US Recalls

[BenderGonzales]

"Only if you let it get that way.

PHXFLYR"

Just the same, I think i'll bypass for now. No point in yanking the gear for a group of people who hate my guts before they ever even meet me. (At least as long as I have another option)

 

[Crzipilot]

Interesting.....

The comment of coming back to US and it not being what we left. I believe the majority, if not all of us realize that. Yes, many B*$*# even with A-scale money and pensions.... And now that contract has been decimated, and gutted. Interestingly enough, during that process, the contracts that were continually thrown in AAA Alpa's face was SWA/AWA/JetBlue. Why?? Well their costs were less.....for a number of reasons, but part of it was pay rates and contractural requirements. The east side, gave it up....and many can say, they folded, etc etc, dragged the bar lower, which in some instances happened. But look further back than that. LCC airlines, coming in, competing at lower costs, supplemented by lower labor costs, chiping away at US's east strong hold. A slew or regional jets, flown by pilots willing to sell their soul for that golden PIC shiny jet time, etc etc... If you look around, when was that last carrier to stand for raising the bar? As opposed to individual willing to go to work at substandard rates and conditions??? I think I remember Comair, AA??? The picture is bigger than AWA/US, and the root of the evil definately started prior to this, way prior.....

As to the comment of, working on getting away from the anchor of US, well all of us have tried, but those wonderful shiny jets did a wonderful thing. See after 9/11.....guys with 1000 PIC were getting hired, whereas, those of us that had come up the ranks in a different route, were termed as Non-qualified. 7000hrs of Heavy 80% International time, with 1800+ hours of Airbus time, but no PIC, were termed as Non-qualified......but hey, stick me in a crj200 for 2 yrs as f/o and 1 yr as capt. and I'm golden......

 

[TWA Dude]

The only answer that has been proven true by THIS thread is: Q: What will the atmosphere in the USAir cockpits be like once the merger is complete? A: Caustic at best. Dangerous at worst.

You're confusing Internet Reality with the Real World. Trust me, if message board animosity spilled over into the cockpit there would've been a daily fistfight when the TWAers started flying with nAAtives. That didn't happen. From my USAir Express days I always felt that Mainline guys were cool and except for the usual few exeptions I still feel that way.

 

[JohnQ]

You're confusing Internet Reality with the Real World. Trust me, if message board animosity spilled over into the cockpit there would've been a daily fistfight when the TWAers started flying with nAAtives. That didn't happen. From my USAir Express days I always felt that Mainline guys were cool and except for the usual few exeptions I still feel that way.

You got that right. Most internet message board posters (hey...they would include me) no more represent the typical pilot than Anna Nicole Smith represents the typical widow.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Interesting.....

The comment of coming back to US and it not being what we left. I believe the majority, if not all of us realize that. Yes, many B*$*# even with A-scale money and pensions.... And now that contract has been decimated, and gutted. Interestingly enough, during that process, the contracts that were continually thrown in AAA Alpa's face was SWA/AWA/JetBlue. Why?? Well their costs were less.....for a number of reasons, but part of it was pay rates and contractural requirements. The east side, gave it up....and many can say, they folded, etc etc, dragged the bar lower, which in some instances happened. But look further back than that. LCC airlines, coming in, competing at lower costs, supplemented by lower labor costs, chiping away at US's east strong hold. A slew or regional jets, flown by pilots willing to sell their soul for that golden PIC shiny jet time, etc etc... If you look around, when was that last carrier to stand for raising the bar? As opposed to individual willing to go to work at substandard rates and conditions??? I think I remember Comair, AA??? The picture is bigger than AWA/US, and the root of the evil definately started prior to this, way prior.....

