US Airways Final Recalls: Take it, or Leave it?

[aewanabe]

I think those are both excellent points. Most likely I will be following your advice and staying right where I am.

When I look around the industry at young pilots just starting out and I watch them tripping all over each other to get hired flying an RJ, or hear them talking about how JetBlue is the airline they've wanted to work for "their whole life", I can't help but wonder if I just lack the initiative to succeed in a major airline career.

I know that if 10 years ago I read a thread like this I would have thought, "He just didn't want it bad enough". I can't help but to wonder if that is how some of the young pilots who read these boards feel about me.

Furloughed:

As one of those "young guys" (thirty, is that young?) about to transition to an LCC, I think you're spot on. I already have a small family and am making my decisions based on what will benefit us, not on flying a bigger airplane.

I too grew up with dreams of flying for USAir as I had family on the ground operations side (I'm the first pilot). My first trip overseas was in a PI 767 and I remember walking through the brand-new PIT terminal with awe. Now after flying for a carrier with a large amount of US feed I wouldn't touch the "new LCC" with a ten-foot pole even if they were hiring into Group II positions. In short this young guy has no illusions about what the career is now and I certainly don't "want it" the way I did ten, fifteen years ago. I know if I sentenced myself to eternal reserve in Philly I'd spend every day in the crash pad wondering what my son was up to that day. Good luck in whatever you decide.

 

[w_lloughby]

I too, would like to share my thoughts on the notion of returning to USAirways. I intend to pass on USAirays for the non sched North American Airlines, which is where I am presently employed. I would like to share a brief synopsis of how I got to this point in my career and what I have learned aong the way. My first airline was GLA, I chose to fly for Great Lakes at lower pay, because I did not think it was right for a pilot to pay for his training. I was furloughed and subsequetly hired at Piedmont ( the old Henson Airlines), flying DHC 8 a/c. I upgraded in two and half years and flew as a Captain for four years. I was in the first class of pilots from the wholly owned USAirways Express carriers to fly the E170 for USAirways, MidAtlantic Airways. We were a tight group of pilots, we went by the motto 'All or None'. It was awesome, working at MidAtlantic. The pay was less than DHC 8 Captain pay, but it was enjoyable and I was still able to provide for my family. When we were furloughed and placed on the USAirways seniority list awaiting recall there were mixed emotions. It sucked being furoughed, but it felt warm and fuzzy knowing you had something to come back to. Furlough, aftr all, is part of the industry right? The AWA and USAirways merger created some anxiety for those of us that came from the Wholly owned's (CEL guys). There were rumors that we would have our names removed from the seniority list and lose that warm and fuzzy recall feeling. The integration was handled by a mediator that ulitmately decided on combined seniority list that truly favored the pilots at AWA, stapling all the furloughed USAirways pilots below the most junior AWA pilot. Now facing a recall to USAirways, comfortable at North American Airlines flying 757, and 767 a/c all over the word, you might say I am enjoying flying again. While we do have our share of uncertainty here at NAA as well, the future seems brighter here. The health insurance is better, the pay is better and will improve as we struggle to secure our first contract. USAirways offers me a recall with less comprehensive health insurance, less pay and the guarantee of bottom reserve for quite some time.
Perhaps it is the notion of returning to a Legacy Carrier, an airline whose history and name mean something to the public which causes me to even consider returning. I too feel like I have failed in the career having interviewed with; JetBlue, Airtran, and even FedEx.....without a job offer. I have landed at NAA. For some, that may seem like a farm team, not making it, not having the right stuff. Originally when I started this career, I thought I would end up at a major, but now........the majors are calling and everything in the minor leagues seems so much better. I make my decision to pass at USAirways on the information I have at hand. That is how an aviator should execute the decision making process, based on the best available information. It could turn out to be the wrong decision, but like an earlier post suggested, if you are able to enjoy what you do, and provide for your family, than you are a success. I have enjoyed reading the thoughts of fellow aviators on this subject of having to chose, and I hope that perhaps my experience and perspective may help others with this choice.

I apologize for the length of this submission, but I wish to say one more thing.

