USAirways East losing respect.

[AutoBus]

I respectfully disagree: Yes you can--the east's age 60 (or age 65 if it changes) attrition is absolutely quantifiable and known. Those 200+ per year attrition slots were age-related (whether it be 60 or 65) and will happen.

And still account for all the variables that affect the industry, I doubt it. Anyway you got the top 517 spots and a fence, sounds to me like you got some protection.

Your MEC chairman with his stuborne call for DOH and nothing less tried to go for the whole Enchilada and lost! perhaps a more reasonable position might have kept it out of the arbitrators hands.

 

[NCFlyer]

Your MEC chairman with his stubborn call for DOH and nothing less tried to go for the whole Enchilada and lost! perhaps a more reasonable position might have kept it out of the arbitrators hands.

Hind sight is 20/20 so they say.

Something as vitally important as seniority integration should have been dealt with and kept out of a 3rd party's hands. Once it left the control of the 2 MECs there was nothing but educated guessing as to what the outcome might be.

However, I'm not sure that you can use the word reasonable any time you are dealing with the AAA MEC.

 

[Itsallsogood]

Talk to the US East payroll dept they're a few in Tempe now. They were not going to make payroll and checks were gonna bounce.

Somehow it is now out. AWA paid the payroll for the East for two weeks prior to the anouncement. East owes West. BIG time.

 

[Deadbug]

And still account for all the variables that affect the industry, I doubt it. Anyway you got the top 517 spots and a fence, sounds to me like you got some protection....

That's the thing about the age-60/65 related attrition due to retirements. In good/stagnant times it is advancement...in bad times it equates to protection from furlough. In any event those attritions due to mandatory retirement belonged to the east, and should have been factored in.
With regards to fences, there was only one fence--the 4-yr widebody--and that remains only if the age-60 policy stays in place.
I know I can't change anybody's opinion--it's all perspective, but please re-read my original post.
DB

 

[Fast43]

Now, I want to say this very clearly:
Speaking from PRIOR MERGER EXPERIENCE: There will always be griping about an arbitrated seniority list. The problem with this arbitration is NOT with the idea of slotting--or even the so-called "relative seniority". The real problem is that the East's attrition--was not taken in to account in the award. It could have been taken care of either by fences (the simplest way), or by a different slotting for the ones impacted most--the lower third of the east's list.

If this one issue would've been addressed properly by the arbitrator, this would've been accepted pretty much like most other of our past arbitrations...with typical grumbling acceptance.
DB

I would like to say equally Clearly
The arbitrator heard all about the east sides attrition at great length, read the transcripts and you will agree. However that attrition is not a factor since AAA would not have lasted long enough to realize any of it. i e their Career expectations in late may of 2005 were not very long. Many debate this but at the Arbitration the east merger committee was not able to bring real proof that AAA would have stood alone for very much longer. The east side guys dont seem to be able to stomach this. But it is this lack of career expectation that led to this result. The Arbitrator stated clearly that the furloughed pilots came back BECAUSE of the merger. by the way if they did come back without the merger, it would have been to the bottom also.

If your an east guy maybe you can tell me why the merger committee spent more than one minute trying to get 104 guys on to the merged list that had never been hired by or flown a Mainline jet for AAA. They were nowhere to be found on your list until the Merger was announced.

Seems to me that the energy spent on this unbelievable premise could have been better spent.

 

[Fast43]

Made me spit coffee out my nose...

However, Green has a point. There will only be a handful of people who will take it to the mat, but sometimes a vocal minority is just enough to screw up the whole d*mn thing for everyone.

Personally, I'd just take all my sick time, accrued vacation, spend it all while applying at Netjets when I was approaching the date where a West guy would be able to bump me out of my seat, hopefully benefiting from some type of retirement deal in the new contract (something is better than nothing), then leave for a NJA or another corporate gig.

Can you PROVE they were on the verge of death?

No one allows a major with that many leases to just shut down. Nearly destroyed some banks back in the day when EAL and PanAm did. Bankers are smarter than that.

No, I can't prove it. But neither can you. Which makes it a moot point for debating career expectations.

No, they didn't.

I remember this pretty clearly, because of a funny story with my Dad at the time.

Just after his 30th birthday Piedmont called my Dad for an interview, sent him to class, then the 2nd day of class while bidding for aircraft (by age) they said, "Oh wait, you've already turned 30". Turns out the app was processed before his birthday, then he went to class AFTER his birthday and the max age for a new-hire pilot was "not over the age of 29" (obviously pre age-discrimination). So they sent him home.

2 months later UAir hired him. 5 years later he's sitting as a DC-9 F/O when the Piedmont integration comes in. He came home with the new seniority list in his hand and partied all night - not because the Piedmont guys got screwed - but because they had sent him home and he ended up senior to the vast majority of them.

