USAirways East losing respect.

[Green]

VNE,

Run both scenarios of TWA AA and USa AWA. With and without 9/11.

In BOTH cases the twa pilots make out far better than the USair pilots. So I guess if a neutral guy had screwed the TWA pilots more as has been shown appropriate, you would feel better about it?

The Key to a fair merger is in the fences. For all practical purposes there are none in this integration.

The APA was far more generous than the flight attendants.

Cheers
Wino

Are you kidding? AAA pilots got the top 500 slots and they were the AQUIRED airline. The most junior AWA pilot DAVe Odell was placed below every single active AAA pilot on the date of the merger anouncement. Not a single AAA captain is junior to an AWA fo (unless that fo is staying in the right seat for quality of life). Can all this be said of TWA? If the new Us Airways started fuloughing next month AWA pilots would be going to the street right along with AAA pilots. Did this happen at TWA?

Please man.....

 

[Green]

I'd just like to know how Nicolau obviously took career expectations into account when looking at the senior US Air pilots, but seemed to buy into the idea that anyone at the bottom of the US Air list had no expectations worth considering. The two positions can't co-exist logically.

It's a shame because it almost insures the complete ineffectiveness of ALPA on this property for the rest of time.

I think Nicolau's award demonstrates that he didn't believe AAA had valid career expectations. Hence the short 4 year fence. I think AWA could have argued for a Staple job (basically the same postion AAA took) and we would have arrived at the same place with a relative integration. Nobody has moved backwards in this award. Nobody. The only people who have benefited from this merger during the last two years have been east side pilots. New aircraft/increased european service all require money which AAA did not have untill AWA showed up. Another emergency loan from AWAC to meet payroll would not have provided the same growth opportunities. 9 A330's, roughly 3% of the fleet does NOT make for a windfall for AWA pilots.

Decertifying Alpa and rejecting a joint contract will do nothing but insure that AAA pilots remain at the bottom of the industry in terms of pay and working conditions. I'm sure there would be some satisfaction in watching AWA wither on the vine and stagnate but would it be worth an extra 50k per year and a decent schedule just to make a point? Will the AAA captains fall on their sword in order to let the junior AAA fo's move up the list quiker for 3-4 years? As for burning down the house what would 4000 unemployed airline pilots with an average age upwards of 50 do in the PHL/CLT area that would pay anywhere near 100k?

 

[FLYLOW22]

As for burning down the house what would 4000 unemployed airline pilots with an average age upwards of 50 do in the PHL/CLT area that would pay anywhere near 100k?

Walk away with dignity... and come to work at NetJets.

 

[Deadbug]

Slotting isn't the issue...IT'S THE EAST'S ATTRITION!!

First of all, I want to say that my fellow pilots I work with here on the "east" side are good people--and except for a few rare exceptions, not any different than any pilot I've ever associated with both in and out of the military.

As an unwilling participant myself through at least 4 mergers in my over 19 years with the airline...I hate to see the inevitable stereotypes being bandied around. I really hope now, that like past mergers, with time, they will diminish...if not go away.

Now, I want to say this very clearly:
Speaking from PRIOR MERGER EXPERIENCE: There will always be griping about an arbitrated seniority list. The problem with this arbitration is NOT with the idea of slotting--or even the so-called "relative seniority". The real problem is that the East's attrition--was not taken in to account in the award. It could have been taken care of either by fences (the simplest way), or by a different slotting for the ones impacted most--the lower third of the east's list.

If this one issue would've been addressed properly by the arbitrator, this would've been accepted pretty much like most other of our past arbitrations...with typical grumbling acceptance.
DB

 

[CRJammin]

USAir East you're a pathetic group of elitists. Whatever happens, you guys are the biggest pieces of dead weight on any of the airplanes.

:smash:

 

[Lear70]

Walk away with dignity... and come to work at NetJets.

Made me spit coffee out my nose...

However, Green has a point. There will only be a handful of people who will take it to the mat, but sometimes a vocal minority is just enough to screw up the whole d*mn thing for everyone.

Personally, I'd just take all my sick time, accrued vacation, spend it all while applying at Netjets when I was approaching the date where a West guy would be able to bump me out of my seat, hopefully benefiting from some type of retirement deal in the new contract (something is better than nothing), then leave for a NJA or another corporate gig.

I just don't get it.....

One airline buys another which is on the verge of death. Seems logical to me where the dying airline's pilots should go on the seniority list. It's kind of a no brainer in my mind.

Can you PROVE they were on the verge of death?

No one allows a major with that many leases to just shut down. Nearly destroyed some banks back in the day when EAL and PanAm did. Bankers are smarter than that.

No, I can't prove it. But neither can you. Which makes it a moot point for debating career expectations.

Lear70--I don't know where you got the idea that Piedmont got stapled. They got DOH. They were just pissed that USAir came in and trashed their nice, profitible airline. PSA pilots should be pissed, too for the same reason.

No, they didn't.

I remember this pretty clearly, because of a funny story with my Dad at the time.

Just after his 30th birthday Piedmont called my Dad for an interview, sent him to class, then the 2nd day of class while bidding for aircraft (by age) they said, "Oh wait, you've already turned 30". Turns out the app was processed before his birthday, then he went to class AFTER his birthday and the max age for a new-hire pilot was "not over the age of 29" (obviously pre age-discrimination). So they sent him home.

2 months later UAir hired him. 5 years later he's sitting as a DC-9 F/O when the Piedmont integration comes in. He came home with the new seniority list in his hand and partied all night - not because the Piedmont guys got screwed - but because they had sent him home and he ended up senior to the vast majority of them.

Within months he was a 737 CA a LONG time before he ever expected to get it. 10 years later he moved up to 757 CA. If memory serves, most of the ex-Piedmont guys are now F/O's. How many ex-Piedmont guys are still CA's? My dad would have been (hanging on to bottom 737 reserve CA in CLT).

Maybe many of the Piedmont guys did get DOH, but a LARGE NUMBER of them got stapled and bumped a lot of UAir guys up the list, dramatically improving their career expectations. Definitely a windfall. Wasn't fair for the Piedmont guys, and they spent YEARS making sure every UAir guy that came through CLT knew about it.

 

[metrolet]

Let's make sure we all understand something. AWA did not aquire AAA. AWA did not have the funds available to do that. The financing came from outside sources and was funnelled through AWA because they were not in bankrupcy at the time. However, had this merger not taken place, AWA would have found themselves in bankrupcy in the not to didtant future.

 

[JetMonkey]

Let's make sure we all understand something. AWA did not aquire AAA. AWA did not have the funds available to do that. The financing came from outside sources and was funnelled through AWA because they were not in bankrupcy at the time. However, had this merger not taken place, AWA would have found themselves in bankrupcy in the not to didtant future.

Uh huh, listening to Dougie too much on that one. And we all know how honest he is don't we. A company who was growing, hiring and in the BLACK would've gotten some sort of financing lined up (if needed) vs. a company in bankruptcy for the second time, no cash, and no restructuring plan filed with creditors. Yeah, sure.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Can you PROVE they were on the verge of death?



No, I can't prove it. But neither can you. Which makes it a moot point for debating career expectations.

.

Ok, I'll make it simpler.

Who bought who? Period.

 

[Lampshade]

Made me spit coffee out my nose...


Can you PROVE they were on the verge of death?

Talk to the US East payroll dept they're a few in Tempe now. They were not going to make payroll and checks were gonna bounce.

 

[AutoBus]

First of all, I want to say that my fellow pilots I work with here on the "east" side are good people--and except for a few rare exceptions, not any different than any pilot I've ever associated with both in and out of the military.

As an unwilling participant myself through at least 4 mergers in my over 19 years with the airline...I hate to see the inevitable stereotypes being bandied around. I really hope now, that like past mergers, with time, they will diminish...if not go away.

Now, I want to say this very clearly:
Speaking from PRIOR MERGER EXPERIENCE: There will always be griping about an arbitrated seniority list. The problem with this arbitration is NOT with the idea of slotting--or even the so-called "relative seniority". The real problem is that the East's attrition--was not taken in to account in the award. It could have been taken care of either by fences (the simplest way), or by a different slotting for the ones impacted most--the lower third of the east's list.

If this one issue would've been addressed properly by the arbitrator, this would've been accepted pretty much like most other of our past arbitrations...with typical grumbling acceptance.
DB

The trouble is you want to quantify attrition absolutely and you can't. Age 65 would change the attrition picture for years, is it coming? it's an unknown at this time, another 9-11 and you have attrition in a completely different direction, another unknown. Under your wish list the east would have all the protection and the west would take all the risk. Sounds fair?

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Who bought Who??

Ok, I'll make it simpler.

Who bought who? Period.

That's very simple, and the facts show it.

Neither one 'bought' the other. Outside investors put up about $1.6B+ in capital to combine both operations under one corporate structure. They did this because they saw 'value' in combining two operators who were 'regional' players, that 'both' needed a 'nationwide' route structure. As was pointed out by many; both airlines were in the same position, 'strategically' and would have suffered in the future trying to grow against 'restructured' (larger) legacy carriers with a truly 'national' route structure.

And, personally, that is where I believe the arbritator when wrong in even attempting to make 'guesses' or predictions of what would have happened to either carrier. The 'failing carrier' issue was brought up in the FedEX/Flying Tiger merger, stating that Flying Tigers, "needed this merger to survive" and that issue was dismissed as NOT revelent.

