USAirways East losing respect.

[Lear70]

Lear,

You're idea of fair is my career being depressed as recognition/payback for another group of pilots who've drawn a bad hand for a long time (unfortunate to be sure). I think they call that the "cooler" in poker.

So, let me get this straight. Seriously.

AWA was growing (slowly) and losing guys to age 60 (slowly) and pilots were still being hired and upgrading.

A fence to ensure BOTH sides continued to move at the same rate they would have pre-merger AND allow AWA pilots to take all new aircraft order slots would have been "depressing" your career exactly HOW?

In that scenario, AWA pilots would have continued to move up the list, albeit slowly. Now you get a super-charged seniority move you would NEVER have seen without the merger. Again, that's fair HOW?

When you spout off about 7-8 yr base fences, you conveniently ignore what's happened in the last two years in the West and what would continue if that were the case. West would stagnate and that 2005 hire would stay on the bottom out here for years. If the merger hadn't happened, that person would have a 20-30% buffer below them already and would have been a captain by the end of the fence expirations.

Wait a second, come again?

"If the merger hadn't happened, that person would have a 20-30% buffer below them already..."

"...what would continue if that (fences) were the case. West would stagnate and that 2005 hire would stay on the bottom out here for years."

OK, which is it? If you were to fence people into their own sides, then let the West continue as if the merger hadn't happened, there would be movement,,, BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION AT THE END OF THAT PARAGRAPH.

So basically, you want it your way and want it to benifit your people. I can't hold that against you, especially now that we live in a "me first, me always" culture...BUT, to claim that would be fair is laughable. This is what is most offending to the West, because from the beginning we have never stood on a hardline position. Relative integration and active-active slotting has been our mantra from day one.

You're absolutely right, we live in a "me first, me always" culture, and you just personified it.

Again, I work for AirTran. I never worked for UAir. My dad is retired UAir (has been for a while), and I don't know anyone there anymore. I don't have an agenda and don't "want it my way" or "to benEfit my people".

YOUR claim that this is somehow fair is so ludicrous as to be laughable. That is what is so offending to everyone else looking in on this deal. EVERY USAir pilot who will be there longer than 5 years just TOOK IT UP THE A*S, and you know it.

Look, the America West reality is that our group has been against this from the beginning. This was handed to us as well....no one asked what we wanted. This is proving to be a labor disastor of historic proportions and we all saw it coming (east and west)...it seems the only ones who left it out of their assumptions were Doug and team.

The disastEr is just beginning. As the integration continues, expect a huge number of sick calls, medical leaves (WITH pay, costing the company millions), work slowdowns, a general lack of giving a sh*t, and general hostility from the UAir pilots.

It happened with UAir/Piedmont, it will happen again here.

Like I said, this is NOT the fault of the AWA pilots, but to claim that this is fair, by any sense of the term, will only p*ss off the UAir guys even more.

Like I said, better just to STFU.

I've said it before...I DO empathize greatly with the path the junior East have had to walk. We all have to bite the $hit sandwich at some point, but no one should be forced to eat it for dinner.

But that's what the UAir guys get to do.

The fact that actives got slotted with actives IS fair.

It's not the active slotting that's offensive. It's the ratio that people were slotted and the lack of fences that will artificially depress the careers of everyone in the East.

The history behind how and where people were on their lists pre-merger...well that's where I see things being unfair. Regardless, the East reality is not the fault of the West and no apology is owed or will be given.

They're not asking for an apology, but gloating certainly doesn't help, and that's EXACTLY what it looks like when guys come out of the wood work saying how "fair" this whole deal was.

 

[BeCareful!]

I think the senior East positions had less to do with "career expectations" than they did a representation of the "premium" flying that the East brought to the table. Those 5xx positions are simply the # of CA & FO positions required to staff the A330's and B767's.

In short, I don't think there were two sets of expectations he recognized...if anything it was one set that was in danger pre-merger, but also had a premium portion un-expected by the West.

If you read the entire award, you can get a sense of what I'm talking about. Nicalau did a good enough job of articulating it. From an emotional standpoint, though, I definitely see how it looks like two sets of expectations given different weight, but that's not how it went down.

As Lear70 just pointed out, you have a way of speaking from both sides of your mouth. Not to worry, it's something that many of your AWA co-workers seem to be afflicted with.

"if anything it was one set that was in danger pre-merger, but also had a premium portion un-expected by the West."

What?!? How can an expectation that was "in danger" be premium? Oh, it was in danger pre-merger, right, but not after? So, senior U pilots had their post-merger expectations protected while junior U pilots got shafted with their pre-merger expectations?

Inasmuch as the above makes no sense whatsoever, I ask again, why were some pilot expectations accounted for and others not?

 

[Fast43]

ALPA merger policy says that one group won't get a windfall at the expense of another group.

By leaving out the fences that is EXACTLY what happened. The America West seniority list was a stagnant list with almost no retirement. The USAIR list was going to turn over very quickly. Although furloughed the more junior USair people had that going for them. That was STOLEN by the arbitrator and the west pilots. The USair pilots even furloughed had a career expectation of a rapidly approaching upgrade, not something that junior America west pilots had. Now they do because they got to take it from the USair pilots.

USAir was not days from shutting down. Big airlines don't shut down anymore because they don't own the fleets. The leasing companies will never allow it. Its not just the 250 aircraft that are at the airline in question that would be devalued by such an action but the other 1000s of aircraft that they have placed with other airlines.

