US Recalls

[grog_sit_reserv]

I got news for you... You were all about to be furloughed permanently from USAirways and somehow with AWA, I don't think that recall was comin'....

 

[Dogwood]

I got news for you... You were all about to be furloughed permanently from USAirways and somehow with AWA, I don't think that recall was comin'....

Thanks for the foresight. My crystal ball is in the shop.

Actually a group of investors, steped in and helped out. Yes, AWA did buy US Airways on paper. You are correct there.

 

[gcsass]

......but hey, stick me in a crj200 for 2 yrs as f/o and 1 yr as capt. and I'm golden......

I don't think "golden" is the word I would use to describe you Crzipilot!

Thanks for the Jumpseat in December, it was good to see you again!!

 

[DustyBottoms]

A furloughee (See definition below) is still an employee of the company

fur·lough
–noun 1.Military. a vacation or leave of absence granted to an enlisted person. 2.a usually temporary layoff from work: Many plant workers have been forced to go on furlough. 3.a temporary leave of absence authorized for a prisoner from a penitentiary. –verb (used with object) 4.to grant a furlough to. 5.to lay (an employee or worker) off from work, usually temporarily.

I don't see that anywhere in the definition you provided. I only see the words "layoff from work." Here is a definition off a web dictionary for layoff:

Layoff: 1. When a company eliminates jobs regardless of how good the employees' performance.

In the end, everyone should keep their relative seniority, with no windfalls.

If you were at the top of your old company, you should end up at or near the top of the new organization. Same for the middle and the bottom.

Now, that makes more sense. And according to your conviction, logically, the furloughed guys would be placed on the bottom of the list. After all, the furloughed guys were at the bottom 100% (not working for the company, by the provided definition). And all of the pilots who were working for the two companies at the time had their place on the seniority list, somewhere between 0 and 100%.

Now if a furloughed guy came back in a way proposed by the East, he would go from 100% (below everyone working) to close to 50% up the seniority list. That’s not even close to your relative seniority belief.

… In the end MOST of us are NOT going to be happy with the decision of the arbitrator, and there is nothing we can do about it. And I’m sure the East side feels the same way as we do in the West in that we wish this merger never would have happened!

 

[Dogwood]

I don't see that anywhere in the definition you provided. I only see the words "layoff from work." Here is a definition off a web dictionary for layoff:

Layoff: 1. When a company eliminates jobs regardless of how good the employees' performance.




Now, that makes more sense. And according to your conviction, logically, the furloughed guys would be placed on the bottom of the list. After all, the furloughed guys were at the bottom 100% (not working for the company, by the provided definition). And all of the pilots who were working for the two companies at the time had their place on the seniority list, somewhere between 0 and 100%.

Now if a furloughed guy came back in a way proposed by the East, he would go from 100% (below everyone working) to close to 50% up the seniority list. That’s not even close to your relative seniority belief.

… In the end MOST of us are NOT going to be happy with the decision of the arbitrator, and there is nothing we can do about it. And I’m sure the East side feels the same way as we do in the West in that we wish this merger never would have happened!

Well,

I guess we'll know the answer soon enough. We've both got some pretty good points. Really doesn't matter to me because I don't plan on going back, but I hate to see my fellow buds get screwed.

DW

 

[m80drvr]

A US Airways guy/gal with 15 years with the company, had a great chance of being recalled with 250 retirements/year. Now the west guys want to jump in front of them and take advantage of the retirements? I don't think so.

A furloughee (See definition below) is still an employee of the company, but is on a stand-by status to be recalled at the proper time. This is a temporary leave because they are overstaffed at the time. They still have employee numbers and can non-rev. This is not to be confused with a resignation, then the person wants to come back. Then you'd have a point.

Some type of even mixture is fair. Now, I'm not suggesting a west guy get furloughed so a prior furloughee can come back. The east furloughees can get jobs as they become available, but with a fair sen number.

There is no way you can convince me a 2 year west guy should go ahead of a 15 year east guy, even if he was on furlough status.

In the end, everyone should keep their relative seniority, with no windfalls.

If you were at the top of your old company, you should end up at or near the top of the new organization. Same for the middle and the bottom.

____________________________

fur·lough

/ˈfɜr

loʊ/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fur-loh]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1.Military. a vacation or leave of absence granted to an enlisted person. 2.a usually temporary layoff from work: Many plant workers have been forced to go on furlough. 3.a temporary leave of absence authorized for a prisoner from a penitentiary. –verb (used with object) 4.to grant a furlough to. 5.to lay (an employee or worker) off from work, usually temporarily.

