USAirways East losing respect.

[Fly-n-hi]

Let's make sure we all understand something. AWA did not aquire AAA. AWA did not have the funds available to do that. The financing came from outside sources and was funnelled through AWA because they were not in bankrupcy at the time. However, had this merger not taken place, AWA would have found themselves in bankrupcy in the not to didtant future.

That's like saying you don't own your house because you had to borrow money to get it. Nope. Its my house until I stop making payments.

AWA borrowed money to aquire US Airways. Same thing.

I wonder how many more times we'll have to explain this.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Made me spit coffee out my nose...

Personally, I'd just take all my sick time, accrued vacation, spend it all while applying at Netjets when I was approaching the date where a West guy would be able to bump me out of my seat, hopefully benefiting from some type of retirement deal in the new contract (something is better than nothing), then leave for a NJA or another corporate gig.

And with basing and pay for newhires as it is... no blame here.

Free type ratings! Come to NetJets.

 

[Green]

This is the kind of B.S. that just cracks me right up!! Metro, we were making profits prior to the merger being announced. To make the statement that AWA would have found themselves in BK in the not so distant future is simply false.

Lets put an end to all this crying and breath holding shall we? Get yourself current copy of section 45 of the ALPA merger policy. Read and let soak in the part where it clearly states "all awards are final and binding"!!! You can cry to national, pass resolutions for the executive council to review, and beg John Prater till you're blue in the face. When you all done at the end of the day ALPA has no choice but to defend this award against anything and everyone PERIOD. To do otherwise woud destablize the entire structure of ALPA and the DFR lawsuit would bankrupt this union. 75 years of service and over 70,000 members worldwide and you think they are going to flush that for 2000 upset no check that 1483 cause I forgot about the total winfall for the top 517 east pilots!!! Let me hit that pipe you're smokin

WD.

Well Said WD!!

 

[Fast43]

Ok, God.

I'm sorry. You're right, I'm wrong. I should've asked you first since you know what EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD is thinking.


I suppose I did use too broad a stroke in that discription.

I should have said

Everybody in the World with the ability to reason could see AAA was at the end of its rope.

I'm sorry as it seems you don't have that ability I shouldn't have placed you in that group.


Soon you will figure out that not everybody can get the swingin deal you say your daddy got.

 

[Deadbug]

I would like to say equally Clearly
The arbitrator heard all about the east sides attrition at great length, read the transcripts and you will agree. However that attrition is not a factor since AAA would not have lasted long enough to realize any of it. i e their Career expectations in late may of 2005 were not very long. Many debate this but at the Arbitration the east merger committee was not able to bring real proof that AAA would have stood alone for very much longer. The east side guys dont seem to be able to stomach this. But it is this lack of career expectation that led to this result...

If that is all correct, the arbitrator would have just stapled all of east, including the top 517 under the bottom west guy . But he didn't--far from it.

As I've said before, I've been through four of these seniority list arbitrations and mergers...so many people attempt to speak with absolute authority on this topic, without the experience both in the industry and with mergers in general. I know it is a very emotional issue for those involved. Please reread my very first post on this topic.
DB

 

[Fast43]

If that is all correct, the arbitrator would have just stapled all of east, including the top 517 under the bottom west guy . But he didn't--far from it.

As I've said before, I've been through four of these seniority list arbitrations and mergers...so many people attempt to speak with absolute authority on this topic, without the experience both in the industry and with mergers in general. I know it is a very emotional issue for those involved. Please reread my very first post on this topic.
DB

Just because he gave the top 517 slots to east guys does not mean that they had career expectations that were any different than the rest. It was that AWA did not do this type of flying and so the arbitrator protected them for a period of time.

Stapling them would have been against policy as it would have been a windfall for us.

Their DOH method of intergration would have put over 2/3 of our guys on the bottom, windfall for them.

Since your an old hand at this. Does the east side always activate their Critical Incident Response team when they don't get there way in these things.

 

[AutoBus]

Since your an old hand at this. Does the east side always activate their Critical Incident Response team when they don't get there way in these things.

No, only when they can't recover thier careers at the expense of the AWA pilots.

Seriously, you guys really need to remove Jack before he does more damage. He is the one who insisted with the DOH approach (even though it is not alpa merger policy)

 

[Hpilot]

If that is all correct, the arbitrator would have just stapled all of east, including the top 517 under the bottom west guy . But he didn't--far from it.

DB

No he wouldn't have because we never asked for that. Although if you consider the East's absurd opening proposal we probably should have opened negotiations with a complete staple of the East. As it was we tried negotiating reasonably instead of emotionally. Most of the reasonable posts I've read aren't angry about where the furloughs were placed, but where the junior East FOs were positioned. All of this is a mute point though because the arbitration is binding. If the arbitrator had put the furloughs above me I would have been livid, but I would have accepted the path that had been taken. The ironic thing is it was the East that pushed us to arbitration in the first place because they wouldn't budge on anything.

 

[Deadbug]

Just because he gave the top 517 slots to east guys does not mean that they had career expectations that were any different than the rest. It was that AWA did not do this type of flying and so the arbitrator protected them for a period of time.
Stapling them would have been against policy as it would have been a windfall for us.
Their DOH method of intergration would have put over 2/3 of our guys on the bottom, windfall for them.
Since your an old hand at this. Does the east side always activate their Critical Incident Response team when they don't get there way in these things.

My point was to say that if you use the logic that the east's career expectations were nil...then the whole east list would've been way down the combined list, for example. And no, I just wasn't referring to the top 517. That 4-yr fence for the widebodies was meaningless--gone when age 60 goes.

For what its worth, I never felt straight DOH was reasonable unless there were tall fences and protections for all west side folks. Let me say for the record, I never felt straight DOH was going to happen. The whole idea there was primarily to protect the east's huge attritions due to mandatory-age retirement. We've all seen the math posted so many times on this board how the pilot demographics will be in the not-so-distant future.

As has been said many times on this board, a "successful" seniority list integration leaves (to an outside observer's viewpoint) both sides equally unhappy. And no, I can't recall any Critical Incident response teams being activated during past arbitration results--but then, with what we have been through in these recent years, I can certainly understand the reasoning. In the east there is universal line pilot agreement that this was not a fair (or equally unfair) award; that is the problem... There wasn't that feeling during our past mergers--I would always hear people moaning how much seniority they lost, yada yada...typical grumbling. But not this.
DB

 

[Deadbug]

No, only when they can't recover thier careers at the expense of the AWA pilots.

Seriously, you guys really need to remove Jack before he does more damage. He is the one who insisted with the DOH approach (even though it is not alpa merger policy)

In my opinion, nobody was trying to get anything at the west's expense; the east sees it as the other way around--as I've repeated in this thread many times: our huge age-related mandatory retirement attrition. Basically, an f/o on the east, due to the much older age, is now most likely to retire as an f/o. The typical west f/o, thanks to our retirements, no matter when they occur, not only will get to advance to the left seat, but will be very senior there when they retire.
DB