West got a BIG windfall, and East got a screw job. A tremendous one. No fences = unfair merger.

Cheers
Wino

Furloughed guys rapidly approaching upgrade...........put down your box of wine and sober up and catch up on the facts.


The east merger committee was not able to prove anything of the sort if they had it would be in line with proving Big Foot is real. The furloughed guys were placed where they are because they didn't bring an active job to the "merging of jobs" and the Arbitrator held the belief that it is because the merger that they were able to return at all.

Its a tough concept for some evidently but clear none the less

DOH is not anywhere in the Merger policy

and

Time in service is also not to be found.


I you want to know how rational and willing to negotiate these guys were check this out. It was set up early in the merger

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/Merger/

If you bang your head against the wall hard enough..........it will bleed!!!

 

[capt. megadeth]

I just don't get it.....

One airline buys another which is on the verge of death. Seems logical to me where the dying airline's pilots should go on the seniority list. It's kind of a no brainer in my mind.

 

[AA717driver]

You CANNOT use the "failing carrier" theme when integrating a seniority list. AWA and AirTran were both in lousy shape in 2000. Guess what? They survived.

USAir was in lousy shape--they weren't out of business.

There should have been longer fences in the East.

Lear70--I don't know where you got the idea that Piedmont got stapled. They got DOH. They were just pissed that USAir came in and trashed their nice, profitible airline. PSA pilots should be pissed, too for the same reason.

This integration was going to suck for someone. As it stands, it greatly benefits the acquiring carrier. WOW! Never seen that before...

AWA guys had better hope that the "Easties" get over it and don't drag down the whole operation (not that anyone would notice given USAir East's performance over the last decade...).

Good luck to my friends on both coasts. TC

 

[Green]

VNE,

Run both scenarios of TWA AA and USa AWA. With and without 9/11.

In BOTH cases the twa pilots make out far better than the USair pilots. So I guess if a neutral guy had screwed the TWA pilots more as has been shown appropriate, you would feel better about it?

The Key to a fair merger is in the fences. For all practical purposes there are none in this integration.

The APA was far more generous than the flight attendants.

Cheers
Wino

Are you kidding? AAA pilots got the top 500 slots and they were the AQUIRED airline. The most junior AWA pilot DAVe Odell was placed below every single active AAA pilot on the date of the merger anouncement. Not a single AAA captain is junior to an AWA fo (unless that fo is staying in the right seat for quality of life). Can all this be said of TWA? If the new Us Airways started fuloughing next month AWA pilots would be going to the street right along with AAA pilots. Did this happen at TWA?

Please man.....

 

[Green]

I'd just like to know how Nicolau obviously took career expectations into account when looking at the senior US Air pilots, but seemed to buy into the idea that anyone at the bottom of the US Air list had no expectations worth considering. The two positions can't co-exist logically.

It's a shame because it almost insures the complete ineffectiveness of ALPA on this property for the rest of time.

I think Nicolau's award demonstrates that he didn't believe AAA had valid career expectations. Hence the short 4 year fence. I think AWA could have argued for a Staple job (basically the same postion AAA took) and we would have arrived at the same place with a relative integration. Nobody has moved backwards in this award. Nobody. The only people who have benefited from this merger during the last two years have been east side pilots. New aircraft/increased european service all require money which AAA did not have untill AWA showed up. Another emergency loan from AWAC to meet payroll would not have provided the same growth opportunities. 9 A330's, roughly 3% of the fleet does NOT make for a windfall for AWA pilots.

Decertifying Alpa and rejecting a joint contract will do nothing but insure that AAA pilots remain at the bottom of the industry in terms of pay and working conditions. I'm sure there would be some satisfaction in watching AWA wither on the vine and stagnate but would it be worth an extra 50k per year and a decent schedule just to make a point? Will the AAA captains fall on their sword in order to let the junior AAA fo's move up the list quiker for 3-4 years? As for burning down the house what would 4000 unemployed airline pilots with an average age upwards of 50 do in the PHL/CLT area that would pay anywhere near 100k?

 

[FLYLOW22]

As for burning down the house what would 4000 unemployed airline pilots with an average age upwards of 50 do in the PHL/CLT area that would pay anywhere near 100k?

Walk away with dignity... and come to work at NetJets.

 

[Deadbug]

Slotting isn't the issue...IT'S THE EAST'S ATTRITION!!

First of all, I want to say that my fellow pilots I work with here on the "east" side are good people--and except for a few rare exceptions, not any different than any pilot I've ever associated with both in and out of the military.

As an unwilling participant myself through at least 4 mergers in my over 19 years with the airline...I hate to see the inevitable stereotypes being bandied around. I really hope now, that like past mergers, with time, they will diminish...if not go away.

Now, I want to say this very clearly:
Speaking from PRIOR MERGER EXPERIENCE: There will always be griping about an arbitrated seniority list. The problem with this arbitration is NOT with the idea of slotting--or even the so-called "relative seniority". The real problem is that the East's attrition--was not taken in to account in the award. It could have been taken care of either by fences (the simplest way), or by a different slotting for the ones impacted most--the lower third of the east's list.

If this one issue would've been addressed properly by the arbitrator, this would've been accepted pretty much like most other of our past arbitrations...with typical grumbling acceptance.
DB

 

[CRJammin]

USAir East you're a pathetic group of elitists. Whatever happens, you guys are the biggest pieces of dead weight on any of the airplanes.

:smash: