USAirways East losing respect.

[DiverDriver]

Oh don't even get me started on that debate. I had a dog in that fight a while ago too. Just remember I voted no yrs ago. What was the quote? "we need to take concession to save UAL. UAL never saw a dime AWAC management got millions in cuts on the backs of their pilots that never went to UAL.

WD.

Aparently, you still have a dog in that fight Trick Daddy. You're right. Millions went to AWAC which then bridged USAir to prevent liquidation so that you could come save the day. It was not an insignificant deal. And you know where that money came from. So when will the AWAC pilot list be incorporated into this? I mean, you want to be fair and everything. Right TD ?

I guess I just don't understand the hostility right now. Didn't you get what you want from the mediation? Why the new thread to slam AAA?






....and no, I don't really believe AWAC pilots are going on the USAir list.

 

[stlflyguy]

Got no dog in this fight so I don't really care, but I read this carefully and this was the screw job of the century for Usair guys.

Sorry, but this neutral person says the cactus pilots got an unbelievable windfall. Beyond belief, and far worse than what was done to the TWA pilots.

This award was fair if there were more fences, but with that puny temporary fence every awa pilots should thank their lucky stars. They won the lottery, and should just shut up and cash the check.

If (9/11 had happened after this merger there would be no usair pilots left on the property in 24 months or so, and certainly no fenced off ghetto like the TWA guys got)

Cheers
Wino

Well, at least his name is accurate....

stlflyguy
(former TWA)

 

[FDJ2]

This award was fair if there were more fences, but with that puny temporary fence every awa pilots should thank their lucky stars. They won the lottery, and should just shut up and cash the check.

I agree that the west guys ought to quiet down and let the east guys vent a little, since the east's argument for DOH or Length of Service was rightfully shot down. No one brings their "DOH" to a "SENIORITY LIST" integration, they bring their seniority number and what that seniority number can hold. Generally speaking a merger that maintains a pilots relative seniority makes sense, however, I do agree that higher fences may have been appropriate in this case in order to protect the expectations associated with the greater number of retirements from the east. Just so long as it is understood that high fences can also be a two edged sword if you find yourself on the wrong side of the fence when or if the company decides to downsize your base or equipment.

 

[Lear70]

I agree that the west guys ought to quiet down and let the east guys vent a little, since the east's argument for DOH or Length of Service was rightfully shot down. No one brings their "DOH" to a "SENIORITY LIST" integration, they bring their seniority number and what that seniority number can hold. Generally speaking a merger that maintains a pilots relative seniority makes sense, however, I do agree that higher fences may have been appropriate in this case in order to protect the expectations associated with the greater number of retirements from the east. Just so long as it is understood that high fences can also be a two edged sword if you find yourself on the wrong side of the fence when or if the company decides to downsize your base or equipment.

I have no dog in this fight either - my old man retired UAir about 3 years ago.

That said, what FD said above is absolutely correct.

The UAir East boys got their butt handed to them on some small but VERY important details. If I were a betting man (I am), I'd say they got a little too pushy, someone important took offense to it, and voila'...

Incidentally, I don't believe a decert would hold any weight at this point in the game. Might have just before the ruling, but when run through in appeals court, I think it's a loser, as it's an obvious ploy to bypass a legitimate third party ruling that was REQUESTED. Any judge worth his salt will be seeing right through that one...

Time to suck it up, make what you can out of it, then find a cushy expat gig and leave the country. If I were in my mid-50's facing 2 years of 767CA then possibly getting booted, I'd take early retirement while still under 60 and head east to one of those DEC jobs that pays nice and enjoy the travel.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

I have no dog in this fight either - my old man retired UAir about 3 years ago.

That said, what FD said above is absolutely correct.

The UAir East boys got their butt handed to them on some small but VERY important details. If I were a betting man (I am), I'd say they got a little too pushy, someone important took offense to it, and voila'...

Incidentally, I don't believe a decert would hold any weight at this point in the game. Might have just before the ruling, but when run through in appeals court, I think it's a loser, as it's an obvious ploy to bypass a legitimate third party ruling that was REQUESTED. Any judge worth his salt will be seeing right through that one...

Time to suck it up, make what you can out of it, then find a cushy expat gig and leave the country. If I were in my mid-50's facing 2 years of 767CA then possibly getting booted, I'd take early retirement while still under 60 and head east to one of those DEC jobs that pays nice and enjoy the travel.

Well, like I said on the other thread; this ruling just pretty much 'guarantees' that the two carriers will Never be integrated, as the new combined list only means something if there is a 'joint contract' and the two operations are integrated, Right. And, now there is pretty much NO incentive for the East guys to ever sign on for a new contract. Without a joint contract/integration, then the East retirements are replaced by east guys, upgrades or furloughees. And, if this goes on for about 6-8 yrs, isn't that pretty much like the 'base fences' that you would normally see in an arbitritor's ruling??

Just for what's it worth. And, Lear, I hope that your integration with MDX goes better than this one.

DA

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Aparently, you still have a dog in that fight Trick Daddy. You're right. Millions went to AWAC which then bridged USAir to prevent liquidation so that you could come save the day. It was not an insignificant deal. And you know where that money came from. So when will the AWAC pilot list be incorporated into this? I mean, you want to be fair and everything. Right TD ?

I guess I just don't understand the hostility right now. Didn't you get what you want from the mediation? Why the new thread to slam AAA?

....and no, I don't really believe AWAC pilots are going on the USAir list.

What up C? The hostiility comes from that fact that when mediation came around during the BOD they refused to be the least bit fair. So enter arbitration and the result remaind the same. I had to listen to them tell me/us that the seniority integration was going to be what it was and we were all going to have to live with it. Now it's them that don't want to live with it.

Now did AWAC work out a deal for list incorporation?? If so then I have no beef. Now as for a slam on AAA, live thru what we have with them then ask that same question.

WD

 

[feitinger]

Oh don't even get me started on that debate. I had a dog in that fight a while ago too. Just remember I voted no yrs ago. What was the quote? "we need to take concession to save UAL. UAL never saw a dime AWAC management got millions in cuts on the backs of their pilots that never went to UAL.

WD.

To be determined in July!!!:uzi:

 

[rtmcfi]

To be determined in July!!!:uzi:

July of what? 2010??

 

[DiverDriver]

What up C? The hostiility comes from that fact that when mediation came around during the BOD they refused to be the least bit fair. So enter arbitration and the result remaind the same. I had to listen to them tell me/us that the seniority integration was going to be what it was and we were all going to have to live with it. Now it's them that don't want to live with it.

Now did AWAC work out a deal for list incorporation?? If so then I have no beef. Now as for a slam on AAA, live thru what we have with them then ask that same question.

WD

Hey TD , AWAC invested in AAA before you guys did and we have a seat on the BOD there still after all the stock that was sold. Since that money came from the pilots shouldn't that mean we get in before AWA pilots? I mean, it's only fair right? Our money came before your money to save the day.

All this was being discussed on the other thread. Why the new thread? Didn't think your post would get much attention?

And TD , I am living through it. I was forced out of my base to this crappy one in PHL. I used to drive to work and now I commute off line two legs.

 

[DiverDriver]

July of what? 2010??

Probably. This is going to get drug out. This is only a hearing in July on the arbitration. No determination will be made I'm sure of it. There will be a hearing. Then they'll want to submit briefs. Etc. Etc. I expect nothing before 2008. ...if even then.


WARNING: Thread hijack in progress. Hi TD!! <waves>

 

[Vne]

and far worse than what was done to the TWA pilots.

Wino your an idiot. AAA/ AWA was submitted to a NEUTRAL.He made his decision for better or worse.
TWA got the APA version of far and equitable ,BIG DIFFERENCE and much worse.

 

[Carl S.]

I would guess that the top 517 and 1000 behind them at AAA will vote yes on anything than LOA 93 till 12/09+++ because they came out ahead. Will a T/A get out, we'll see the offer on 5/09/07. After two no votes on either side, expect Prater to combine the MEC's and get a straight vote and see where that goes. One Certificate by the fall for sure, one list today and one contract, who knows, those are the facts!

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Hey TD , AWAC invested in AAA before you guys did and we have a seat on the BOD there still after all the stock that was sold. Since that money came from the pilots shouldn't that mean we get in before AWA pilots? I mean, it's only fair right? Our money came before your money to save the day.

All this was being discussed on the other thread. Why the new thread? Didn't think your post would get much attention?

And TD , I am living through it. I was forced out of my base to this crappy one in PHL. I used to drive to work and now I commute off line two legs.

When you say "we have a seat on the BOD" to whom are you refering?? The AWAC pilot group or eastshore??

This particular subject was not being discussed on the other thread. The whinning to ALPA national about some preceived injustice (their realitive positions never changed) is what this thread was about. There are things that went on during this process that many don't know. We (the AWA pilot group) were treated with total disrespect since day one. They smiled in our faces telling us all along that "it's in the arbitrator's hands now and we will all have to live with it"!! So no you are not living thru that. You are not living thru the constant disrespect or the resolutions that state "regardless of the AWA MEC's position this is what you will do ALPA national"!!! When you have been dissed like that call me bro then we will really have something to converse about...

