UPS MGMT Pilot -- Ready, Aim, Fire!

NoKoolAid

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Here's the deal:

Current FedEx pilot, 6+ years seniority, ALPA committee member. Hometown is Louisville, tired of pounding it out on the road with FDX and working for Fred, looking for more stability at home, etc. Position requires relocation to SDF.

Recently interviewed for UPS mgmt pilot position. This is a 3-phase process and I completed phase one. Waiting for the results. I've networked extensively with line and mgmt pilots to gain a better understanding of the job profile and expectations. Mixed results and opinions to cover the entire spectrum. Pros and Cons on both sides.

I'm very fortunate to even be in the position to have a choice (if offered the job), given the current state of the industry. Requesting professional responses.

Thanks for your time.
 

Big Beer Belly

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NoKoolAid said:
Here's the deal:

Current FedEx pilot, 6+ years seniority, ALPA committee member. Hometown is Louisville, tired of pounding it out on the road with FDX and working for Fred, looking for more stability at home, etc. Position requires relocation to SDF.

Recently interviewed for UPS mgmt pilot position. This is a 3-phase process and I completed phase one. Waiting for the results. I've networked extensively with line and mgmt pilots to gain a better understanding of the job profile and expectations. Mixed results and opinions to cover the entire spectrum. Pros and Cons on both sides.

I'm very fortunate to even be in the position to have a choice (if offered the job), given the current state of the industry. Requesting professional responses.

Thanks for your time.

This post has got to be a joke. No one in their right mind would consider a mgmt position w/ UPS. Think of the worst part of the military and amplify it a hundred fold. No say over where you/your family are assigned (that's right ... you won't be in SDF for long and you won't have any say in the matter), no authority, speak the truth and try to change things = you're fired. If you've "networked extensively with line and mgmt" pilots and you are still confused, you're probably a good candidate for mgmt ... they hire lots of Jerry's kids. Oh, are you a SCAB? Darn near a prerequisite to be hired into UPS mgmt. Are you beginning to sense a trend? BTW, I'm one of the pilots with a better impression of our mgmt pilots ... and still feel this way. Are you prepared to spend the rest of your working life in a depressed, hostile environment? If so, welcome aboard ... just in time for the strike!
 

FNG_that's me

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Ok, I'm not taking into consideration the possibility of a true need to be in Louisville, like a sick family member, etc...

This story has the potential to be one of those that is told around the hub for years and years:

Poor John(or Jane), had 6 years with the company, could have held captain or decent f/o lines, getting paid the big bucks, growing the vacation year by year...then he/she took a job at Big Brown just as it was getting ugly during their last round of negotiations and now look at him. Fill in any possible bad outcome here. It just doesn't seem worth the risk...again, I don't know any special personal issues going on.

Didn't you guys have a captain leave for American in Aug '01? Don't be the next 'that guy.'

Maybe just call in sick a little more often or drop trips(if they let ya). But the first thing I would do is change your profile to be a little more anonymous...xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx...can't be too many of those in Memphis.

Good luck!
 
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cheater1239

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in my opinion, your age would play a role in deciding what is best for you. my take on the mgmt position is 10-12 years max. at fdx, if you are a junior capt now, your best years are yet to come. if you are a fairly senior f/o you should be working about 11-13 days per month. the mgmt thing is more like a mon thru fri thing, so more days than a line pilot will ever work. easier, but more days.
 

NoKoolAid

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BBB. FNG, and Cheater,

Thanks for not holding back! Comments are appreciated.

However, BBB, the scab reference is BS. I'm not a scab -- never have been and never will be.
 

Big Beer Belly

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NoKoolAid said:
However, BBB, the scab reference is BS. I'm not a scab -- never have been and never will be.


Let's see ... you've never worked for UPS ... and you're saying that my reference to UPS knowingly hiring SCABS into mgmt pilot positions is BS? LOL! I could name a half dozen mgmt pilot SCABS off the top of my head and those names are easily verified online against ALPA's list. Still think I'm full of BS?

