USAirways East losing respect.

[AutoBus]

I respectfully disagree: Yes you can--the east's age 60 (or age 65 if it changes) attrition is absolutely quantifiable and known. Those 200+ per year attrition slots were age-related (whether it be 60 or 65) and will happen.

And still account for all the variables that affect the industry, I doubt it. Anyway you got the top 517 spots and a fence, sounds to me like you got some protection.

Your MEC chairman with his stuborne call for DOH and nothing less tried to go for the whole Enchilada and lost! perhaps a more reasonable position might have kept it out of the arbitrators hands.

 

[NCFlyer]

Your MEC chairman with his stubborn call for DOH and nothing less tried to go for the whole Enchilada and lost! perhaps a more reasonable position might have kept it out of the arbitrators hands.

Hind sight is 20/20 so they say.

Something as vitally important as seniority integration should have been dealt with and kept out of a 3rd party's hands. Once it left the control of the 2 MECs there was nothing but educated guessing as to what the outcome might be.

However, I'm not sure that you can use the word reasonable any time you are dealing with the AAA MEC.

 

[Itsallsogood]

Talk to the US East payroll dept they're a few in Tempe now. They were not going to make payroll and checks were gonna bounce.

Somehow it is now out. AWA paid the payroll for the East for two weeks prior to the anouncement. East owes West. BIG time.

 

[Deadbug]

And still account for all the variables that affect the industry, I doubt it. Anyway you got the top 517 spots and a fence, sounds to me like you got some protection....

That's the thing about the age-60/65 related attrition due to retirements. In good/stagnant times it is advancement...in bad times it equates to protection from furlough. In any event those attritions due to mandatory retirement belonged to the east, and should have been factored in.
With regards to fences, there was only one fence--the 4-yr widebody--and that remains only if the age-60 policy stays in place.
I know I can't change anybody's opinion--it's all perspective, but please re-read my original post.
DB

 

[Fast43]

Now, I want to say this very clearly:
Speaking from PRIOR MERGER EXPERIENCE: There will always be griping about an arbitrated seniority list. The problem with this arbitration is NOT with the idea of slotting--or even the so-called "relative seniority". The real problem is that the East's attrition--was not taken in to account in the award. It could have been taken care of either by fences (the simplest way), or by a different slotting for the ones impacted most--the lower third of the east's list.

If this one issue would've been addressed properly by the arbitrator, this would've been accepted pretty much like most other of our past arbitrations...with typical grumbling acceptance.
DB

I would like to say equally Clearly
The arbitrator heard all about the east sides attrition at great length, read the transcripts and you will agree. However that attrition is not a factor since AAA would not have lasted long enough to realize any of it. i e their Career expectations in late may of 2005 were not very long. Many debate this but at the Arbitration the east merger committee was not able to bring real proof that AAA would have stood alone for very much longer. The east side guys dont seem to be able to stomach this. But it is this lack of career expectation that led to this result. The Arbitrator stated clearly that the furloughed pilots came back BECAUSE of the merger. by the way if they did come back without the merger, it would have been to the bottom also.

If your an east guy maybe you can tell me why the merger committee spent more than one minute trying to get 104 guys on to the merged list that had never been hired by or flown a Mainline jet for AAA. They were nowhere to be found on your list until the Merger was announced.

Seems to me that the energy spent on this unbelievable premise could have been better spent.

 

[Fast43]

Made me spit coffee out my nose...

However, Green has a point. There will only be a handful of people who will take it to the mat, but sometimes a vocal minority is just enough to screw up the whole d*mn thing for everyone.

Personally, I'd just take all my sick time, accrued vacation, spend it all while applying at Netjets when I was approaching the date where a West guy would be able to bump me out of my seat, hopefully benefiting from some type of retirement deal in the new contract (something is better than nothing), then leave for a NJA or another corporate gig.

Can you PROVE they were on the verge of death?

No one allows a major with that many leases to just shut down. Nearly destroyed some banks back in the day when EAL and PanAm did. Bankers are smarter than that.

No, I can't prove it. But neither can you. Which makes it a moot point for debating career expectations.

No, they didn't.

I remember this pretty clearly, because of a funny story with my Dad at the time.

Just after his 30th birthday Piedmont called my Dad for an interview, sent him to class, then the 2nd day of class while bidding for aircraft (by age) they said, "Oh wait, you've already turned 30". Turns out the app was processed before his birthday, then he went to class AFTER his birthday and the max age for a new-hire pilot was "not over the age of 29" (obviously pre age-discrimination). So they sent him home.