Now as for joining the list, that group is really big on reminding you of what you brought to the dance. Since you only brought RJ's then you never had any expectation of flying anything larger hence the fence around the widebody a/c.

The commute thing, I remember that all too well!! I was sitting pretty well in DEN with weekends off then almost overnight I was in ORD every trip hitting points east.

Will this mean that you will give me access back on your web board

WD.

 

[DiverDriver]

When you say "we have a seat on the BOD" to whom are you refering?? The AWAC pilot group or eastshore??

<snip>

Will this mean that you will give me access back on your web board


WD.

Oh Trick Daddy . Thanks for "putting me in my place". You see, there is always another view on every topic.

And you're not on the ban list for AirWilly so I haven't taken anything away from you. Why would you imply that?

 

[Wino]

VNE,

Run both scenarios of TWA AA and USa AWA. With and without 9/11.

In BOTH cases the twa pilots make out far better than the USair pilots. So I guess if a neutral guy had screwed the TWA pilots more as has been shown appropriate, you would feel better about it?

The Key to a fair merger is in the fences. For all practical purposes there are none in this integration.

The APA was far more generous than the flight attendants.

Cheers
Wino

 

[steveg]

OK, I've stayed silent but that last post is just plain wrong. If the TWA pilots got the deal USAir did, there would be at least 1000 more TWA pilots at AA today. I think any TWA pilot would've taken relative seniority in a heart beat. You clearly are talking about things you do not know about. The USAir furloughess at the bottom of the list were not stapled. They are not active employees, they do not have jobs at USAir. If they come back, it will be at the bottom of the list, just like before.

The east guys were looking to be made whole after the bad things that have happened in their career. Completely understandable. The problem is, they wanted it at the expense of the west pilots. By the way, the east guys are not the only ones in this industry that have had a bad time. In fact most of us have. I've never heard one single USAir pilot have an ounce of sympathy for anyone else in this profession. I've never heard anything but complaining about how bad they have had it. Open your eyes and look around, a lot of people have had bad times.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Oh Trick Daddy . Thanks for "putting me in my place". You see, there is always another view on every topic.

And you're not on the ban list for AirWilly so I haven't taken anything away from you. Why would you imply that?

Oops, certainly wasn't my intention to put anyone in anyplace and I apologize if I gave that impression.

I thought after our last exchange on the forum that you did but truth be told I never tried log on again and after I got rid of my last desktop I lost the login and password.

WD.

 

[TWA Dude]

So I guess if a neutral guy had screwed the TWA pilots more as has been shown appropriate, you would feel better about it?

Nobody likes to lose but we take comfort in knowing the game is played fairly.

 

[Lear70]

The east guys were looking to be made whole after the bad things that have happened in their career. Completely understandable. The problem is, they wanted it at the expense of the west pilots. By the way, the east guys are not the only ones in this industry that have had a bad time. In fact most of us have.

So let me get this straight...

You somehow think that the furloughed UAir guys should go BENEATH the 20-something that has 30+ years still left?

And that's fair HOW?

If you were a UAir guy you would be thinking the same thing...

Additionally, I fail to see how FENCES would hurt the AWA pilots. They'd still have jobs. They'd still move up the list as AWA guys retired and/or new aircraft were purchased and delivered.

The more and more I hear AWA pilots weigh in with their belief this was somehow FAIR?? the more I believe UAir guys should drag the fight out as long as they can, appeal it as far as it can be appealed, and dump ALPA in favor of teamsters (won't work long-term but will keep it tied up another year or two). Basically it gives them an artificial fence that the arbitrator SHOULD have put in place.

If they can get an extra 3-5 years out of it in their current seats, then good for them, especially with the ME-ME-ME attitude going on in the West (not all of you, but enough to p*ss me off and I don't even work there).

I've never heard one single USAir pilot have an ounce of sympathy for anyone else in this profession. I've never heard anything but complaining about how bad they have had it. Open your eyes and look around, a lot of people have had bad times.

I think that's a bit of an extreme statement to make, don't you? No need to exaggerate... We have plenty of ex-UAir guys here at AAI and they're very aware of the crap the entire industry has been faced with.

I'm not saying the UAir negotiators acted appropriately 100% of the time, but it's extremely biased towards AWA, and the best thing the AWA pilots could do is keep their mouth shut about it. Gloating will only stir the ant hill and makes the entire group look like an a*s.

 

[Heavy Set]

It seems to me this was a percentage type merger. If you were in the bottom 20 percent at Usair, you were placed in the bottom 20 percent of the new merged company I guess, regardless of doh. In reality, that seems fair since Usair was probably going to liquidate anyway.