USAPA sues some America West Pilots

[PCL_128]

You really need to be cautious about those "bedrock principles" in the CoUS and the DoI, because, when you do the research, if you really care about it, you will find that those "bedrock principles" pretty much make you and me look pretty foolish, especially if you want to use them analogous with this situation.

Think about it.

T8

Care to elaborate? If you're merely talking about the seriousness of the two issues, then I see what you're saying, and I agree. It's obvious that the issues confronting the founders were far more serious, but the principles of equality, fairness, protection from an immoral majority, etc... are the same. It's the same principles on different scales.

 

[TWA Dude]

Having 5-8 yr AWA Capts pushing 20 yr USAIR vets out of their seniority, regardless of who bought who, is B.S.

Like many you confuse the concept of seniority versus longevity. In 2005 when the merger was announced the junior USAirways pilot had a DOH of 1986. That's right, after 19 years on the property he was junior. Translating that DOH over to AWA makes him in the top 5% at AWA. So really, DOH in this case is nothing but a wholesale slaughter of the AWA pilots' seniority.

Seniority counts at USAirways and seniority counts at AWA. Combining the two makes a new company and Nicolau fashioned a list whereby everybody keeps their premerger status. How is that not fair?

Be fair guys and give until it hurts or you will all get hurt.

What does that mean? It's already been proven that we'll never come to a consensual agreement on a seniority list so a neutral is the only way to go. And we went there.

Draw your own conclusions but the posters today appear to be a lot more aggressive and "lippy."

Whatever you say, grandpa.

 

[FR8mastr]

Seniority counts at USAirways and seniority counts at AWA. Combining the two makes a new company and Nicolau fashioned a list whereby everybody keeps their premerger status. How is that not fair? .

When in 10 years the seniority list looks exactly like the one you are so afraid of in reverse.
That is why attrition needed to play a role, it wasn't, so in 10 years the West will hold the majority of the Captain spots. Again this is the exact scenario that everyone out West is so up in arms about now with USAPA. This is exactly why we need fences

 

[PCL_128]

Draw your own conclusions but the posters today appear to be a lot more aggressive

I'm pretty sure that some of the CAL strikers that attempted to plant bombs and throw bricks through SCAB windows in '83 were a little more aggressive than some FI posters. I'm also pretty sure that the EAL strikers in Miami that practically started a riot in the streets when they were heckled by passers by were a little more aggressive than FI posters. And then there's the National Airlines pilots way back that got into fist fights in the cockpit with SCABs after the strike was over. That seems a lot more aggressive to me. Still think modern pilots are more aggressive than their predecessors? I think not. If anything, we've become far too soft.

 

[cactusboy53]

Wrong....that's just one APA member. Many APA and countless ALPA members (OK, more than two) have congratulated us on ridding ourselves of ALPA.

ALPA sucks. That's why they are no longer here. You should really get over it, PCL, especially since you work for a carrier that has no link to any of this, one with a large population of very questionable characters when it comes to organized labor, eh? You must really be in need of a life to spend so much time on this topic.

"We are worthy. We are able. We are entitled. We deserve this, and gosh darn it we like ourselves!"

Disclaimer: USAPA leaders / members are not licensed therapists or counselors, but are members of several multi-step programs

 

[PlaneDrvr]

I'm pretty sure that some of the CAL strikers that attempted to plant bombs and throw bricks through SCAB windows in '83 were a little more aggressive than some FI posters. I'm also pretty sure that the EAL strikers in Miami that practically started a riot in the streets when they were heckled by passers by were a little more aggressive than FI posters. And then there's the National Airlines pilots way back that got into fist fights in the cockpit with SCABs after the strike was over. That seems a lot more aggressive to me. Still think modern pilots are more aggressive than their predecessors? I think not. If anything, we've become far too soft.

And yet you said just a few post back that you flew with a 'scab' some time ago, and all you did is 'give him the silent treatment. Why did you beat the hell out of him??? You wimpy bastard, you are a disgrace to all unionism.