While at NAA, I had an amazing experience on the ramp in Kuwait City were I was able to bring a young Air Force Captains video message home to his parents , who had not talked to him in a while, saying " he was Ok...talk to you soon".

One of the very best experiences avaition has offered me.

God Bless.

 

[w_lloughby]

I too, would like to share my thoughts on the notion of returning to USAirways. I intend to pass on USAirays for the non sched North American Airlines, which is where I am presently employed. I would like to share a brief synopsis of how I got to this point in my career and what I have learned aong the way. My first airline was GLA, I chose to fly for Great Lakes at lower pay, because I did not think it was right for a pilot to pay for his training. I was furloughed and subsequetly hired at Piedmont ( the old Henson Airlines), flying DHC 8 a/c. I upgraded in two and half years and flew as a Captain for four years. I was in the first class of pilots from the wholly owned USAirways Express carriers to fly the E170 for USAirways, MidAtlantic Airways. We were a tight group of pilots, we went by the motto 'All or None'. It was awesome, working at MidAtlantic. The pay was less than DHC 8 Captain pay, but it was enjoyable and I was still able to provide for my family. When we were furloughed and placed on the USAirways seniority list awaiting recall there were mixed emotions. It sucked being furoughed, but it felt warm and fuzzy knowing you had something to come back to. Furlough, aftr all, is part of the industry right? The AWA and USAirways merger created some anxiety for those of us that came from the Wholly owned's (CEL guys). There were rumors that we would have our names removed from the seniority list and lose that warm and fuzzy recall feeling. The integration was handled by a mediator that ulitmately decided on combined seniority list that truly favored the pilots at AWA, stapling all the furloughed USAirways pilots below the most junior AWA pilot. Now facing a recall to USAirways, comfortable at North American Airlines flying 757, and 767 a/c all over the word, you might say I am enjoying flying again. While we do have our share of uncertainty here at NAA as well, the future seems brighter here. The health insurance is better, the pay is better and will improve as we struggle to secure our first contract. USAirways offers me a recall with less comprehensive health insurance, less pay and the guarantee of bottom reserve for quite some time.
Perhaps it is the notion of returning to a Legacy Carrier, an airline whose history and name mean something to the public which causes me to even consider returning. I too feel like I have failed in the career having interviewed with; JetBlue, Airtran, and even FedEx.....without a job offer. I have landed at NAA. For some, that may seem like a farm team, not making it, not having the right stuff. Originally when I started this career, I thought I would end up at a major, but now........the majors are calling and everything in the minor leagues seems so much better. I make my decision to pass at USAirways on the information I have at hand. That is how an aviator should execute the decision making process, based on the best available information. It could turn out to be the wrong decision, but like an earlier post suggested, if you are able to enjoy what you do, and provide for your family, than you are a success. I have enjoyed reading the thoughts of fellow aviators on this subject of having to chose, and I hope that perhaps my experience and perspective may help others with this choice.

I apologize for the length of this submission, but I wish to say one more thing.

While at NAA, I had an amazing experience on the ramp in Kuwait City were I was able to bring a young Air Force Captains video message home to his parents , who had not talked to him in a while, saying " he was Ok...talk to you soon".

One of the very best experiences avaition has offered me.

God Bless.

 

[ALGFLYR]

Has anybody done the math to see who the new jumior man is? I'm trying to figure out how far back up the APL Charmane has to go. I don't have an updated APL, but who is 100 from the bottom excluding guys being HELD, on LOA, or MILITARY? Thanks for the guesses.

4lowed

This is a very tough one since before reaching the bottom, we don't know who accepted. I would suspect almost all of the former CEL pilots accepted a position. I personally know of two that will not. The "raw" numbers are as follows. I counted up 100 spots from the APL skipping all that are frozen. That put me at seniority number 4529 with a DOH of 1-17-2000. My guess is that many accepted that are not shown as such on the APL list I was using (4-12-07), so i counted up an additional 50 positions which put me at seniority number 4476 with a DOH of 11-29-1999. I'm hoping to get an updated APL list soon and will post if I find any more info...