Not to split hairs but you completely contradict yourself. The west list does go be relative seniority just about to the letter. It is the relative seniority of the active pilots. I don't see how you can slot a guy on furlough no matter how many years he has on property above any acitve pilot let alone recall him to a mid seniority line holding captain.

How do you determine the relative seniority of a furloughed pilot? Who on the combined active list is he realtive to? He actually has no seniority due to the fact that he is not on property. His relative seniority number is 101% and higher. If I remember how furlough worked for me I had the career expectation to be recalled to the bottom reserve F/O slot. That is exactly what will happen under the west list. When the retirements occur the furloughed pilots get recalled to the bottom F/O slot. The retirements will effect the whole list not just the west pilots. And remember the West retires about 50 to 60 a year and had airplanes on order.


What you are talking about is Date of hire or years of service. Not relative seniority. Well maybe "relative" seniority.

 

[michael707767]

There is no way you can convince me a 2 year west guy should go ahead of a 15 year east guy, even if he was on furlough status.

In the end, everyone should keep their relative seniority, with no windfalls.

If you were at the top of your old company, you should end up at or near the top of the new organization. Same for the middle and the bottom.

I agree. If you are on the top you stay on top, etc. But, guess what, a 15 year east guy who is still on furlough is not just on the bottom, he is below the bottom. He is unemployed and as such should end up below any pilot that is currently employed by USAirways.

 

[Guppiedriver]

A quick glance at the east list with everyone mixed in somewhat even, seem smore fair.

Mixed in somewhat even? Are you high? Our number 1 pilot ends up as number 909 on the new list and that's somewhat even?

Clearly Jet Blew does not do enough random drug testing!

 

[Dogwood]

Mixed in somewhat even? Are you high? Our number 1 pilot ends up as number 909 on the new list and that's somewhat even?

Clearly Jet Blew does not do enough random drug testing!

Ok, it was a very quick glance.

 

[A350]

Your number one ends up at 909....with a 7 year fence. When it expires, he ends up very close to number 1 anyway and he can bid whatever he wants....

Hardly a poor place to be with all the retirements coming down the pike.

A350

 

[PHXFLYR]

Yes it was a very quick glance. Under the USAir East proposal I would have went from the 50 percentile where I am right now on my existing senority list to the 75 percentile on their version of the combined senority list. Not to be outdone in its absurdity is the west proposal that would put me in the 33 percentile of their version of the senority list proposal.(Like that's gonna happen anytime soon. ) I guess that's why the arbitrator called everyone back to the table in a few weeks. I don't think he's too impressed with what either side presented at the recently concluded hearings.


PHXFLYR

 

[Fast43]

Your number one ends up at 909....with a 7 year fence. When it expires, he ends up very close to number 1 anyway and he can bid whatever he wants....

Hardly a poor place to be with all the retirements coming down the pike.

A350

As retirement age will surely change (ie the latest NPRM) surely that is false reasoning.


And as this is a recall thread.....

In a display of sheer genius

The East guys testified in the arbitration something to the effect that
"hey to get 160 guys to accept recall the company is sending out 500 letters"
so see we won't even have to slot very many of the furloughed guys in above active guys on the new Seniority list. They must not think very highly of the Arbitrators abilities. As it more than clear that the reason for most bypasses is the very question of what their seniority will be longterm. Only after that is resolved will we know who is really comming back etc.

Fast

 

[PlaneDrvr]

Your number one ends up at 909....with a 7 year fence. When it expires, he ends up very close to number 1 anyway and he can bid whatever he wants....

Hardly a poor place to be with all the retirements coming down the pike.

A350

Again, don't have a dog in this fight.

But, maybe the guy from the West is say that he wants 'their number 1' (even after the 7 year fence), to be "Permanently Fenced" out of the A330 (and of course the A350, when/if it comes), as they NEVER (or EVER) had any 'career expectations' of flying one????

DA

 

[Hpilot]

I agree the west pilots did not expect to fly A350s. The east pilots however had no expectation of flying A350s.

 

[sonny320]

I thought this post was about UsAirways recalls.

 

[Guppiedriver]

Your number one ends up at 909....with a 7 year fence. When it expires, he ends up very close to number 1 anyway and he can bid whatever he wants....

Hardly a poor place to be with all the retirements coming down the pike.

A350

When it expires he'll be able to bid for a job as a Walmart greeter, because he will be retired.