On a serious note, so you think that the AWA pilots should have riots in the streets of PHX, and start throwing bricks, even though there is NO strike??

Also, when are you going to start a vote drive to bring your beloved alpa into airtran?? After all, what have you had, two failed TAs, and no progress. I know you said before, you would love to have alpa, but the pilots there don't want it. Tell you what, start an organizational drive, have a vote; NPA or alpa, and you can see what the pilots decide?? Oh, that's right, I believe that is what the US Air/AWA pilots did, right?

PD

P.S. Also, FYI, to settle your misunderstanding from a previous thread; a friend of mine from airways, emailed me the letter that US Air V.P. of human resources sent to usapa, clearly stating that as per the CBAs (both agreements), and the company, there is a clear 'agency shop' agreement. Now, I hope that you call on all pilots to either pay union dues or the service fee, or as you said, the company should 'fire' them.

 

[cactusboy53]

"THE East does not want the WEST jobs! You can not say the same in reverse. I don't know how to make that any more clear."

WRONG. There are some west that live in the East that would love to cut the commute. There's about the same number of West coast Easties that would love to do the same.

I've met one from SAN. He would be in the top 10 in PHX. Imagine....NEVER working a Holiday, Birthday, Anniversary again. NEVER having to pay for a crashpad or hotel room again. 31 Days of vacation pay, FULL pay for mechanicals, FULL pay for deadheads, IV (150%) Pay for fixing crew staffing probems, 125% pay for voluteering to help out, better 401K contributions, and West pay or better.......Well, that was when LCC was making money last fall. Nearly all of the new contract was done save for financials.

We are looking at YEARS of segregation. Too bad.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Go Penguins!

The Penguins are a bunch of hacks.

 

[TWA Dude]

This is exactly why we need fences

First, you might have missed the shift since 1986: no more long-term fences. The Ozark and Rebublic integrations have gone on for decades causing continuous bitterness and disputes. Arbitrators now want everything completed in five years or less so we can all grieve and move on.

Second: fences don't change the fact that furloughs come based on seniority. A DOH integration makes AWA your furlough fodder and that's obviously unacceptable. As I've written before it's only fair for both sides to share the pain of furlough. In case you didn't know, furloughs at USAirways are imminent. It's up to management to decide and if they're smart they'll spread the pain proportionately.

 

[eaglesview]

"THE East does not want the WEST jobs! You can not say the same in reverse. I don't know how to make that any more clear."

WRONG. There are some west that live in the East that would love to cut the commute. There's about the same number of West coast Easties that would love to do the same.

I've met one from SAN. He would be in the top 10 in PHX. Imagine....NEVER working a Holiday, Birthday, Anniversary again. NEVER having to pay for a crashpad or hotel room again. 31 Days of vacation pay, FULL pay for mechanicals, FULL pay for deadheads, IV (150%) Pay for fixing crew staffing probems, 125% pay for voluteering to help out, better 401K contributions, and West pay or better.......Well, that was when LCC was making money last fall. Nearly all of the new contract was done save for financials.

We are looking at YEARS of segregation. Too bad.

Years of segregation..hmm sounds like exactly what the east wants.

 

[PCL_128]

And yet you said just a few post back that you flew with a 'scab' some time ago, and all you did is 'give him the silent treatment. Why did you beat the hell out of him??? You wimpy bastard, you are a disgrace to all unionism.

On a serious note, so you think that the AWA pilots should have riots in the streets of PHX, and start throwing bricks, even though there is NO strike??

Nowhere did I advocate fist fights or riots. I merely pointed out the error in the other poster's statement that pilots have become more aggressive over the past few years. It's simply not true. I do believe we've become too soft when some pilots complain of too many calls to a hotline, though.

Also, when are you going to start a vote drive to bring your beloved alpa into airtran?? After all, what have you had, two failed TAs, and no progress. I know you said before, you would love to have alpa, but the pilots there don't want it. Tell you what, start an organizational drive, have a vote; NPA or alpa, and you can see what the pilots decide?? Oh, that's right, I believe that is what the US Air/AWA pilots did, right?

I believe I've answered this question before. Changing unions in the middle of contract negotiations would not be a smart move. I do hope to see the NPA merge into ALPA someday, however.

P.S. Also, FYI, to settle your misunderstanding from a previous thread; a friend of mine from airways, emailed me the letter that US Air V.P. of human resources sent to usapa, clearly stating that as per the CBAs (both agreements), and the company, there is a clear 'agency shop' agreement. Now, I hope that you call on all pilots to either pay union dues or the service fee, or as you said, the company should 'fire' them.

I don't care what the company says, the AWA pilots shouldn't send a dime to USCABA. Let's see them terminate 1800 pilots all at once.

 

[CopilotDoug]

Let's see them terminate 1800 pilots all at once.

...because there are NO qualified pilots on the street who are hungry for a job right now

 

[eaglesview]

I believe I've answered this question before. Changing unions in the middle of contract negotiations would not be a smart move. I do hope to see the NPA merge into ALPA someday, however.



I don't care what the company says, the AWA pilots shouldn't send a dime to USCABA. Let's see them terminate 1800 pilots all at once.

Actually now might be the time to try ALPA. They are in deserate need of money after the butt kicking they took at USAir. That said why anyone would want ALPA is beyond me.

As far as dues go they will not terminate 1800 pilots you are right about that. They will fire a few to motivate the rest. I say they start with the guys who thought it was a good idea to mail their waste.

 

[PCL_128]

Actually now might be the time to try ALPA. They are in deserate need of money after the butt kicking they took at USAir.

ALPA will be just fine.

As far as dues go they will not terminate 1800 pilots you are right about that. They will fire a few to motivate the rest. I say they start with the guys who thought it was a good idea to mail their waste.

Illegal. This is called disparity of treatment. If the company fires one pilot for refusing to pay dues, then they have to fire all pilots who are refusing to pay dues. If they want to fire one, they have to fire all 1800, simultaneously. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[CopilotDoug]

ALPA will be just fine.

So you hope...

 

[PCL_128]

So you hope...

With $80 million in the MCF, I don't think "hope" is necessary.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

ALPA will be just fine.



Illegal. This is called disparity of treatment. If the company fires one pilot for refusing to pay dues, then they have to fire all pilots who are refusing to pay dues. If they want to fire one, they have to fire all 1800, simultaneously. Ain't gonna happen.

I agree, it is illegal to do it that way.

However, if they send out letters to everyone (all 1800), most will just pay up, especially when faced with termination, as you're not talking about a lot of $$. The 'hardliners/nutcases' who want to 'make at stand' probably a small percentage, will not pay up and as I said, make a stand. In this time of cutbacks/downsizing, if you have 200-400 who 'take a stand' and don't pay up; you just cut 200-400 without have to furlough. Probably cheaper to cut that way. And, don't put it beyond Parker to do something like that, as he is a 'bottom line' guy and doesn't have any loyality to either side, east or west. His loyality is with the 'shareholders/investers/Wall Streat' and the bottom line. However, the west guys might be unestimating his loyality and it might bite them.

For what its worth, now rant away.

PD

 

[CopilotDoug]

With $80 million in the MCF, I don't think "hope" is necessary.

All their problems are solved then. Don't worry about UALs membership...

 

[weasel_lips]

Illegal. This is called disparity of treatment. If the company fires one pilot for refusing to pay dues, then they have to fire all pilots who are refusing to pay dues. If they want to fire one, they have to fire all 1800, simultaneously. Ain't gonna happen.

.

[ REMOVED ]

 

[PCL_128]

I agree, it is illegal to do it that way.

However, if they send out letters to everyone (all 1800), most will just pay up, especially when faced with termination, as you're not talking about a lot of $$. The 'hardliners/nutcases' who want to 'make at stand' probably a small percentage, will not pay up and as I said, make a stand. In this time of cutbacks/downsizing, if you have 200-400 who 'take a stand' and don't pay up; you just cut 200-400 without have to furlough. Probably cheaper to cut that way. And, don't put it beyond Parker to do something like that, as he is a 'bottom line' guy and doesn't have any loyality to either side, east or west. His loyality is with the 'shareholders/investers/Wall Streat' and the bottom line. However, the west guys might be unestimating his loyality and it might bite them.