As to the comment of, working on getting away from the anchor of US, well all of us have tried, but those wonderful shiny jets did a wonderful thing. See after 9/11.....guys with 1000 PIC were getting hired, whereas, those of us that had come up the ranks in a different route, were termed as Non-qualified. 7000hrs of Heavy 80% International time, with 1800+ hours of Airbus time, but no PIC, were termed as Non-qualified......but hey, stick me in a crj200 for 2 yrs as f/o and 1 yr as capt. and I'm golden......

Excellent post. I agree with all that you say having lived through it all in an earlier era. Funny thing,though is that unlike you I had the MEPIC but I still couldn't move the career along. So I feel your pain as "Slick Willy" used to say. I'll say this though. The MEPIC time is highly overated by the HR types. I think its just a means that allows them to weed out some of the resumes that come across the desk. And that's unfortunate in that it eliminates pilots like yourself with more real world experience. One thing is for sure .This industry is nothing like it was when we were all private pilots starting out in terms of pay benefits and working conditions.Management slowly but surely pulled the rug out from under us. But we were too dang busy trying to move our career along to pay much attention. The bigger question is where do we go from here? Do we unite and take the fight to the Doug Parker's of the world? Or do we sit here on assinine webboards like this one and continue to point fingers at each other?


PHXFLYR

 

[Swaayze]

Well I was about to say that this thread alone will lead to much bypassing, but the last couple of posts show some promise. Some of you guys need a vacation. No pilot is in control of what's happening at LCC. No pilot has stolen another pilot's flying. No pilot at West saved a pilot at East's job. No one pilot is better or worse for the specific type of airplane he's flown. Does it suck that AWA stopped hiring and you guys are stagnant? Yes, absolutely. Does it suck that almost 2000 of us at East have been furloughed for years? Yes, absolutely. Does it suck that AWA allowed CRJ900s and U allowed crappy E170/190 precedent and rates? Yep. Are we all morons for wasting our time arguing here about stuff we cannot control even though we will hopefully steer clear of this BS in the cockpit and enjoy each others' company and professionalism? I'm hoping yes is correct here too.

Like it or not AWA and U are in this together and need to focus on taking back our profession instead of crying over spilled milk and the injustices we've endured to get here.

Get back on topic: Anyone know where the recalls are at with East and whether West will get some recalls to cover their shortages and help Dave out?

 

[Dogwood]

Nope . Opposite.
East thinks they deserve all the left seats ( read the wish list)
West wants a FAIR integration.

Looking at the West proposed sen list with all of the furloughees stapled to the bottom, I would say "Fair" might be a little bit of a stretch.

A quick glance at the east list with everyone mixed in somewhat even, seem smore fair.

But it's in the hands of the Big Guy, so I guess we'll find out in a couple months.

Will be very interesting.

 

[Crzipilot]

Well the "letters", which surprise surprise, are not in compliance with the contract, and not recall letters per se....are down to 4/99 class. Not sure how many are accepting, I know a few at PSA have accepted, but due to another type of inept managment, they are going to be held until at least May possibly 9 months total....so who knows....

 

[abefly]

Looking at the West proposed sen list with all of the furloughees stapled to the bottom, I would say "Fair" might be a little bit of a stretch.
.

How is it not fair? They were furloughed and had no career expectation. How can a person on the street come back and be senior to someone who is active on a seniority list and flying? Especially when all US Air East had planned prior to the merger was more furloughs and US AIR WEST was hiring 30/month. When it comes to it the arbitrator will decide but I just don't get what you guys are thinking with this? Why is that not FAIR?

 

[Dogwood]

How is it not fair? They were furloughed and had no career expectation. How can a person on the street come back and be senior to someone who is active on a seniority list and flying? Especially when all US Air East had planned prior to the merger was more furloughs and US AIR WEST was hiring 30/month. When it comes to it the arbitrator will decide but I just don't get what you guys are thinking with this? Why is that not FAIR?

A US Airways guy/gal with 15 years with the company, had a great chance of being recalled with 250 retirements/year. Now the west guys want to jump in front of them and take advantage of the retirements? I don't think so.

