US Airways' go-it-alone approach paying off

[St. Nic]

USAPA is coming out with a contract, you can be a part of the team building or step aside. The 9th kicked your little Leonitas to the curb *burp* and you little lottery ticket isn't worth a hill of beans to you now. Get ready for DOH- its a coming your way.

 

[Crzipilot]

Wow! Crzi, you've had quite a busy afternoon. Allow me to respond.
ALPA (notice how I capitalized it, it's an abbreviation) does have the ability to reject an arbitrated seniority award if it can be shown the award was achieved in an illegal manner, then Yes it can be thrown out. You may recall the East immediately challenged the award and found there were no improprieties in the way it was done. They found Nic met *ALL* of his requirements. As such: *ALPA could NOT reject the award*. Sadly, that jackass of an ALPA president tried to interfere with the award. That was completely outside of his authority and he had NO right to attempt to convince the West to return and use the Nic as a "West opening position". That is the reason there IS a defined merger process. So nobody can say "I personally don't like the outcome so it isn't binding. Had you Easties not thrown them out, we would have destroyed ALPA in Court.



Nice cheap shot with Republic. Classy. Let's move passed that. Use your head, genius. If the West had "stolen" 24% of your flying, they'd have had to HIRE pilots instead of furloughing nearly 2x the number you did...and you're 2x the size of the West.

At least try to make shooting down your USAPA propaganda interesting. What other garbage can you come up with.

Ok let's talk genius here. I'll take the easy one first. The 24% flying and having to hire. Uhmmmmmmmm.....wow. I guess they didn't pull LAS down? I guess the company wasn't found in violation of min. block hours, which you received via the t/a, sorta like a mirror clause that's in our crappy contract. I guess, if they didn't pull down LAS and took our 24% they would have had to hire pilots. BUT with the economy, flashing down the tubes (kinda reminds ya of '01-03?) LAS took the hit with the leisure flyers slacking off.

Now the other part.

first off....you made some valiant points. Though can you find a statement such as this: (just replace Kagel with the NIC and date)

The Pilots' System Seniority List, as established by the Award of Arbitrator S. Kagel dated October 31, 1988, shall constitute the official Pilots' System
Seniority List.

You see, I have a feeling a statement such as this, in a binding contract between two parties is what would memorialize a seniority list. Now if you can bring that statement forward in some contract somewhere, I guess I'd have to agree the NIC isn't dead.

Your right, we kicked ALPA out, for a myriad of reasons (which you guys still don't accept or listen to) and that also went with them, their crappy limp (*e4 merger policy. Don't have that limp thing in front of me, so I can't specifically state what it does state, either way, obviously there was something wrong with this award if the lawyers and etc were negotiating negotiating (and probably behind the scenes trying to figure out the best damage control to keep those dues checks coming) Lo and behold, dumb alpa dropped it and lost a chunk of themselves.

there was an internal alpa agreement to go through there merger policy process and see what happened. If both would have stayed alpa, then your right, nic would be it. But with alpa gone, nic is something for alpa to use in it's future alpa/alpa mergers. I believe some of your advisors and lawyers commented on such things to you guys, and maybe even now your current lawyer might be realizing as such.


The republic comment wasn't supposed to be a cheap shot, just a view of the current reality. That guy over there has already taken over two smaller airlines... So if you look at the size you would have shrunk to, add in a little more cash, he probably could have bypassed frontier and midwest, and bought you guys..... That's all I'm saying.

 

[Metrojet]

We have the law on our side. Shouldn't need luck.Spare? No. To fight your tyranny? You betcha!

"tyranny" - I see that is your new favorite word of the day!

tyr·an·ny

   /ˈtɪr

ə

ni/ Show Spelled[tir-uh-nee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -nies. 1. arbitrary or unrestrained exercise of power; despotic abuse of authority.

2. the government or rule of a tyrant or absolute ruler.

3. a state ruled by a tyrant or absolute ruler.

4. oppressive or unjustly severe government on the part of any ruler.

5. undue severity or harshness.

6. a tyrannical act or proceeding.


Last time I looked - USAPA was voted in within the legal jurisdiction of the Railway Labor Act - now if we were talking about North Korea or Iran - then maybe I could see the use of your new vocabulary!

Metrojet

 

[Metrojet]

Wow! Crzi, you've had quite a busy afternoon. Allow me to respond.



ALPA (notice how I capitalized it, it's an abbreviation) does have the ability to reject an arbitrated seniority award if it can be shown the award was achieved in an illegal manner, then Yes it can be thrown out. You may recall the East immediately challenged the award and found there were no improprieties in the way it was done. They found Nic met *ALL* of his requirements. As such: *ALPA could NOT reject the award*. Sadly, that jackass of an ALPA president tried to interfere with the award. That was completely outside of his authority and he had NO right to attempt to convince the West to return and use the Nic as a "West opening position". That is the reason there IS a defined merger process. So nobody can say "I personally don't like the outcome so it isn't binding. Had you Easties not thrown them out, we would have destroyed ALPA in Court.