2 months later UAir hired him. 5 years later he's sitting as a DC-9 F/O when the Piedmont integration comes in. He came home with the new seniority list in his hand and partied all night - not because the Piedmont guys got screwed - but because they had sent him home and he ended up senior to the vast majority of them.

Within months he was a 737 CA a LONG time before he ever expected to get it. 10 years later he moved up to 757 CA. If memory serves, most of the ex-Piedmont guys are now F/O's. How many ex-Piedmont guys are still CA's? My dad would have been (hanging on to bottom 737 reserve CA in CLT).

Maybe many of the Piedmont guys did get DOH, but a LARGE NUMBER of them got stapled and bumped a lot of UAir guys up the list, dramatically improving their career expectations. Definitely a windfall. Wasn't fair for the Piedmont guys, and they spent YEARS making sure every UAir guy that came through CLT knew about it.

Lear 70 you need to review the current merger policy.

Maintain Career expectations is one of the directives.

Career expectations were indeed hotly debated and in everybody in the worlds view but most importantly the Arbitrators view was that AAA had reached the the end of its road. Hence not a very good career expectation.

why is this so hard of concept to grasp??

 

[Fast43]

Let's make sure we all understand something. AWA did not aquire AAA. AWA did not have the funds available to do that. The financing came from outside sources and was funnelled through AWA because they were not in bankrupcy at the time. However, had this merger not taken place, AWA would have found themselves in bankrupcy in the not to didtant future.

Wrong

Please educate yourself better on the particulars!!

 

[Lear70]

Career expectations were indeed hotly debated and in everybody in the worlds view but most importantly the Arbitrators view was that AAA had reached the the end of its road. Hence not a very good career expectation.

why is this so hard of concept to grasp??

Ok, God.

I'm sorry. You're right, I'm wrong. I should've asked you first since you know what EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD is thinking.

Guess the people on here who disagree with you don't know what they're thinking, either.

Get it yet, Einstein? You're speaking in absolutes and you can't every speak to know what everyone else is thinking, just to satisfy your own viewpoints.

People like you really p*ss me off.

I'm done with this thread. I've also lost a LOT of respect for the AWA pilots on this board.

No one wants to use the FACTS behind the situation, they simply want to use what they "feel" or "believe" would have happened.

The FACTS are that UAir was an operating company. No one's payroll had bounced. No PROOF exists that it would have. If you have access to the bank account statements of UAir on the day prior to the MERGER, feel free to post a link.

That's what I thought.

I'm glad I don't live anywhere near a UAir or AWA domicile and never have to jumpseat on you guys.

uke:

You're right, I'm wrong, I'm done.

unsubscribed from thread for lack of intelligent debate and pointless waste of my time.

 

[PositiveRate]

Sorry Lear, US Airways was going out of business. As well, Fast 43 made two excellent points...

1) "The arbitrator heard all about the east sides attrition at great length, read the transcripts and you will agree. However that attrition is not a factor since AAA would not have lasted long enough to realize any of it. i e their Career expectations in late may of 2005 were not very long. Many debate this but at the Arbitration the east merger committee was not able to bring real proof that AAA would have stood alone for very much longer."

and

2) "maybe you can tell me why the merger committee spent more than one minute trying to get 104 guys on to the merged list that had never been hired by or flown a Mainline jet for AAA. They were nowhere to be found on your list until the Merger was announced."

Things that make you go hmmm...


-----


"I'm glad I don't live anywhere near a UAir or AWA domicile and never have to jumpseat on you guys."

Me too buddy. We're also looking forward to you no longer posting your spew on this thread as if you were personally assaulted by the award when in reality, your only connection to this saga is that your daddy was a US Airways pilot.

Tell pops we send our love.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Let's make sure we all understand something. AWA did not aquire AAA. AWA did not have the funds available to do that. The financing came from outside sources and was funnelled through AWA because they were not in bankrupcy at the time. However, had this merger not taken place, AWA would have found themselves in bankrupcy in the not to didtant future.

This is the kind of B.S. that just cracks me right up!! Metro, we were making profits prior to the merger being announced. To make the statement that AWA would have found themselves in BK in the not so distant future is simply false.