A furloughee (See definition below) is still an employee of the company, but is on a stand-by status to be recalled at the proper time. This is a temporary leave because they are overstaffed at the time. They still have employee numbers and can non-rev. This is not to be confused with a resignation, then the person wants to come back. Then you'd have a point.

Some type of even mixture is fair. Now, I'm not suggesting a west guy get furloughed so a prior furloughee can come back. The east furloughees can get jobs as they become available, but with a fair sen number.

There is no way you can convince me a 2 year west guy should go ahead of a 15 year east guy, even if he was on furlough status.

In the end, everyone should keep their relative seniority, with no windfalls.

If you were at the top of your old company, you should end up at or near the top of the new organization. Same for the middle and the bottom.

____________________________

fur·lough

/ˈfɜr

loʊ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fur-loh] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1.Military. a vacation or leave of absence granted to an enlisted person. 2.a usually temporary layoff from work: Many plant workers have been forced to go on furlough. 3.a temporary leave of absence authorized for a prisoner from a penitentiary. –verb (used with object) 4.to grant a furlough to. 5.to lay (an employee or worker) off from work, usually temporarily.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

I got news for you... You were all about to be furloughed permanently from USAirways and somehow with AWA, I don't think that recall was comin'....

 

[Dogwood]

I got news for you... You were all about to be furloughed permanently from USAirways and somehow with AWA, I don't think that recall was comin'....

Thanks for the foresight. My crystal ball is in the shop.

Actually a group of investors, steped in and helped out. Yes, AWA did buy US Airways on paper. You are correct there.

 

[gcsass]

......but hey, stick me in a crj200 for 2 yrs as f/o and 1 yr as capt. and I'm golden......

I don't think "golden" is the word I would use to describe you Crzipilot!

Thanks for the Jumpseat in December, it was good to see you again!!

 

[DustyBottoms]

A furloughee (See definition below) is still an employee of the company

fur·lough
–noun 1.Military. a vacation or leave of absence granted to an enlisted person. 2.a usually temporary layoff from work: Many plant workers have been forced to go on furlough. 3.a temporary leave of absence authorized for a prisoner from a penitentiary. –verb (used with object) 4.to grant a furlough to. 5.to lay (an employee or worker) off from work, usually temporarily.

I don't see that anywhere in the definition you provided. I only see the words "layoff from work." Here is a definition off a web dictionary for layoff:

Layoff: 1. When a company eliminates jobs regardless of how good the employees' performance.

In the end, everyone should keep their relative seniority, with no windfalls.

If you were at the top of your old company, you should end up at or near the top of the new organization. Same for the middle and the bottom.

Now, that makes more sense. And according to your conviction, logically, the furloughed guys would be placed on the bottom of the list. After all, the furloughed guys were at the bottom 100% (not working for the company, by the provided definition). And all of the pilots who were working for the two companies at the time had their place on the seniority list, somewhere between 0 and 100%.

Now if a furloughed guy came back in a way proposed by the East, he would go from 100% (below everyone working) to close to 50% up the seniority list. That’s not even close to your relative seniority belief.

… In the end MOST of us are NOT going to be happy with the decision of the arbitrator, and there is nothing we can do about it. And I’m sure the East side feels the same way as we do in the West in that we wish this merger never would have happened!

 

[Dogwood]

I don't see that anywhere in the definition you provided. I only see the words "layoff from work." Here is a definition off a web dictionary for layoff:

Layoff: 1. When a company eliminates jobs regardless of how good the employees' performance.




Now, that makes more sense. And according to your conviction, logically, the furloughed guys would be placed on the bottom of the list. After all, the furloughed guys were at the bottom 100% (not working for the company, by the provided definition). And all of the pilots who were working for the two companies at the time had their place on the seniority list, somewhere between 0 and 100%.

Now if a furloughed guy came back in a way proposed by the East, he would go from 100% (below everyone working) to close to 50% up the seniority list. That’s not even close to your relative seniority belief.