But, sorry to confuse people on here with the 'facts' Now continue to 'rant' away.

DA

P.S. and the thought that AWA was in a 'financial position' to raise $1.6B in capital on their own, as a previous post states, is "laughable" at the very least and NOT supported by 'financial fact' at the most. Again, sorry to rely on facts.

 

[Green]

That's very simple, and the facts show it.

Neither one 'bought' the other. Outside investors put up about $1.6B+ in capital to combine both operations under one corporate structure. They did this because they saw 'value' in combining two operators who were 'regional' players, that 'both' needed a 'nationwide' route structure. As was pointed out by many; both airlines were in the same position, 'strategically' and would have suffered in the future trying to grow against 'restructured' (larger) legacy carriers with a truly 'national' route structure.

And, personally, that is where I believe the arbritator when wrong in even attempting to make 'guesses' or predictions of what would have happened to either carrier. The 'failing carrier' issue was brought up in the FedEX/Flying Tiger merger, stating that Flying Tigers, "needed this merger to survive" and that issue was dismissed as NOT revelent.

But, sorry to confuse people on here with the 'facts' Now continue to 'rant' away.

DA

P.S. and the thought that AWA was in a 'financial position' to raise $1.6B in capital on their own, as a previous post states, is "laughable" at the very least and NOT supported by 'financial fact' at the most. Again, sorry to rely on facts.

are you trying to re-argue the case here? The DECIDING factor is who has controlling interest in the new company. AWA was allocated a MUCH larger portion of ownership in the new US Airways, so yes we bought you. We basically achieved a controlling interest in US Airways. Just like when you purchase a house you don't put all the cash down on the table but you still own the house.

You guys/gals have a tough pill to swallow but absolutely NOBODY moved backwards on the U side!!! You're like a bunch of kids who lost on the playground and now you're going to take your balls and go home. Pretty lame.....Might as well ruin 50000 jobs or so because you're bitter. How commendable.

 

[Green]

Made me spit coffee out my nose...


Personally, I'd just take all my sick time, accrued vacation, spend it all while applying at Netjets when I was approaching the date where a West guy would be able to bump me out of my seat, hopefully benefiting from some type of retirement deal in the new contract (something is better than nothing), then leave for a NJA or another corporate gig.



I remember this pretty clearly, because of a funny story with my Dad at the time.

Just after his 30th birthday Piedmont called my Dad for an interview, sent him to class, then the 2nd day of class while bidding for aircraft (by age) they said, "Oh wait, you've already turned 30". Turns out the app was processed before his birthday, then he went to class AFTER his birthday and the max age for a new-hire pilot was "not over the age of 29" (obviously pre age-discrimination). So they sent him home.

2 months later UAir hired him. 5 years later he's sitting as a DC-9 F/O when the Piedmont integration comes in. He came home with the new seniority list in his hand and partied all night - not because the Piedmont guys got screwed - but because they had sent him home and he ended up senior to the vast majority of them.

Within months he was a 737 CA a LONG time before he ever expected to get it. 10 years later he moved up to 757 CA. If memory serves, most of the ex-Piedmont guys are now F/O's. How many ex-Piedmont guys are still CA's? My dad would have been (hanging on to bottom 737 reserve CA in CLT).

Maybe many of the Piedmont guys did get DOH, but a LARGE NUMBER of them got stapled and bumped a lot of UAir guys up the list, dramatically improving their career expectations. Definitely a windfall. Wasn't fair for the Piedmont guys, and they spent YEARS making sure every UAir guy that came through CLT knew about it.

That's the whole point though is that West guys Will NEVER bump an East pilot out of his/her seat. Yet they scream about this "Travesty" that has occurred and activate the critical incident response team and emergency phone numbers to call and talk. WTFO?

With the Piedmont merger I wonder if the Piedmont pilots fought to de-certify alpa and burn the airline to the ground to prevent the 'atrocity' from being implemented. THere is a very strong smell of sour grapes here, which seems strange coming from such a mature pilot group. Maybe Us AIr is used to screwing everyone they merge with and the turn of events are difficult to swallow.

 

[Deadbug]

The trouble is you want to quantify attrition absolutely and you can't. Age 65 would change the attrition picture for years, is it coming? it's an unknown at this time, another 9-11 and you have attrition in a completely different direction, another unknown. Under your wish list the east would have all the protection and the west would take all the risk. Sounds fair?

I respectfully disagree: Yes you can--the east's age 60 (or age 65 if it changes) attrition is absolutely quantifiable and known. Those 200+ per year attrition slots were age-related (whether it be 60 or 65) and will happen.