Lets put an end to all this crying and breath holding shall we? Get yourself current copy of section 45 of the ALPA merger policy. Read and let soak in the part where it clearly states "all awards are final and binding"!!! You can cry to national, pass resolutions for the executive council to review, and beg John Prater till you're blue in the face. When you all done at the end of the day ALPA has no choice but to defend this award against anything and everyone PERIOD. To do otherwise woud destablize the entire structure of ALPA and the DFR lawsuit would bankrupt this union. 75 years of service and over 70,000 members worldwide and you think they are going to flush that for 2000 upset no check that 1483 cause I forgot about the total winfall for the top 517 east pilots!!! Let me hit that pipe you're smokin

WD.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Let's make sure we all understand something. AWA did not aquire AAA. AWA did not have the funds available to do that. The financing came from outside sources and was funnelled through AWA because they were not in bankrupcy at the time. However, had this merger not taken place, AWA would have found themselves in bankrupcy in the not to didtant future.

That's like saying you don't own your house because you had to borrow money to get it. Nope. Its my house until I stop making payments.

AWA borrowed money to aquire US Airways. Same thing.

I wonder how many more times we'll have to explain this.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Made me spit coffee out my nose...

Personally, I'd just take all my sick time, accrued vacation, spend it all while applying at Netjets when I was approaching the date where a West guy would be able to bump me out of my seat, hopefully benefiting from some type of retirement deal in the new contract (something is better than nothing), then leave for a NJA or another corporate gig.

And with basing and pay for newhires as it is... no blame here.

Free type ratings! Come to NetJets.

 

[Green]

This is the kind of B.S. that just cracks me right up!! Metro, we were making profits prior to the merger being announced. To make the statement that AWA would have found themselves in BK in the not so distant future is simply false.

Lets put an end to all this crying and breath holding shall we? Get yourself current copy of section 45 of the ALPA merger policy. Read and let soak in the part where it clearly states "all awards are final and binding"!!! You can cry to national, pass resolutions for the executive council to review, and beg John Prater till you're blue in the face. When you all done at the end of the day ALPA has no choice but to defend this award against anything and everyone PERIOD. To do otherwise woud destablize the entire structure of ALPA and the DFR lawsuit would bankrupt this union. 75 years of service and over 70,000 members worldwide and you think they are going to flush that for 2000 upset no check that 1483 cause I forgot about the total winfall for the top 517 east pilots!!! Let me hit that pipe you're smokin

WD.

Well Said WD!!

 

[Fast43]

Ok, God.

I'm sorry. You're right, I'm wrong. I should've asked you first since you know what EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD is thinking.


I suppose I did use too broad a stroke in that discription.

I should have said

Everybody in the World with the ability to reason could see AAA was at the end of its rope.

I'm sorry as it seems you don't have that ability I shouldn't have placed you in that group.


Soon you will figure out that not everybody can get the swingin deal you say your daddy got.

 

[Deadbug]

I would like to say equally Clearly
The arbitrator heard all about the east sides attrition at great length, read the transcripts and you will agree. However that attrition is not a factor since AAA would not have lasted long enough to realize any of it. i e their Career expectations in late may of 2005 were not very long. Many debate this but at the Arbitration the east merger committee was not able to bring real proof that AAA would have stood alone for very much longer. The east side guys dont seem to be able to stomach this. But it is this lack of career expectation that led to this result...

If that is all correct, the arbitrator would have just stapled all of east, including the top 517 under the bottom west guy . But he didn't--far from it.

As I've said before, I've been through four of these seniority list arbitrations and mergers...so many people attempt to speak with absolute authority on this topic, without the experience both in the industry and with mergers in general. I know it is a very emotional issue for those involved. Please reread my very first post on this topic.
DB

 

[Fast43]

If that is all correct, the arbitrator would have just stapled all of east, including the top 517 under the bottom west guy . But he didn't--far from it.

As I've said before, I've been through four of these seniority list arbitrations and mergers...so many people attempt to speak with absolute authority on this topic, without the experience both in the industry and with mergers in general. I know it is a very emotional issue for those involved. Please reread my very first post on this topic.
DB

Just because he gave the top 517 slots to east guys does not mean that they had career expectations that were any different than the rest. It was that AWA did not do this type of flying and so the arbitrator protected them for a period of time.

Stapling them would have been against policy as it would have been a windfall for us.

Their DOH method of intergration would have put over 2/3 of our guys on the bottom, windfall for them.

Since your an old hand at this. Does the east side always activate their Critical Incident Response team when they don't get there way in these things.