 

[FurloughedAgain]

W_lloughby,

I know a few guys from ATA who went to NorthAmerican. Sounds like a pretty good operation. I wish you luck. Who knows? They may be the next successful LCC.

I was at AirTran for a brief time in 1998 and left there (well, was technically furloughed) to go to US Airways. Had I known then that they would be as successful as they are today, perhaps I would have gone back to AirTran when recalled instead of accepting USAir...

...Nah, probably not.

 

[Green]

I too, would like to share my thoughts on the notion of returning to USAirways. I intend to pass on USAirays for the non sched North American Airlines, which is where I am presently employed. I would like to share a brief synopsis of how I got to this point in my career and what I have learned aong the way. My first airline was GLA, I chose to fly for Great Lakes at lower pay, because I did not think it was right for a pilot to pay for his training. I was furloughed and subsequetly hired at Piedmont ( the old Henson Airlines), flying DHC 8 a/c. I upgraded in two and half years and flew as a Captain for four years. I was in the first class of pilots from the wholly owned USAirways Express carriers to fly the E170 for USAirways, MidAtlantic Airways. We were a tight group of pilots, we went by the motto 'All or None'. It was awesome, working at MidAtlantic. The pay was less than DHC 8 Captain pay, but it was enjoyable and I was still able to provide for my family. When we were furloughed and placed on the USAirways seniority list awaiting recall there were mixed emotions. It sucked being furoughed, but it felt warm and fuzzy knowing you had something to come back to. Furlough, aftr all, is part of the industry right? The AWA and USAirways merger created some anxiety for those of us that came from the Wholly owned's (CEL guys). There were rumors that we would have our names removed from the seniority list and lose that warm and fuzzy recall feeling. The integration was handled by a mediator that ulitmately decided on combined seniority list that truly favored the pilots at AWA, stapling all the furloughed USAirways pilots below the most junior AWA pilot. Now facing a recall to USAirways, comfortable at North American Airlines flying 757, and 767 a/c all over the word, you might say I am enjoying flying again. While we do have our share of uncertainty here at NAA as well, the future seems brighter here. The health insurance is better, the pay is better and will improve as we struggle to secure our first contract. USAirways offers me a recall with less comprehensive health insurance, less pay and the guarantee of bottom reserve for quite some time.
Perhaps it is the notion of returning to a Legacy Carrier, an airline whose history and name mean something to the public which causes me to even consider returning. I too feel like I have failed in the career having interviewed with; JetBlue, Airtran, and even FedEx.....without a job offer. I have landed at NAA. For some, that may seem like a farm team, not making it, not having the right stuff. Originally when I started this career, I thought I would end up at a major, but now........the majors are calling and everything in the minor leagues seems so much better. I make my decision to pass at USAirways on the information I have at hand. That is how an aviator should execute the decision making process, based on the best available information. It could turn out to be the wrong decision, but like an earlier post suggested, if you are able to enjoy what you do, and provide for your family, than you are a success. I have enjoyed reading the thoughts of fellow aviators on this subject of having to chose, and I hope that perhaps my experience and perspective may help others with this choice.

I apologize for the length of this submission, but I wish to say one more thing.

While at NAA, I had an amazing experience on the ramp in Kuwait City were I was able to bring a young Air Force Captains video message home to his parents , who had not talked to him in a while, saying " he was Ok...talk to you soon".

One of the very best experiences avaition has offered me.

God Bless.

I don't intend to sound like a jerk but have you considered taking a recall into the 330 or 767? Obviously the bad blood is running high over the arbitration but when you consider that LCC is making money inspite of itself right now plus the fact that we made over $500 million last year this very well could be a good place to be in the next 5-15+ years. Depending on age 60 there will be quite a few retirments coming this way and in the next 1 -2 weeks there should be a significant aircraft order announced.

Obviously LOA 93 is the worst contract in the industry but I would expect we'll have a new one within the next 12 months. Even under LOA 93 your pay should be comparable, if not better, than North American. Again I'm not trying to cast stones just throwing out some info...

You stated you loved working for MDA yet you wouldn't want to accept a mainline position making significantly more flying widebody aircraft? I just don't quite understand.


Here is a question to CEL pilots. Just out of curiosity do you think your recall to mainline was accelerated or hindered by the Nicalau award? Personally I think the Nicalau award helped the CEL pilots. The fact that so many furloughed original mainline pilots have turned down the recall out of percieved injustices has accelerated the calls down the list and makes it less likely that furloughees will accept recalls and come in senior to you..

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I dont think you have a choice to accept recall to the 767 / A330. The sad fact is that you are offered equipment that is available at the time of your class, in seniority order within the class.

That means that, once again, seniority is abrogated and ALPA remains silent. Example: A furloughee accepts recall and goes to class July 1st. In his class the A320 and 737 are available. He is the most junior pilot in the class and gets the 737. -- Two weeks later there is another class. Another (more junior) furloughee accepts recall to that class. In HIS class the 757 and A330 are available. He gets the A330 EVEN THOUGH HE IS JUNIOR to the senior pilot in the previous class.

See? The US Airways folks can't even handle seniority issues among themselves, much less within the context of a merger.

 

[IronCityBlue]

I dont think you have a choice to accept recall to the 767 / A330. The sad fact is that you are offered equipment that is available at the time of your class, in seniority order within the class.

That means that, once again, seniority is abrogated and ALPA remains silent. Example: A furloughee accepts recall and goes to class July 1st. In his class the A320 and 737 are available. He is the most junior pilot in the class and gets the 737. -- Two weeks later there is another class. Another (more junior) furloughee accepts recall to that class. In HIS class the 757 and A330 are available. He gets the A330 EVEN THOUGH HE IS JUNIOR to the senior pilot in the previous class.

See? The US Airways folks can't even handle seniority issues among themselves, much less within the context of a merger.

FA,

What is the freeze for a recalled pilot to company assigned equipment?

 

[Green]

I dont think you have a choice to accept recall to the 767 / A330. The sad fact is that you are offered equipment that is available at the time of your class, in seniority order within the class.

That means that, once again, seniority is abrogated and ALPA remains silent. Example: A furloughee accepts recall and goes to class July 1st. In his class the A320 and 737 are available. He is the most junior pilot in the class and gets the 737. -- Two weeks later there is another class. Another (more junior) furloughee accepts recall to that class. In HIS class the 757 and A330 are available. He gets the A330 EVEN THOUGH HE IS JUNIOR to the senior pilot in the previous class.

See? The US Airways folks can't even handle seniority issues among themselves, much less within the context of a merger.

Isn't that how it works at every airline in the world? Example....Let's say Fedex is having a class Jul 1st and then another class July 15th. The class starting on the 1st is all 727 FE positions while the class starting on the 15th turns out to be MD-11 spots. Was seniority abrogated when the junior pilots ended up in the widebodies? I'm sure all those senior pilots sitting on the panel of the 727 would much rather take the MD-11. The same thing happened at UAL back in the boom days when pilots were getting hired right into the 75/767 while more senior pilots were seatlocked on the 737. Those are the breaks.

Also you stated "once again seniority is abrogated and Alpa remains silent." So do YOU think you were screwed with the Nicalau award? Without getting personal what were your realistic chances of ever getting recalled to mainline? And the BIG question what would your longevity have been for pay purposes the day you got recalled to mainline equipment (73/320/757)?????? I believe it would it have been year 1 pay? How does that jive with the argument that CEL pilots were active mainline pilots? I don't think Nicalau threw you guys under the bus.

 

[imacdog]

I dont think you have a choice to accept recall to the 767 / A330. The sad fact is that you are offered equipment that is available at the time of your class, in seniority order within the class.

That means that, once again, seniority is abrogated and ALPA remains silent. Example: A furloughee accepts recall and goes to class July 1st. In his class the A320 and 737 are available. He is the most junior pilot in the class and gets the 737. -- Two weeks later there is another class. Another (more junior) furloughee accepts recall to that class. In HIS class the 757 and A330 are available. He gets the A330 EVEN THOUGH HE IS JUNIOR to the senior pilot in the previous class.

See? The US Airways folks can't even handle seniority issues among themselves, much less within the context of a merger.

Isn't this how it works everywhere? Luck of the draw applies to new hire classes everywhere too.

 

[weasel_lips]

The way I see it, accepting a US AIR recall is ONLY an option if you are unemployed and in desperate need of a job. It would be foolish to leave a stable job for that place. It is surprising people are getting hung up on the decision at all.

 

[Green]

The way I see it, accepting a US AIR recall is ONLY an option if you are unemployed and in desperate need of a job. It would be foolish to leave a stable job for that place. It is surprising people are getting hung up on the decision at all.

I disagree. I think it's hard to seperate frustration over the award from the decision making process. If i was in the right seat at JetBlue I would accept the recall. Likewise if I was at a non-sched that had made a significant portion of their profits from flying troops around during the last several years i would also accept a Us Airways recall. I think the key in this bizz is to try and project profits into the future and go work for those companies. The best job today will likely not be a good job in 5 years if the company has not positioned themselves well to deal with future market conditions. As much as i love to hate Parker if he can have the foresight to offer a decent contract and make the employees somewhat satisfied he will have this company postioned well.

Decisions made in anger are easy to screw up. I wonder if the UAL captain who left to go work for JetBlue out of frustration with United is happy with his/her decision. My .02 is worth what you paid for it but it never hurts to hear another opinion.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

When I said, "seniority is abrogated and ALPA remains silent." I was referring to the Metrojet launch fiasco when furloughees were recalled to Metrojet while newhires were put in higher paying positions on the DC9, MD80, 737, 757/767.

With regard to your other question, i'm not going to participate in an AWA/USAir peeing contest on this thread. There are plenty of threads for that.

 

[imadumbpilot]

Isn't that how it works at every airline in the world? Example....Let's say Fedex is having a class Jul 1st and then another class July 15th. The class starting on the 1st is all 727 FE positions while the class starting on the 15th turns out to be MD-11 spots. Was seniority abrogated when the junior pilots ended up in the widebodies? I'm sure all those senior pilots sitting on the panel of the 727 would much rather take the MD-11. The same thing happened at UAL back in the boom days when pilots were getting hired right into the 75/767 while more senior pilots were seatlocked on the 737. Those are the breaks.

No, it is not how it is handled everywhere else. At Continental they run a system bid, and you know what equipment you will be recalled into based on seniority. Now, with newhires, yes it is luck of the draw.

 

[TWA Dude]

Sorry to digress a little, but per a chief pilot in PHX recurrent training today off-the-street hiring (to the E190) could begin as soon as July. 28 out of 39 former AWA poolies verbally agreed to accept a class.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

That's a pretty big digression actually considering this is a thread about furloughed pilots trying to decide whether to accept recall.

 

[TWA Dude]

I hate starting new threads for relatively minor information.

 

[johnnyb]

He gets the A330 EVEN THOUGH HE IS JUNIOR to the senior pilot in the previous class.
See? The US Airways folks can't even handle seniority issues among themselves, much less within the context of a merger.

Seniority is no guarantee of circumstance. The guys accepting recall a year ago are senior but there were simply no openings on the A330 at the time nor the ability to see into the future as to how each pilot would structure their bid choices.

I agree bidding on positions prior to return is a good idea but Manglement is ( and always has at AAA ) resisting.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

You know, I guess there is a little bit more to look at. I've seen the payscales, but what is the retirement like now at USAir? What are the medical benefits like? Is there a commuter policy?

Could anyone fill in the blanks please?

 

[LittleDeuce]

A-330

Seniority is no guarantee of circumstance. The guys accepting recall a year ago are senior but there were simply no openings on the A330 at the time nor the ability to see into the future as to how each pilot would structure their bid choices.

I agree bidding on positions prior to return is a good idea but Manglement is ( and always has at AAA ) resisting.

The initial word is there will be 7 A-330 slots in the June 18 recall class. This is the first class on the present bid.

I will confirm tomorrow when the manuals arrive!