerbated a bad economic situation.

On the NJ message board, pilots regularly solicit donations for the charitable causes they support and for fellow pilots who are dealing w/emotionally and financially draining situations. How then can it possibly be unacceptable for others with a concern every bit as legitimate to ask for the same consideration. How can the wish to support a worthwhile cause or an individual family, out-weigh the importance of keeping NJA and hundreds of NJ families financially secure.... To me, it's totally unacceptable not to likewise make direct appeals on behalf of those facing the risk of losing their job. I'm every bit as serious as '125. NJW

 

[RNObased]

There is nothing to do with OT in that LOA. How you going to turn OT into days off??

 

[realityman]

F then the actual support for the cause is something well within the ability of every pilot on the VSL.

NJW,

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Are you absolutely SURE about this statement? Have you personally gone over the personal finances of each and every pilot here? If not, then I'd say this is a pretty brazen statement to make, on ANY message board.

I can also think of a dozen reasons off the top of my head why a person may not be able to take advantage of ANY of the preventative measures. Yes, I fully understand the catastrophic consequences to the pilots and their families who may be furloughed (been there twice myself, and it ain't a picnic!), but it's well within the realm of possibility that someone may already be struggling, and just can't pitch in right now. After all, it's really only been a relatively short time that we've been making decent wages.

Now the high and mighty come out and start pressuring everyone to do something to help out. Now if the people that can't help out, for whatever reason, don't help out, you're setting them up for serious guilt, which ultimately turns to resentment. Seen it too many times to deny that's exactly what will happen. Sure, they may feel a little guilty without you pressuring them, but probably a lot more so with it. So this too may come back to bite us later when we may need the unity again.

On the other hand, maybe this pressure will cause people who really can't afford to take advantage of these measures to do so. Well great. It's for a good cause, right? Except if they really couldn't afford to do it, it may be causing a great deal of hardship for them and their families. More resentment and anger. Less unity later.

Just let people read the package and decide for themselves. I stick by my assertion that it's not a good idea to have folks whispering in their ear (metaphorically) to do it, do it, DO IT!!

 

[netjetwife]

RNO, I was referring to the provision of putting days into a pilot's Paid Leave Bank in lieu of money for any extended days or after-midnights. Technically, those are different from regular OT, I know, but I have a tendency to lump them all together. Sorry for the confusion. Thanks for keeping me accurate.

In the interest of helping my fellow board members understand my viewpoint on the JPMC, I remind them that my family has been through a furlough before so it is easy for me to put myself in the junior NJ families' shoes. I know mine isn't the only family out there with one parent staying home full time w/the children so it's easy for me to identify with the worry that our junior families must be feeling. On top of that, for months now my family has made the goal of preventing furloughs a top priority, and while my husband has never lost sight of the fact that the overall situation for NJASAP involves more than one issue, it has been easier for me and the kids to accept his frequent absences and constant Union work at home, with the consolation that it will help to save jobs.

When I think of the significant time and effort expended by all those involved w/the JPMC, not to mention the hundreds of jobs at stake, I can't help but think that the right thing for NJA/I families to do is remain opted-in and make a unified, good faith effort to follow the path laid out by the Company and Union that support all of us.

 

[BeeDubya]

There is nothing to do with OT in that LOA. How you going to turn OT into days off??

Hourly OT is not the issue. It's other forms of compensation above base pay -- maybe, generally, OT.

Hope this helps.

 

[RNObased]

Hourly OT is not the issue. It's other forms of compensation above base pay -- maybe, generally, OT.

Hope this helps.

Well I understand it perfectly because I read the LOA, front to back. If you want to call holidays and after midnights; OT fine call it that, I don't.

 

[netjetwife]

NJW,

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Are you absolutely SURE about this statement? I'm sure that no one should rely on "extra" income they can't be SURE of receiving when building their budget. The opt-in provision doesn't change the base pay which is all that they can realistically count on. .... I can also think of a dozen reasons off the top of my head why a person may not be able to take advantage of ANY of the preventative measures. Yes, I fully understand the catastrophic consequences to the pilots and their families who may be furloughed (been there twice myself, and it ain't a picnic!), but it's well within the realm of possibility that someone may already be struggling, and just can't pitch in right now. ... During the contract battle, this same argument was made (in defense of those doing extended days) by some of the junior pilots (like my husband) who were paid far less than NJA FOs make now. He/we were made to understand that we had to do our part despite the financial hardship giving up that extra money caused for us. Many underpaid pilots/families managed then (on less) so I think today's better paid pilotgroup can, too. Once again, it's about doing what is best for the group, as a whole, instead of focusing solely on individuals.

Now the high and mighty (I would not characterize them that way. Did you also say that about those who tried to get pilots to stop extending prior to the 2005 CBA? Please be fair.) come out and start pressuring everyone to do something to help out. Like they did before. Then, and now, I see it as using persuasion (not pressure) and having a debate about what is the right thing for the NJ pilots/families to do. Now if the people that can't help out, for whatever reason, don't help out, you're setting them up for serious guilt, which ultimately turns to resentment. Seen it too many times to deny that's exactly what will happen. This could well be true for the most selfish members of the group, but it's unrealistic to expect 100% participation in a pilotgroup this size anyway. As we saw before, those who truly wish to help out but just can't afford to, will explain their reasons while still offering moral support of the plan. Sure, they may feel a little guilty without you pressuring them, but probably a lot more so with it. So this too may come back to bite us later when we may need the unity again. If history repeats itself, there will be a debate (mostly respectful) over the issue just as there was over the POSTA, the 2005 TA, and the 2007 IBB. On all of those, I stood with the majority and watched the pilotgroup become stronger for having done the right thing each time. I think a huge part of the NJ pilots' success as a Union has come from taking to heart the plight of those most junior on the list. Changing that formula now would cause far more loss to unity than having the internal discussion which should always precede an important decision.

On the other hand, maybe this pressure will cause people who really can't afford to take advantage of these measures to do so. Well great. Correction: I made a pitch for ONE measure--participating in the Paid Leave Bank. It's for a good cause, right? Absolutely! This isn't just about avoiding furloughs, as commendable as that is. NJA's financial strength, job security and protecting the brand name is in everyone's best interest. Except if they really couldn't afford to do it, it may be causing a great deal of hardship for them and their families. Their regular paycheck will not be affected and it is easy to opt in and out as circumstances dictate. Thus, there would be no real hardship at all. More resentment and anger. Less unity later. I think those who are prone to that level of animosity may already value unity less than the majority and can only be relied upon to go along with the group when an issue happens to serve their own individual interests.

Just let people read the package and decide for themselves. I stick by my assertion that it's not a good idea to have folks whispering in their ear (metaphorically) to do it, do it, DO IT!!

Had that code of silence prevailed during the POSTA debate and later during IBB, none of the NJ pilots would have the contract they presently enjoy and there would be some faces missing from the current EBoard, I'm sure. Silence on the issues is a precursor to apathy and we all saw what that got the NJ pilots. In contrast, clear communication, respectful debate and high participation forms the bedrock of any successful enterprise or relationship. Sincerely, NJW