UPS MGMT Pilot -- Ready, Aim, Fire!

[SWA/FO]

Its not my cup of tea, but there are a lot of folks (even at FDX) who seem to like the training/LCA/ACP type life and schedules. Good luck in any case.

Yeah because the training is done during the day, thus easier on your body.

 

[sandman2122]

From my good buddy who's a UPS 75/76 Captain: " Just what does that tell you when they have to offer flt. management positions to newhires?........"

Probably noone else wants it????

Careful, my buddy also said flt. management duty times are not covered by the IPA contract. So when you fly with another management pilot expect looooooong duty day/nights........enjoy.

Any UPS guys care to confirm this.

 

[AA717driver]

Unless you are ferrying an aircraft (even that probably doesn't apply) you are bound by the op spex and FAR's. So 121 duty time limits would apply even to management pilots.

I'm like Albie, glad there's someone else out there to do the dirty work (firing, threatening, filling in during job actions, etc.) so I don't have to.TC

 

[Big Beer Belly]

From my good buddy who's a UPS 75/76 Captain: " Just what does that tell you when they have to offer flt. management positions to newhires?........"

Probably noone else wants it????

Careful, my buddy also said flt. management duty times are not covered by the IPA contract. So when you fly with another management pilot expect looooooong duty day/nights........enjoy.

Any UPS guys care to confirm this.

From the sound of a lot of these comments, many are uninformed about a UPS mgmt pilot position. In the absence of any first-hand knowledge, several posters have understandably assumed that the position must be one similar to their airline's mgmt pilots. These assumptions, though logical, are completely inaccurate.

There are about 180 management pilots at UPS. They are effectively an airline within an airline (a constant source of friction with the IPA). About 20 retire this year and thus UPS is on a crusade to hire replacements. They are not part of the IPA, they have no job protection, no line number, and cannot become a line pilot. They are a carryover from the trucking side (low worker number to supervisor ratio) and mostly serve in the training center, as check airman (living out of a suitcase and chasing crews around the world literally) or as asst chief pilots (ACP's). An ACP's authority is extremely limited ... ordering an additional catered meal for a crew would be a stretch without seeking approval from higher up ... I'm NOT kidding. They are a glamorized secretary in regards to their daily duties.

UPS is a top down organization (orders flow from above) and your choice is to carry them out or be FIRED! You will have no say in mgmt to make anything better if you are an idealist (as Albie suggested). The chief pilot and director of ops are both pilots, both largely neutered, do not work for the benefit of the line pilots as at other airlines, but simply carry out dictates from the truck drivers and bean counters running the company from Atlanta. The president of the airline portion of UPS is a trucker and I expect will always be. He is several steps below the board of directors for UPS.

Anyone with a military background would cringe at the chain of command here ... hubs, gateways, most airline related stuff falls under district and regional managers (ground guys ... trucking managers) area of responsibility. If there is a problem with (let's pick on catering again) at a gateway, a ground district manager is the person to eventually correct it ... not high on his priority list given his vast territory to manage. It is truly fouled up from an outsider's or pilot's point of view (there should be clear airline chain of command up to the board), but definitely in line with the trucking mentality and hourly/mgmt chasm that exists here.

FedEx began as an airline and did many things correctly from the beginning as it relates to respect for pilots. UPS not only began as a trucking company, it is a trucking company, and always will be a trucking company ... but with subsidiaries. Additionally UPS is stuck in a turn of the century labor vs mgmt mentality where the worker is inherently evil, will steal from the company if given the opportunity, and needs constant supervision to adequately perform his duties. Thus, the extremely high number of managers to line pilots (180 mgmt pilots for 3000 line pilots).

Finally, mgmt pilots are limited only by the FAR's, nothing else. They are perfectly legal to work in the office all day and then be on flight duty for 16 hours ... imagine flying after being up for 30+ hours ... all legal and I've seen it done.

I am very confident that if anyone speaks to any line pilot that has been here at least several years (more than a decade for me) you will get a substantially similar opinion about all that I've addressed.

BBB

 

[NoKoolAid]

I have to say the overwhelming response from line guys is NO. However, the management guys don't have the same perspective.

I appreciate all the inputs without bashing my situation. I'm 60/40 right now in favor of staying put at FredEx. Family considerations are the main motivation for me to even consider the move..

Selling my soul to any company is not what I am looking for. The flexibility, time off, and layers of protection as a union guy are my key reasons for staying put at FDX. From the many inputs against the job at UPS, the downside looks to outweigh the upside. I have an extensive background in instruction and enjoy it. I've always tried to make a positive impact and make a difference. It was rewarded in the military -- not so sure now that those efforts would be appreciated at Big Brown. I'm not a 20-year military guy, I don't drink Kool-Aid, and have an excellent reputation with my peers. It sounds like UPS needs more of the same -- it will most likely not be me.

Any additional thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Huck]

Family considerations are the main motivation for me to even consider the move..

Here's how I see it:

I want to protect my family by being the highest paid, most marketable professional pilot from now until my youngest gets out of college.

Maximizing time at home is not one of my goals. It's rough but I have to face it - this is the life we have chosen. My wife is a full-time mom, and I'm gone alot. I'll miss Thanksgiving and Christmas this year, as I have for the last 7 years. We'll learn to cope. And I STILL would rather have this lifestyle than punching in 8 to 5 every day.

Bottom line: I would keep my seniority, move to Mempho, play with my kids on reserve. But that's me - you got to pick your own poison....

 

[Captain Overs]

Big Beer Belly,

Nice post! I wish more people on this forum could give informative info without just spewing flame.

 

[fox3]

Go for it!

Since you're and MEM MD-11 F/O, obviously senior to me, I say go for it!:laugh:

 

[jester757]

For what it is worth...I know three other guys who have anywhere from 6-15 years with DAL who are looking/interviewing/been hired at UPS for this FMS position. So far one has been denied, one hired, one waiting to hear from round one, and one going in the next few weeks.

I guess it comes down to what your long term goals are. Right now most if not all airlines are in or about to be in the cross hairs for pay cuts, etc. I know one of the ACPs over there and he really likes the job. He has nothing but good comments about the company and position. Pay is awesome too. First year UPS FMS is about what a senior Captian at DAL will be making on the 777 after the hit them again for a paycut!

Family always should come first...as pilot I know I have gotten that out of order before. Good luck with you decision!!

 

[semperfido]

Here's the deal:

Current FedEx pilot, 6+ years seniority, ALPA committee member. Hometown is Louisville, tired of pounding it out on the road with FDX and working for Fred, looking for more stability at home, etc. Position requires relocation to SDF.
Requesting professional responses.

i think you would be nuts to make this change. move to mem and start enjoying what you do. 6 yrs and tired of it? i'm gonna bite my tongue.