Within months he was a 737 CA a LONG time before he ever expected to get it. 10 years later he moved up to 757 CA. If memory serves, most of the ex-Piedmont guys are now F/O's. How many ex-Piedmont guys are still CA's? My dad would have been (hanging on to bottom 737 reserve CA in CLT).

Maybe many of the Piedmont guys did get DOH, but a LARGE NUMBER of them got stapled and bumped a lot of UAir guys up the list, dramatically improving their career expectations. Definitely a windfall. Wasn't fair for the Piedmont guys, and they spent YEARS making sure every UAir guy that came through CLT knew about it.

Lear 70 you need to review the current merger policy.

Maintain Career expectations is one of the directives.

Career expectations were indeed hotly debated and in everybody in the worlds view but most importantly the Arbitrators view was that AAA had reached the the end of its road. Hence not a very good career expectation.

why is this so hard of concept to grasp??

 

[Fast43]

Let's make sure we all understand something. AWA did not aquire AAA. AWA did not have the funds available to do that. The financing came from outside sources and was funnelled through AWA because they were not in bankrupcy at the time. However, had this merger not taken place, AWA would have found themselves in bankrupcy in the not to didtant future.

Wrong

Please educate yourself better on the particulars!!

 

[Lear70]

Career expectations were indeed hotly debated and in everybody in the worlds view but most importantly the Arbitrators view was that AAA had reached the the end of its road. Hence not a very good career expectation.

why is this so hard of concept to grasp??

Ok, God.

I'm sorry. You're right, I'm wrong. I should've asked you first since you know what EVERYBODY IN THE WORLD is thinking.

Guess the people on here who disagree with you don't know what they're thinking, either.

Get it yet, Einstein? You're speaking in absolutes and you can't every speak to know what everyone else is thinking, just to satisfy your own viewpoints.

People like you really p*ss me off.

I'm done with this thread. I've also lost a LOT of respect for the AWA pilots on this board.

No one wants to use the FACTS behind the situation, they simply want to use what they "feel" or "believe" would have happened.

The FACTS are that UAir was an operating company. No one's payroll had bounced. No PROOF exists that it would have. If you have access to the bank account statements of UAir on the day prior to the MERGER, feel free to post a link.

That's what I thought.

I'm glad I don't live anywhere near a UAir or AWA domicile and never have to jumpseat on you guys.

uke:

You're right, I'm wrong, I'm done.

unsubscribed from thread for lack of intelligent debate and pointless waste of my time.

 

[PositiveRate]

Sorry Lear, US Airways was going out of business. As well, Fast 43 made two excellent points...

1) "The arbitrator heard all about the east sides attrition at great length, read the transcripts and you will agree. However that attrition is not a factor since AAA would not have lasted long enough to realize any of it. i e their Career expectations in late may of 2005 were not very long. Many debate this but at the Arbitration the east merger committee was not able to bring real proof that AAA would have stood alone for very much longer."

and

2) "maybe you can tell me why the merger committee spent more than one minute trying to get 104 guys on to the merged list that had never been hired by or flown a Mainline jet for AAA. They were nowhere to be found on your list until the Merger was announced."

Things that make you go hmmm...


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"I'm glad I don't live anywhere near a UAir or AWA domicile and never have to jumpseat on you guys."

Me too buddy. We're also looking forward to you no longer posting your spew on this thread as if you were personally assaulted by the award when in reality, your only connection to this saga is that your daddy was a US Airways pilot.

Tell pops we send our love.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Let's make sure we all understand something. AWA did not aquire AAA. AWA did not have the funds available to do that. The financing came from outside sources and was funnelled through AWA because they were not in bankrupcy at the time. However, had this merger not taken place, AWA would have found themselves in bankrupcy in the not to didtant future.

This is the kind of B.S. that just cracks me right up!! Metro, we were making profits prior to the merger being announced. To make the statement that AWA would have found themselves in BK in the not so distant future is simply false.

Lets put an end to all this crying and breath holding shall we? Get yourself current copy of section 45 of the ALPA merger policy. Read and let soak in the part where it clearly states "all awards are final and binding"!!! You can cry to national, pass resolutions for the executive council to review, and beg John Prater till you're blue in the face. When you all done at the end of the day ALPA has no choice but to defend this award against anything and everyone PERIOD. To do otherwise woud destablize the entire structure of ALPA and the DFR lawsuit would bankrupt this union. 75 years of service and over 70,000 members worldwide and you think they are going to flush that for 2000 upset no check that 1483 cause I forgot about the total winfall for the top 517 east pilots!!! Let me hit that pipe you're smokin

WD.