sandman2122 said:
From my good buddy who's a UPS 75/76 Captain: " Just what does that tell you when they have to offer flt. management positions to newhires?........"
Probably noone else wants it????
Careful, my buddy also said flt. management duty times are not covered by the IPA contract. So when you fly with another management pilot expect looooooong duty day/nights........enjoy.
Any UPS guys care to confirm this.
From the sound of a lot of these comments, many are uninformed about a UPS mgmt pilot position. In the absence of any first-hand knowledge, several posters have understandably assumed that the position must be one similar to their airline's mgmt pilots. These assumptions, though logical, are completely inaccurate.
There are about 180 management pilots at UPS. They are effectively an airline within an airline (a constant source of friction with the IPA). About 20 retire this year and thus UPS is on a crusade to hire replacements. They are not part of the IPA, they have no job protection, no line number, and cannot become a line pilot. They are a carryover from the trucking side (low worker number to supervisor ratio) and mostly serve in the training center, as check airman (living out of a suitcase and chasing crews around the world literally) or as asst chief pilots (ACP's). An ACP's authority is extremely limited ... ordering an additional catered meal for a crew would be a stretch without seeking approval from higher up ... I'm NOT kidding. They are a glamorized secretary in regards to their daily duties.
UPS is a top down organization (orders flow from above) and your choice is to carry them out or be FIRED! You will have no say in mgmt to make anything better if you are an idealist (as Albie suggested). The chief pilot and director of ops are both pilots, both largely neutered, do not work for the benefit of the line pilots as at other airlines, but simply carry out dictates from the truck drivers and bean counters running the company from Atlanta. The president of the airline portion of UPS is a trucker and I expect will always be. He is several steps below the board of directors for UPS.
Anyone with a military background would cringe at the chain of command here ... hubs, gateways, most airline related stuff falls under district and regional managers (ground guys ... trucking managers) area of responsibility. If there is a problem with (let's pick on catering again) at a gateway, a ground district manager is the person to eventually correct it ... not high on his priority list given his vast territory to manage. It is truly fouled up from an outsider's or pilot's point of view (there should be clear airline chain of command up to the board), but definitely in line with the trucking mentality and hourly/mgmt chasm that exists here.
FedEx began as an airline and did many things correctly from the beginning as it relates to respect for pilots. UPS not only began as a trucking company, it is a trucking company, and always will be a trucking company ... but with subsidiaries. Additionally UPS is stuck in a turn of the century labor vs mgmt mentality where the worker is inherently evil, will steal from the company if given the opportunity, and needs constant supervision to adequately perform his duties. Thus, the extremely high number of managers to line pilots (180 mgmt pilots for 3000 line pilots).
Finally, mgmt pilots are limited only by the FAR's, nothing else. They are perfectly legal to work in the office all day and then be on flight duty for 16 hours ... imagine flying after being up for 30+ hours ... all legal and I've seen it done.
I am very confident that if anyone speaks to any line pilot that has been here at least several years (more than a decade for me) you will get a substantially similar opinion about all that I've addressed.
BBB