Nice cheap shot with Republic. Classy. Let's move passed that. Use your head, genius. If the West had "stolen" 24% of your flying, they'd have had to HIRE pilots instead of furloughing nearly 2x the number you did...and you're 2x the size of the West.

At least try to make shooting down your USAPA propaganda interesting. What other garbage can you come up with.

Poor argument about the "stolen 24%" of the east flying - the reason that their should have been hiring of "west" pilots instead of furloughing?? - lets see - didn't we have a LAS base that has lost way more than 24% of its flying - even a first grader can see that math -

Metrojet

 

[TWA Dude]

"tyranny" - I see that is your new favorite word of the day!

Thanks. Your Mr. Seham gets the credit for using it to describe the East first.

Poor argument about the "stolen 24%" of the east flying..."

Again with the 24% fallacy? It's fallacy because the Transition Agreement governs the distribution of flying. We fly some former East routes and vice-versa. What's the percentage of West flying flown by East metal? How come nobody talks about that? Because it's irrelevant. If you think the West has flying we're not entitled to complain to your reps. My guess is USAPA would complain very quickly if this was an issue.

 

[Crzipilot]

Don't think anyone is really complaining per sey about the flying. Gotta look a little under the surface of the comments and the bigger picture to understand the reason it's pointed out.

Like, I don't believe you guys ever had a min. block hours or airframes clause anywhere in your contract??? Hmmm..wonder where that might have come from....

sorta the big picture thing, such as in 7-10 yrs or so, this argument will pretty much be a moot point with the amount of retirements that will have taken place....

 

[PHXFLYR]

Well I'm feeling nice today, figured I'd do it for you.

As the majority opinion stated... " Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3"

Oh and Footnote 3??? Seems they threw a shot at the dissenting opinion, wonder why that was????

3We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the
Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognized, that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was
its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the
Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA.

Even the 9th says, We aren't going to say whether it's binding, or approach that issue, as the NIC award was a product of the INTERNAL rules and Processes of ALPA.

I believe that's what the bold letters say? Correct? So if I read that right, they are hinting that, if something comes out that doesn't include the NIC, it is not necessarily a DFR. And on top of that you must then prove that a new union is inherently stuck with the INTERNAL POLICIES of the union it replaced.

That's a good one......... Now boys and girls, can you tell me how that is different from say.....Uhmmmmmmmmmmmm inheriting the T/A or the West CBA and East CBA from alpa????


So do ya feel lucky? Got a spare 2 million laying around?

Yup !!


PHXFLYR

 

[Crzipilot]

good could I borrow a few shekkels?

Just uncovered a barn find vette I need to bring back to life....

 

[Guppiedriver]

Originally Posted by Crzipilot
I think you'd be prime picking for republic if it wasn't for the hook up back east...

Oh...the irony of this post! Had you not hooked up with a little west coast airline, y'all might be Wal*Mart greeters.

Here's an idea. Parker has the nic list under his pillows. He gets a CBA with section 22 that states the following:

"The Pilots' System Seniority List, as established by the USAPA constitution and bylaws, dated October 31, 2010, shall constitute the official Pilots' System
Seniority List."

Now, Parker looks at that list he is handed to him, and lo behold, it satisfies the T/A guidelines and doesn't cost him anything. He really doesn't care who is in front of the airplanes as long as someone is there, and it doesn't cost him any more than what it's gonna cost him.

So he looks at them and says. Hey, what about this internal alpa process that produced a list, that I've been sleeping on for 2 years???

Answer: That was an alpa deal. Alpa is gone, so go ahead and keep sleeping on it, you can use this list for now on.

......

You are pretty naive, aren't you? This is how it's going to go: USAPA will try to pass their coveted DOH list to Parker and he's going to say, "but I already have a list and it fits the TA to the letter." USAPA will say, "Bbbbut, ALPA made that list and our constitution only allows for DOH, so you have to take our list." Parker will say, hmmm, I don't think so...................well, wait a minute, I might have a solution for you.......what are you willing to give up for DOH?"

I don't doubt that Parker will give you DOH, but it's going cost you big time. It doesn't matter anyway, once you ratify your concessionary contract with DOH, it'll sit under Parkers pillow for years with "permanent injunction" stamped across the cover

You US Air 99/00 hires are funny, if not a little predictable. Hahaha!

 

[Crzipilot]

Ya, I guess about predictable as you 04/05 AW hires huh????

Again here ya are looking into the future telling us how things are going to go. You guys out west have a great track record with that don't you????

You'll never get enough cards signed....
You'll never have enough votes to get alpa out....
You'll never get the appeals court to hear your case
You'll never get the appeals court to overturn Judge Wake.....

jAnd now......US will never take a DOH list...'cause they have a list..

Oh BTW I emailed parker a list a while back....and said it was from alpa...Had my name as #1.....

Think he'll demand to use that list?