… In the end MOST of us are NOT going to be happy with the decision of the arbitrator, and there is nothing we can do about it. And I’m sure the East side feels the same way as we do in the West in that we wish this merger never would have happened!

Well,

I guess we'll know the answer soon enough. We've both got some pretty good points. Really doesn't matter to me because I don't plan on going back, but I hate to see my fellow buds get screwed.

DW

 

[m80drvr]

A US Airways guy/gal with 15 years with the company, had a great chance of being recalled with 250 retirements/year. Now the west guys want to jump in front of them and take advantage of the retirements? I don't think so.

A furloughee (See definition below) is still an employee of the company, but is on a stand-by status to be recalled at the proper time. This is a temporary leave because they are overstaffed at the time. They still have employee numbers and can non-rev. This is not to be confused with a resignation, then the person wants to come back. Then you'd have a point.

Some type of even mixture is fair. Now, I'm not suggesting a west guy get furloughed so a prior furloughee can come back. The east furloughees can get jobs as they become available, but with a fair sen number.

There is no way you can convince me a 2 year west guy should go ahead of a 15 year east guy, even if he was on furlough status.

In the end, everyone should keep their relative seniority, with no windfalls.

If you were at the top of your old company, you should end up at or near the top of the new organization. Same for the middle and the bottom.

____________________________

fur·lough

/ˈfɜr

loʊ/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fur-loh]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1.Military. a vacation or leave of absence granted to an enlisted person. 2.a usually temporary layoff from work: Many plant workers have been forced to go on furlough. 3.a temporary leave of absence authorized for a prisoner from a penitentiary. –verb (used with object) 4.to grant a furlough to. 5.to lay (an employee or worker) off from work, usually temporarily.

Not to split hairs but you completely contradict yourself. The west list does go be relative seniority just about to the letter. It is the relative seniority of the active pilots. I don't see how you can slot a guy on furlough no matter how many years he has on property above any acitve pilot let alone recall him to a mid seniority line holding captain.

How do you determine the relative seniority of a furloughed pilot? Who on the combined active list is he realtive to? He actually has no seniority due to the fact that he is not on property. His relative seniority number is 101% and higher. If I remember how furlough worked for me I had the career expectation to be recalled to the bottom reserve F/O slot. That is exactly what will happen under the west list. When the retirements occur the furloughed pilots get recalled to the bottom F/O slot. The retirements will effect the whole list not just the west pilots. And remember the West retires about 50 to 60 a year and had airplanes on order.


What you are talking about is Date of hire or years of service. Not relative seniority. Well maybe "relative" seniority.

 

[michael707767]

There is no way you can convince me a 2 year west guy should go ahead of a 15 year east guy, even if he was on furlough status.

In the end, everyone should keep their relative seniority, with no windfalls.

If you were at the top of your old company, you should end up at or near the top of the new organization. Same for the middle and the bottom.

I agree. If you are on the top you stay on top, etc. But, guess what, a 15 year east guy who is still on furlough is not just on the bottom, he is below the bottom. He is unemployed and as such should end up below any pilot that is currently employed by USAirways.

 

[Guppiedriver]

A quick glance at the east list with everyone mixed in somewhat even, seem smore fair.

Mixed in somewhat even? Are you high? Our number 1 pilot ends up as number 909 on the new list and that's somewhat even?

Clearly Jet Blew does not do enough random drug testing!

 

[Dogwood]

Mixed in somewhat even? Are you high? Our number 1 pilot ends up as number 909 on the new list and that's somewhat even?

Clearly Jet Blew does not do enough random drug testing!

Ok, it was a very quick glance.

 

[A350]

Your number one ends up at 909....with a 7 year fence. When it expires, he ends up very close to number 1 anyway and he can bid whatever he wants....

Hardly a poor place to be with all the retirements coming down the pike.

A350