 

[AutoBus]

Since your an old hand at this. Does the east side always activate their Critical Incident Response team when they don't get there way in these things.

No, only when they can't recover thier careers at the expense of the AWA pilots.

Seriously, you guys really need to remove Jack before he does more damage. He is the one who insisted with the DOH approach (even though it is not alpa merger policy)

 

[Hpilot]

If that is all correct, the arbitrator would have just stapled all of east, including the top 517 under the bottom west guy . But he didn't--far from it.

DB

No he wouldn't have because we never asked for that. Although if you consider the East's absurd opening proposal we probably should have opened negotiations with a complete staple of the East. As it was we tried negotiating reasonably instead of emotionally. Most of the reasonable posts I've read aren't angry about where the furloughs were placed, but where the junior East FOs were positioned. All of this is a mute point though because the arbitration is binding. If the arbitrator had put the furloughs above me I would have been livid, but I would have accepted the path that had been taken. The ironic thing is it was the East that pushed us to arbitration in the first place because they wouldn't budge on anything.

 

[Deadbug]

Just because he gave the top 517 slots to east guys does not mean that they had career expectations that were any different than the rest. It was that AWA did not do this type of flying and so the arbitrator protected them for a period of time.
Stapling them would have been against policy as it would have been a windfall for us.
Their DOH method of intergration would have put over 2/3 of our guys on the bottom, windfall for them.
Since your an old hand at this. Does the east side always activate their Critical Incident Response team when they don't get there way in these things.

My point was to say that if you use the logic that the east's career expectations were nil...then the whole east list would've been way down the combined list, for example. And no, I just wasn't referring to the top 517. That 4-yr fence for the widebodies was meaningless--gone when age 60 goes.

For what its worth, I never felt straight DOH was reasonable unless there were tall fences and protections for all west side folks. Let me say for the record, I never felt straight DOH was going to happen. The whole idea there was primarily to protect the east's huge attritions due to mandatory-age retirement. We've all seen the math posted so many times on this board how the pilot demographics will be in the not-so-distant future.

As has been said many times on this board, a "successful" seniority list integration leaves (to an outside observer's viewpoint) both sides equally unhappy. And no, I can't recall any Critical Incident response teams being activated during past arbitration results--but then, with what we have been through in these recent years, I can certainly understand the reasoning. In the east there is universal line pilot agreement that this was not a fair (or equally unfair) award; that is the problem... There wasn't that feeling during our past mergers--I would always hear people moaning how much seniority they lost, yada yada...typical grumbling. But not this.
DB

 

[Deadbug]

No, only when they can't recover thier careers at the expense of the AWA pilots.

Seriously, you guys really need to remove Jack before he does more damage. He is the one who insisted with the DOH approach (even though it is not alpa merger policy)

In my opinion, nobody was trying to get anything at the west's expense; the east sees it as the other way around--as I've repeated in this thread many times: our huge age-related mandatory retirement attrition. Basically, an f/o on the east, due to the much older age, is now most likely to retire as an f/o. The typical west f/o, thanks to our retirements, no matter when they occur, not only will get to advance to the left seat, but will be very senior there when they retire.
DB

 

[Deadbug]

Most of the reasonable posts I've read aren't angry about where the furloughs were placed, but where the junior East FOs were positioned.

I agree...see my original post on this thread:

First of all, I want to say that my fellow pilots I work with here on the "east" side are good people--and except for a few rare exceptions, not any different than any pilot I've ever associated with both in and out of the military.

As an unwilling participant myself through at least 4 mergers in my over 19 years with the airline...I hate to see the inevitable stereotypes being bandied around. I really hope now, that like past mergers, with time, they will diminish...if not go away.

Now, I want to say this very clearly:
Speaking from PRIOR MERGER EXPERIENCE: There will always be griping about an arbitrated seniority list. The problem with this arbitration is NOT with the idea of slotting--or even the so-called "relative seniority". The real problem is that the East's attrition--was not taken in to account in the award. It could have been taken care of either by fences (the simplest way), or by a different slotting for the ones impacted most--the lower third of the east's list.

If this one issue would've been addressed properly by the arbitrator, this would've been accepted pretty much like most other of our past arbitrations...with typical grumbling acceptance.
DB

With that, I'm going to try my best to step away from (and stay off this and related threads) and go luv my domestic goddess. I hope the best for ALL of us here at the new USAirways. Back to lurking....

 

[Saabslime]

This is from the East Merger Committee introduction to their rank and file on July 16, 2005:

ALPA Merger Policy makes no mention of date of hire or any other method of achieving these goals. The Merger Representatives must determine which method or combinations of methods best meet the goals. The goals all address what your seniority will buy upon integration and into the future. This is the yardstick of fairness by which any proposed method of integration must be judged...

This process without a doubt can be divisive, both between the pilot groups and within the pilot groups. When the integration process is complete, we need to be able to move forward with one pilot group that is as unified as possible. When it is all said and done, we can become one formidable group of pilots.

When you meet America West pilots, be as welcoming as you can. Remember that the seniority list integration will not be accomplished in the jumpseat, the crewroom, web boards or the hotel van. Trust the process and trust your merger team to do the very best job we can in protecting the best interests of all US Airways pilots.

You can't say you guy's were'nt warned.....by your own no less.

 

[enigma]

I don't have a dog in this fight at the moment, but if rumors come to pass I may well have a small dog in it in the future. Or maybe, Spirit will just buy AAA east from Cactus. That will get interesting.

From what I hear, the arbitrator instructed AAA to come back without doh and AAA failed to follow his instructions. I have NO idea what's fair in this situation, but I dang sure know that you just don't jack with an arbitrator. He's going to win every time.

 

[Fast43]

My point was to say that if you use the logic that the east's career expectations were nil...then the whole east list would've been way down the combined list, for example. And no, I just wasn't referring to the top 517. That 4-yr fence for the widebodies was meaningless--gone when age 60 goes.

For what its worth, I never felt straight DOH was reasonable unless there were tall fences and protections for all west side folks. Let me say for the record, I never felt straight DOH was going to happen. The whole idea there was primarily to protect the east's huge attritions due to mandatory-age retirement. We've all seen the math posted so many times on this board how the pilot demographics will be in the not-so-distant future.

As has been said many times on this board, a "successful" seniority list integration leaves (to an outside observer's viewpoint) both sides equally unhappy. And no, I can't recall any Critical Incident response teams being activated during past arbitration results--but then, with what we have been through in these recent years, I can certainly understand the reasoning. In the east there is universal line pilot agreement that this was not a fair (or equally unfair) award; that is the problem... There wasn't that feeling during our past mergers--I would always hear people moaning how much seniority they lost, yada yada...typical grumbling. But not this.
DB

Maybe if you guys beat your head against the wall for higher fences instead of DOH that the Arbitrator told your leadership wouldn't happen back in Jan. But now you want to play.

As far as everyone being pissed!!

You were a dead airline!!!
we got 2+ years of no growth (and upgrades and hiring were comming)
You got the first 517 spots

When the relief of just how far you guys wanted to bend us over wears off, this side will be pissed at what you got and are getting.


Maybe it's been a tough time being an AAA pilot but It's hard to feel sorry for a bullheaded crybaby!!!

 

[gmorgan]

Would someone please post the complete Nicolau arbitration award.

Thanks

 

[UALjan15]

Would someone please post the complete Nicolau arbitration award.

Thanks

Dude, it's something like 76 pages! And I don't think we can link it to a public website.

 

[Fly-n-hi]

Personally, I'd just take all my sick time, accrued vacation, spend it all while applying at Netjets when I was approaching the date where a West guy would be able to bump me out of my seat, hopefully benefiting from some type of retirement deal in the new contract (something is better than nothing), then leave for a NJA or another corporate gig.

Huh? Bump you out of your seat? I'm getting a little tired of you people who keep commenting on this arbitration while knowing nothing about it.

Obviously, you haven't read the arbitrator's explaination, have you? The above quote proves that you really have no idea what you're talking about. Did your Daddy tell you this stuff?

Quit posting your nonsense.

 

[Itsallsogood]

And with basing and pay for newhires as it is... no blame here.

Free type ratings! Come to NetJets.

Be carefull for what you wish for. They will go to NetJets. Then sue you for your left seat because they believe that they are older and more experienced, therefore entitled to it.

 

[OnTheDole]

The typical west f/o, thanks to our retirements, no matter when they occur, not only will get to advance to the left seat, but will be very senior there when they retire.
DB

When I came to AWA upgrade was 7-8 years, with the new list my upgrade is looking like 8-9 years (assuming age 60 remains) - so explain to me how your retirements are helping me out? Retirements don't mean much to the incedible shriking airline - which is what we are now that we're US.