For what its worth, now rant away.

PD

I think you underestimate the unity of the West pilots. If Doogie sent out letters to all of them to pay up (something I don't think he'll do, anyway), then I doubt more than 100 or so would pay up. You'd have to be a complete fool to send money to an organization that was created for the purpose of screwing you over.

 

[PCL_128]

All their problems are solved then. Don't worry about UALs membership...

I'm not worried. UAL won't be going anywhere.

 

[Bdfg1]

You'd have to be a complete fool to send money to an organization that was created for the purpose of screwing you over.

Glad you finally see the reason alpo was kicked off the property at USAir. Maybe there is some hope for you after all.

See ya!

 

[737 Pylt]

Glad you finally see the reason alpo was kicked off the property at USAir. Maybe there is some hope for you after all.

See ya!

I was dead set on keeping ALPA on the property. That is until you began to chime in. Thanks for changing my mind and voting ALPA out. You deserve a medal.

​

Never said I take it for granted. As you pointed out I'm "training PSA pilots since I'm a J4J Capt." Looks like I'm taking advantage of it.

​

Your 6.4 b b b b billion los pal,

737

 

[PCL_128]

Your 6.4 b b b b billion los pal,

737

Don't worry, his precious "union" will protect his USCABASS. :laugh:

 

[Bdfg1]

Don't worry, his precious "union" will protect his USCABASS. :laugh:

Again you are great at assumptions considering I don't have a union.

Just for you general/737/degree mill bill....

6.7 ba ba BILLION!

Although I'll have to give degree mill bill credit...even though his mail order degree is meaningless...at least he has SOMETHING.


See ya!

 

[PCL_128]

I don't have a union.

Yeah, I guess you're right, since USCABA isn't a real union at all.

 

[Bdfg1]

Yeah, I guess you're right, since USCABA isn't a real union at all.

Considering LCC recognizes that organization as the offcial CBA for the pilot group, I would say you are once again incorrect. Suprised?

See ya!

 

[Carl S.]

Hello my fellow AWA pilots and scum from the East, I'm back from my one week ban for calling the East the dreaded S*** word! I was told I have to learn what a SC*B is. Anyone want to help me understand why the East ,at least in the moderator's view, is not a SCA* organization?
The West contract says we only pay ALPA as our CBA, thanks to Howard Attarian and the AWAPA threat in 2004. So no ALPA, no money, let's litigate if you disagree! Would USCABA agree to a legal result, or only one that suits them?

The East wanted a war, well you got one, now people on both sides will pay and suffer because the East would not follow the legal process of arbitration.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm back from my one week ban for calling the East the dreaded S*** word! I was told I have to learn what a SC*B is. Anyone want to help me understand why the East ,at least in the moderator's view, is not a SCA* organization?

I guess I'll be getting banned too, then, because I refuse to stop calling them the SCABs that they are!

The East wanted a war, well you got one

I'm sure this ridiculous lawsuit will only serve to increase the resolve and militancy of the West. Smart move, SCABford! Good luck to the West pilots. You didn't deserve to get stuck with this group of SCABs.

 

[Bdfg1]

Hello my fellow AWA pilots and scum from the East, I'm back from my one week ban for calling the East the dreaded S*** word! I was told I have to learn what a SC*B is. Anyone want to help me understand why the East ,at least in the moderator's view, is not a SCA* organization?
The West contract says we only pay ALPA as our CBA, thanks to Howard Attarian and the AWAPA threat in 2004. So no ALPA, no money, let's litigate if you disagree! Would USCABA agree to a legal result, or only one that suits them?

The East wanted a war, well you got one, now people on both sides will pay and suffer because the East would not follow the legal process of arbitration.

Ask PFT-128 if you can borrow his uneducated pft pillow to cry on.

See ya!