The east side retirements aren't as valuable as you make them out to be. Roughly 40% of them are coming from the right seat and with the age 65 NPRM being rammed down our throats your dream list is well, just a dream.

 

[Turtle21]

What does Fair got to do with it?

How is it not fair? They were furloughed and had no career expectation. How can a person on the street come back and be senior to someone who is active on a seniority list and flying? Especially when all US Air East had planned prior to the merger was more furloughs and US AIR WEST was hiring 30/month. When it comes to it the arbitrator will decide but I just don't get what you guys are thinking with this? Why is that not FAIR?

Easties could argue that they were expecting to be in the top 100 of seniority for their last 10 years because of the 200-400 retirements per year over the next decade (even though they are furloughed now).

Westies could argue that USAir was going away soon.

Guys in the East (some that used to fly for Eastern) and are now furloughed could argue that they should not be junior to 2005 hires in the West (who are too young to have heard of Eastern Airlines.)

Guys in the West could say DOH don't matter for no one cause "we saved your airline".

Pilots Argue argue argue.

While mgmnt sings cha ching cha ching cha ching.

 

[Turtle21]

I thought this post was about UsAirways recalls.

Heh. Heh. It is just a preview of what will be added to Mohawk, Braniff, Eastern, Allegeny, PSA, USAir, Trump Shuttle, bitch and moan that has been going on for 20 years and after the next seniority integration will continue for another 20 years.

Yawn.

"Hows about we just raise the gear already."

 

[johnnyb]

I thought this post was about UsAirways recalls.

What, and deny the Westies a chance to crap in your Cheerios?

 

[Crzipilot]

Interesting Parker comments on the Feb 6 crew news in PHX. 3yr F/O stands up complaining about the stagnation and such on the West side.

Parkers comments basically. Well this merger has allowed you to keep your job. What we had was an airline with 20% less revenue and same cost as East. This was not going to work. If the merger had not happened, we would have declared BK and downsized by about 15% and you would not be standing here today. Basically the airline they had, was not going to work.

Basically the BK arguement is a zero sum game I believe...

 

[PHXFLYR]

Sounds like our future looked just like uSAirs did. Only defference is you guys would have filed Chapter 7 long before any of this would have come to fruition. More of that fine "USAir Spin'" I mentioned in an earlier post....You guys never let me down.


PHXFLYR

 

[Crzipilot]

Can't really say I'm spinning it, but there is an answer to those that state the East side is getting everything, (190's, recalls, seniority based non-rev, etc etc) and the West side is getting only stagnation and such. (though there was the inclusion to the profit sharing and stuff)

Either way, as you agreed, both futures were bleak, and if you read into some of the arbitrators past rulings on integrations, They don't like using crystal balls. I.E. What may have happened in the future may have happened, but it didn't. what we have is where we are at. Putting two failing carriers together. Furloughees/current pilots may have lost their airline through liquidation, they may not have. West may have grown, and gotten widebodies, or increased their hiring, stolen market share, decreased time to capt....or they could have gone bk and chp7 like the other side. The point being is, it's not where we are. So the arguement from both sides is a moot point.
Anyways, the hasing of what's going to happen with the seniority list, is pretty much pointless, and a matter of waiting to see who is going to be the most pissed off.

If only the energy could be pointed towards the contract and getting mgmt off it's A**....

I liked his comment to in the news session regarding pay raises. Where he said that Mgmt's ideal is to have a contract which attracts and sustains the highest and best qualified pilots in the industry, and he feels that what they have is sufficient for that. (I.E. total cost of pilot contract) and that moving the East pilots to the west contract would be 40-50 million, whereas ALPA's as is a 400million increase. Don't know about you, but I think, with a contract comparason to other carriers East/West is a little below that, which will attract the best and brightest. Though he probably knows there are hoards of pilots at regionals, that would kill to simply get a Major Number. and hence, he can attract enough to fill classes when time comes to hire. I.E. J.O rationalization......

 

[BenderGonzales]

"Though he probably knows there are hoards of pilots at regionals, that would kill to simply get a Major Number."

The same fellas who were willing to go fly 50/70/90 seat RJs for $20/hour? Can't say i'm surprised.

 

[cactusboy53]

Crzi;
Was that after his second or third beverage??:beer:

 

[aewanabe]

"Though he probably knows there are hoards of pilots at regionals, that would kill to simply get a Major Number."

The same fellas who were willing to go fly 50/70/90 seat RJs for $20/hour? Can't say i'm surprised.

Yeah because it was ok when you did it for 11 dollars an hour in your Metro or EMB 120 after paying 10k for your training.