USAPA wins appeal!!!!!!

[get2flyin]

Still awaiting that answer to be fenced off any wide body flying for the length of your career?!?!?!?!

Simple answer: No. We're one big happy family now and that's a two sided coin for both sides. You think you can bully the West through the use of majority and maybe at some level that's true. That's Democracy in action and sometimes, it sucks. Congratulations, you'll get to bid into any West base position that your seniority can hold. Flip side: West pilots will get to bid on the Widebody flying (as crappy as it is) in addition to any East base. Good luck trying to fence anybody out or into anything. That will be a quick DFR.

And in regards to that: The 9th (*and judge Wake, for that matter) decision was in regards to DFR, not DOH. Nobody has given anybody the legal go-ahead to disregard the NIC award any more than the implementation of USAPA gave the company the right to blow off the work rules or the pay rates the work groups were contractually bound to. USAPA inherited the contracts the pilots currently fly under and they inherited the Nic list. Disregarding it would be the same as deciding East pilots can fly West airplanes tomorrow. You just don't have that kind of authority. But hey, what do I know....go ahead and try it.

 

[TWA Dude]

That's a funny spin "threatening to dump ALPA." Really, really funny. I believe we did more than threaten.

No spin. Before you did it it was only a threat. It didn't change our position.

But it wasn't any sort of extortion to get West concessions; it was pure, utter hatred for ALPA and all it had become.

You keep saying that but we keep not believing you. Neither did the jury and judges, BTW. Remember the Bradford letter?

... and as soon as the west stops WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME with this legal battle to cash in and rule the seniority list of an airline system they never could have dreamed of working for.....well, then we'll all be on our way to better conditions.

Now that's what we call spin. Since the East withdrew from joint negotiations in 2007 you've been the instigators of this mess and blaming the victim doesn't change that.

Either that, or like Crzy says, see you in court in another five years.

Whatever it takes.

Really TWA......slam dunk?.....9th to blow our heads off when we negotiate DOH??

Were you paying attention at all during the trial? Have you read the 9th ruling?

Up to now you guys, at least in your Internet incarnations, were more than just a bit rude and arrogant; now, y'all just seem pathetic.

If you think message boards reflect reality then your world is a very scary place indeed...

 

[PCL_128]

When we win the LOA93 pay grievance we won't care one way or the other.

And what if you lose the LOA 93 arbitration? Hate to break it to you, but that's the far more likely outcome. Will you then feel the need to finally stop being obstructionists and start working with the West pilots instead of against them? Every pilot in this country has a dog in this fight, because your shameful $124/hr top out pay rate on the 737/Airbus is holding all of us back.

 

[Crzipilot]

And what if you lose the LOA 93 arbitration? Hate to break it to you, but that's the far more likely outcome. Will you then feel the need to finally stop being obstructionists and start working with the West pilots instead of against them? Every pilot in this country has a dog in this fight, because your shameful $124/hr top out pay rate on the 737/Airbus is holding all of us back.

Hey PCL128....

You really have no reason to be in this thread, talking about our pay rate. You see, you assisted in the grass roots destruction of this career.

GULFSTREAM.....PFT to a Sacb owner. And don't give us, I'm reformed, admited my sins now a pro Alpa shrill.....

 

[Crzipilot]

Ahhh Yes, the wide body fence. Didn't say what we had currently. I said fenced of Wide Body flying for YOUR CAREER> I.E. Never to bid onto it. Ready to sign up for that?

 

[Crzipilot]

And a little excerpt from the decision. I will admit I haven't read the whole thing, but will as I get a chance here...

Although it is common for a merger to raise the issue of
integrating seniority lists, this case contains an added wrinkle.
The East Pilots, who were dissatisfied with the seniority integration
proposal ALPA arrived at through the union’s internal
arbitration, led a successful effort to decertify ALPA and
replace it with a new union, US Airline Pilots Association
(“USAPA”). Headed by an East Pilot, USAPA was constitutionally
committed to pursuing date-of-hire principles, in contrast
to ALPA, whose merger policy committed it to pursuing
the arbitrated seniority list."

Read this passage carefully. ALPA arbitration is NOT arbitration, is is POLICY!! A rose by any other name. Jacobs tried to infer the FAA in oral argument. That fell on deaf ears, because the FAA doesn't apply to RLA unions. The NMB company/union arbitrations are LEGALLY enforcable arbitrations.

This case is not about arbitrations, it's about a VOTE and the MAJORITY understood that. Bybee had no solution but voting stalemate, future litigation for years to come and quite possibly bankruptcy for the labor unions. The MAJORITY saw it for what it was.

 

[TWA Dude]

Read this passage carefully. ALPA arbitration is NOT arbitration, is is POLICY!!

I think what you're trying to say is that ours wasn't done under the auspices of the NMB like arbitrations with the company are. That is true. However, it was still an agreed-to event and both sides knew it was binding (despite the perjurious testimony of certain Easties). But all that's irrelevant to the DFR case. I know USAPA is hellbent on testing Seham's legal theories so in court is probably where we'll end up again.

I'm sure you realize by now that but for the ripeness issue the DFR violation of redoing the seniority list is obvious and egregious. Our lawyers will be ready and your lawyer will be Seham. Good luck.

 

[BeCareful!]

And what if you lose the LOA 93 arbitration? Hate to break it to you, but that's the far more likely outcome. Will you then feel the need to finally stop being obstructionists and start working with the West pilots instead of against them? Every pilot in this country has a dog in this fight, because your shameful $124/hr top out pay rate on the 737/Airbus is holding all of us back.

Well yeah, PCL, your history and that of your employer's are certainly shining examples of holding onto the highest standards and pursuing nothing but the best for all involved. Jesus.

Yes, our g'damn pay is shameful. GUESS WHO "NEGOTIATED" IT?!?!?!

That's right, your beloved ALPA. That is one of a plethora of reasons we voted ALPA off the farm (no matter how many times twa dude stands there, arms folded, shaking his head telling the world that it was only the Nic.) Furthermore, guess who's dirtbag wages our management was shooting for back in the ALPA consession stand days? Yeah, Tranny's, AWA's, etc. Or, I guess somewhere between there and GIA's....that's where we ended up under ALPA.....ALPA!!!! We are where we are because of dirtbags like you, and now you have the disingenious gall to point fingers.

You hate to break it to me?? That's funny, how many times have all the ALPA lovers said "hate to break it to you, but your gonna lose the appeal"?
The day you, as a premiere Internet Troll, break anything significant to me will be a cold day in PHX in August.

 

[Crzipilot]

I think what you're trying to say is that ours wasn't done under the auspices of the NMB like arbitrations with the company are. That is true. However, it was still an agreed-to event and both sides knew it was binding (despite the perjurious testimony of certain Easties). But all that's irrelevant to the DFR case. I know USAPA is hellbent on testing Seham's legal theories so in court is probably where we'll end up again.

I'm sure you realize by now that but for the ripeness issue the DFR violation of redoing the seniority list is obvious and egregious. Our lawyers will be ready and your lawyer will be Seham. Good luck.

Well as soon as I need to spend a good amount of time on the throne I will read through and use my layman's understanding and form my own opinion of what the decision means. Which that opinion will be that, an opinion and utterly meaningless, just as your is.

At first blush, it looks like, yup...thrown out due to ripeness. Yup, that arbitration was an internal ALPA policy, which obviously can be vacated as neither of us are represented by ALPA.....USAPA is free to negotiate a new CBA with the company, and section 22 can contain whatever they want in there. THEN when that CBA is voted in, then it will need to be looked at, at how section 22 comes out, and THEN it will be determined if you have a leg to stand on for DFR. Any of Wakes rulings injunctions etc etc are null and void. Why??? because the case is gone and done. The courts have said, until something actually happens, you can then file a DFR. Will the DFR be successful I guess that's your 2 million dollar bet you'll have to place. Again of course, after seeing how section 22 comes out looking like.

 

[T B O N E]

I hope all of US Air rolls inverted and pulls. Preferably from a low altitude. Some things are just too broke to fix

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Typical short sighted response scope out rj's.

Whatever it takes to keep the entertainment factor allive and well. Besides, what isn't true of what I said about your joke of an airline?

Of course your don't address the bulk of what i said....

Ok, here we go.....Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah, nic was a senile old man, the west cashing their lottery ticket. Oh and blah blah blah blah....

most importantly, that the west might just consider an end to WASTING EVERYONE'S TIME. Let's move on for the betterment of everyone, for the industry, for the profession.

.....says the guy who's group has no idea what final and binding arbitration means......

 

[Crzipilot]

I think what you're trying to say is that ours wasn't done under the auspices of the NMB like arbitrations with the company are. That is true. However, it was still an agreed-to event and both sides knew it was binding (despite the perjurious testimony of certain Easties). But all that's irrelevant to the DFR case. I know USAPA is hellbent on testing Seham's legal theories so in court is probably where we'll end up again.

I'm sure you realize by now that but for the ripeness issue the DFR violation of redoing the seniority list is obvious and egregious. Our lawyers will be ready and your lawyer will be Seham. Good luck.

Oh and a few other points to ponder. Not only was it not an arbitration within the NMB between the company and union, or a dispute between union and company on settling a contractural point. It was an arbitration between Two MEC's of ALPA. An internal ALPA process, which resulted in going to arbitration. That arbitration decision was never put into effect by having that arbitration award ensconced into Section 22 of a contract. It merely sat there.

So new Union comes along, are they tied to the ALPA process on how to negotiate Section 22??!?! If you say they are, then you will agree that the union must also be obligated to negotiate every portion of the contract based on ALPA negotiating principles and strategy.

Until Section 22 comes out, and is voted in place, will you be able to see if you have enough merit to file a DFR. True USAPA has a thin line to walk to ensure that the interests (NOT LOTTERY TICKET) of the west pilots are protected. BUT until you see the final version of Section 22, you won't know if your interests were followed or not. Simply having a lottery ticket from Phoenix, does not mean you can cash that in North Carolina......

My suggestion is, you drop some of your venom and get involved with the process, deal your your legally elected representatives, and ensure your voice is heard as to what your interests are in relation to finally integrating the seniority lists......

Again my opinion, and I'm sure you'll wipe your ass with it......but that's your right....

 

[Crzipilot]

.....says the guy who's group has no idea what final and binding arbitration means......

I guess the 9th circuit court of appeals doesn't understand it either.... But you being the all mighty and wise one, do.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Well yeah, PCL, your history and that of your employer's are certainly shining examples of holding onto the highest standards and pursuing nothing but the best for all involved. Jesus.

I love when some east azzwipe tries to lecture anyone about shining examples. It's irony that's just, well, funny!:laugh:

Yes, our g'damn pay is shameful. GUESS WHO "NEGOTIATED" IT?!?!?!

You did ******************** for brains!

That's right, your beloved ALPA.

That's right, you ARE ALPA dumbass! It's made up of YOU, eastholes!

That is one of a plethora of reasons we voted ALPA off the farm (no matter how many times twa dude stands there, arms folded, shaking his head telling the world that it was only the Nic.) Furthermore, guess who's dirtbag wages our management was shooting for back in the ALPA consession stand days? Yeah, Tranny's, AWA's, etc. Or, I guess somewhere between there and GIA's....that's where we ended up under ALPA.....ALPA!!!! We are where we are because of dirtbags like you, and now you have the disingenious gall to point fingers.

So, instead of shooting for lowere paying carriers (in your words) such as AWA or AT, you figured, hey, we'll show them and undercut all those sorry low paid pilots by setting a new standard of low pay! Way to go jackass, you easholes give new meaning to undercutting!

You hate to break it to me?? That's funny, how many times have all the ALPA lovers said "hate to break it to you, but your gonna lose the appeal"?
The day you, as a premiere Internet Troll, break anything significant to me will be a cold day in PHX in August.

Enjoy the 190 as an f/o on that stellar pay junior, for as long as dougweiser decides to hold on to the remaing few you have.
In the meantime, I'll keep my shortsided obvious posts to maggots like you for the continued enjoyment of others to read.
AMF troll!

 

[LaGarbage Man]

Can not remember who guessed 8 pages but here you go.


Bump!!!!!

Well I thought it would put it over the top
Guess the next post will do it.
I am heading back to the fridge to get another beer.
Please feel free to continue with the bash fest, It never get old "NOT"
Would someone be so kind to let us third listers know when the adults from both sides have sat down and actually started making some progress towards a new contract and recalls. Thanks

 

[johnsonrod]

This ruling just makes the worst legacy airline that much worse. Let's just face it, USAirways is the fat, ugly girl at the ball that nobody wants to dance with. This unending pilot conflict makes potential needed consolidation difficult. Where's the growth? Is there a plan? USAirways is like a ship with no rudder.

 

[Crzipilot]

whoopps....that didn't make it eight...maybe this will???


Anyways, TWA just read the decision from the 9th, have you?!?!?!? I've seen some quotes taken out of context by some of the west guys, I'll be sure to post some from the winning side...

 

[Crzipilot]

[5] We conclude that this case presents contingencies that
could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the
accompanying injury. At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA. Likewise, it is not certain whether that proposal
will be ratified by the USAPA membership as part of a new,
single CBA. Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal — whatever USAPA’s final proposal ultimately
is. Because these contingencies make the claim speculative,
the issues are not yet fit for judicial decision.



Kinda sounds here, that USAPA is kinda free to negotiate whatever seniority proposal they wish, And not until it's actually voted into a CBA will the west be able to determine whether or not an actual DFR has happened.

 

[Crzipilot]

[7] Plaintiffs correctly note that certain West Pilots have
been furloughed, whereas they would still be working under
a single CBA implementing the Nicolau Award. It is, however,
at best, speculative that a single CBA incorporating the
Nicolau Award would be ratified if presented to the union’s
membership. ALPA had been unable to broker a compromise
between the two pilot groups, and the East Pilots had
expressed their intentions not to ratify a CBA containing the
Nicolau Award. Thus, even under the district court’s injunction
mandating USAPA to pursue the Nicolau Award, it is
uncertain that the West Pilots’ preferred seniority system ever
would be effectuated. That the court cannot fashion a remedy
that will alleviate Plaintiffs’ harm suggests that the case is not
ripe.1

What say you West Pilots?????

Seems the door is open to negotiate anything in section 22 USAPA wants. Until that policy is voted in will you be able to tell if you have been harmed unfairly.

My thinking is any future court of law will not look at what is negotiated vs. the NIC award, but more than likely, what the common man would find fair and resonable between two parties vs. what is negotiated...


[8] Plaintiffs seek to escape this conclusion by framing
their harm as the lost opportunity to have a CBA implementing
the Nicolau Award put to a ratification vote. Because
merely putting a CBA effectuating the Nicolau Award to a
ratification vote will not itself alleviate the West Pilots furloughs,
Plaintiffs have not identified a sufficiently concrete
injury.2 Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

 

[Crzipilot]

This ruling just makes the worst legacy airline that much worse. Let's just face it, USAirways is the fat, ugly girl at the ball that nobody wants to dance with. This unending pilot conflict makes potential needed consolidation difficult. Where's the growth? Is there a plan? USAirways is like a ship with no rudder.

Hey, aren't fat girls like mopeds????? They may not wanna dance with her, but after the ball, there's a line to get on board....HAHAHAHA


I believe you will see, that the pilot conflict will die away.

 

[TWA Dude]

Oh and a few other points to ponder.

Your lecture was irrelevant. What ALPA did or didn't do is irrelevant. Do you even understand what a union's Duty to Fairly Represent means? This is about USAPA. Even if the Nicolau list didn't exist USAPA doesn't have the right to integrate the list to our disadvantage. You can come up with whatever so-called conditions and restrictions or "protections" you want but the courts will know it's the seniority number that counts.

Until Section 22 comes out, and is voted in place, will you be able to see if you have enough merit to file a DFR.

Thank you for restating the obvious.

Will the DFR be successful I guess that's your 2 million dollar bet you'll have to place.

It's your bet too.

My suggestion is, you drop some of your venom and get involved with the process, deal your your legally elected representatives, and ensure your voice is heard as to what your interests are in relation to finally integrating the seniority lists......

Did it and done it. That "tyranny of the majority" thing is kind of hard to get around though.

 

[Crzipilot]

So if the NIC list didn't exist....how would you combine the two lists?

Because at the same time, you can not step on the rights and expectations of the east pilots either......

See a common theme here?

I mean have you really read through the points made in the 9th's decision?!?!?

 

[TWA Dude]

So if the NIC list didn't exist....how would you combine the two lists?

I'd let arbitrators decide.

See a common theme here?

With the Easties, yes. Entitlement.

I mean have you really read through the points made in the 9th's decision?!?!?

Yes. Why do you ask?

 

[Crzipilot]

I ask, because that would negate alot of the points which you are trying to make in your responses here.

Entitlement, I demand the capt seat NOW, no matter where it might be. PHL 767/330 etc etc....ok....entitlement.

the only ENTITLEMENT we have asked for, Is the change to ride the wave of OUR retirements.

Save the "who saved who" crap, because that's all crystal ball, business leverage and maneuvering.

The short upgrades you were experiencing and aircraft deliveries etc etc....were a blip in the course of a long career. A Bigger view of the industry as a whole shows a different story, and as time went on AWA would have followed the industry.....

Either way, You can now read the decision, accept what the judges in a court of law have decided, and become part of the solution and not the problem....

 

[Crzipilot]

I'd let arbitrators decide.

So then you have no opinion of how to fairly integrate two seniority lists of vast disparity of LOS times. Then you really shouldn't be on here arguing, as you should be just as happy to accept what is negotiated into Section 22, when the process with the company, Union, and NMB is completed.

When that section is ratified and voted into a CBA, then you can come on here and claim you have been mistreated. Until then. the 9th has said, Hush....

 

[TWA Dude]

So then you have no opinion of how to fairly integrate two seniority lists of vast disparity of LOS times.

Of course I have an opinion but it's not relevant. More importantly I believe there should be fair process. Negotiation--> Mediation--> Arbitration. That's my opinion that matters.

Then you really shouldn't be on here arguing, as you should be just as happy to accept what is negotiated into Section 22, when the process with the company, Union, and NMB is completed.

????!

When that section is ratified and voted into a CBA, then you can come on here and claim you have been mistreated. Until then. the 9th has said, Hush....

Are you on some kind of mediation that affects your memory? Why do you keep repeating the same thing?

We're not communicating and I think I've found the problem. Please tell me in your own words what a unions Duty to Fairly Represent means. Bonus question: how does DFR differ from "tyranny of the majority"?

 

[Crzipilot]

There ya go..... So unless you have a working crystal ball. You don't know what section 22 is going to entail. And until you do. You haven't been harmed. Next...


As the court recognized, A CBA with NIC installed will most likely NEVER be voted in. In essence denying the union members the oppurtunity to enjoy increased benefits and pay. In leaving the NIC on the shelf, and combining seniority in a different fashion, which in turn, aids the union members in getting better pay and work rules, and possible advancement. How is that harming the union members, whereas being stuck on NIC provides more harm to the union members themselves......


We aren't havng a failure to communicate. Your having a failure to be reasonable....





Duty of fair representation is the legal duty of a union to equally, and in good faith, represent every employee in a bargaining unit, regardless of whether the employee is a union member or not. This legal duty arises out of the exclusive representative status unions hold under the National Labor Relations Act. A breach of the statutory duty of fair representation occurs only when a union's conduct toward a member of the collective bargaining unit is arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith.
The duty of fair representation requires that a union represent all workers equally and without prejudice. A union cannot refuse to represent or improperly represent a worker due to the worker’s age, race, creed, nationality, sex, religion, political beliefs, union status or personality. If a union fails to represent a worker due to prejudice or hostility the union can be held liable. Its purpose is to ensure that the course of action in any grievance case will be determined by the merits of the grievance, and not by the merits of the grievant. The union may refuse to file or process a grievance for any number of reasons so long as they are valid, however it may not arbitrarily refuse to process a meritorious grievance or decline to proceed to arbitration because of hostility to the grievant or irrelevant and ill-motivated reasons

 

[TWA Dude]

There ya go..... So unless you have a working crystal ball. You don't know what section 22 is going to entail. And until you do. You haven't been harmed. Next...

I guess you're right. And until the Sun rises tomorrow we won't know if that really will happen either. But if I were I betting man...

How is that harming the union members, whereas being stuck on NIC provides more harm to the union members themselves......

Are you asking me? That question should be posed to the East. We could've had a new contract in 2007 when the economy was good and the company profitable.

Duty of fair representation is the legal duty of a union to equally...

Wow, you can cut and paste. There's a reason I asked for your own words. You don't seem to understand how USAPA's DFR applies to the former AWA pilots. Seham apparently doesn't either. Oh well, see you in court.

 

[weasel_lips]

The greed on the west side is amazing. You guys wan't it all.

Where do you guys come off thinking all the furloughs should be on the east side only. Your flying was cut the most and now you are doing 20+ % of the east flying (which saved you 20+ % more furloughes ).... not enough for you guys... you want the east to take all the furloughs too. + you want all the upgrades on the east.

Hell, I am surpised you guys arent going to sue for the widebody positions too. why not?

 

[Turtle21]

And what if you lose the LOA 93 arbitration? Hate to break it to you, but that's the far more likely outcome. Will you then feel the need to finally stop being obstructionists and start working with the West pilots instead of against them? Every pilot in this country has a dog in this fight, because your shameful $124/hr top out pay rate on the 737/Airbus is holding all of us back.

Hi PCL. Glad you stopped by. The 9th put to rest any notion that there is an East and West. There is, we. We will vote on a new contract and then anyone that feels slighted can take it to court.

Cheers.

P.S. ALPA was the best habit that I ever kicked.