No where did I accuse you of BEING a SCAB. I merely said that IF you are, you will find yourself in good company in the UPS mgmt pilot ranks. Your READY, FIRE, AIM style will fit right in at UPS should you choose that path.

Like I said ... your post sounds like flamebait. In the off chance you are actually sincere, you might want to consider why UPS is forced into hiring mgmt pilots off the street ... given that we have nearly 3000 line pilots ... all with experience dealing with UPS mgmt ... and all 3000 refuse the "offer" to be "promoted" into mgmt at this trucking company.

BBB
 

Captain Overs

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I think the initial post has to be flame bait. Why would someone with 6 years at FDX leave to go to UPS Management? Louisville isn't that far from Memphis. I would think you could hold a good line like someone mentioned above.

If this is a serious post maybe you should consider a seperate career completely outside of aviation. Some people can never be happy in aviation. Some pilots could make $1 million a month and only have to work one day a week and they would bitch because that day is Sunday.
 
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WhiteCloud

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Are you really executive material? If yes then require substantial moving expenses, multi-year contract and a golden parachute that would compensate you for some of the hundreds of thousands (or millions of dollars)you'll be giving up at FedEX if it doesn't work out. I also understand that once you leave the pilot group at UPS for UPS management there is no return route to the line. This may have changed but I remember it published in some FAPA employment rag many years ago. If you're potential employment stature at UPS doesn't warrant these things then the answer is an emphatic NO.
 

HalinTexas

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ATA has a flight ops. managment type leaving for a similar position over at UPS.

Interesting. Wonder what's going on over there.
 

AlbieF15

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I know a former Eagle driver who is in Mgt at UPS. If you want to lead, have an impact on the workforce, and live in your hometown...it might work. You would have the chance to keep flying (some) but not have to live out of a suitcase. Those guys throwing spears may not have the same reference point as you do... They also may not understand "management pilot" is not an entry level paycheck either--if numbers a former client shared with me are accurate you shouldn't be losing any money.

Big question for you is do you give up airline flexibility for management job? Its not my cup of tea, but there are a lot of folks (even at FDX) who seem to like the training/LCA/ACP type life and schedules. I'm glad there are good folks who want the job so I don't have to do it.

Good luck in any case.
 

SWA/FO

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AlbieF15 said:
Its not my cup of tea, but there are a lot of folks (even at FDX) who seem to like the training/LCA/ACP type life and schedules. Good luck in any case.

Yeah because the training is done during the day, thus easier on your body.
 

sandman2122

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From my good buddy who's a UPS 75/76 Captain: " Just what does that tell you when they have to offer flt. management positions to newhires?........"

Probably noone else wants it????

Careful, my buddy also said flt. management duty times are not covered by the IPA contract. So when you fly with another management pilot expect looooooong duty day/nights........enjoy.

Any UPS guys care to confirm this.
 
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AA717driver

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Unless you are ferrying an aircraft (even that probably doesn't apply) you are bound by the op spex and FAR's. So 121 duty time limits would apply even to management pilots.

I'm like Albie, glad there's someone else out there to do the dirty work (firing, threatening, filling in during job actions, etc.) so I don't have to.TC
 

Big Beer Belly

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sandman2122 said:
From my good buddy who's a UPS 75/76 Captain: " Just what does that tell you when they have to offer flt. management positions to newhires?........"

Probably noone else wants it????

Careful, my buddy also said flt. management duty times are not covered by the IPA contract. So when you fly with another management pilot expect looooooong duty day/nights........enjoy.

Any UPS guys care to confirm this.


From the sound of a lot of these comments, many are uninformed about a UPS mgmt pilot position. In the absence of any first-hand knowledge, several posters have understandably assumed that the position must be one similar to their airline's mgmt pilots. These assumptions, though logical, are completely inaccurate.

There are about 180 management pilots at UPS. They are effectively an airline within an airline (a constant source of friction with the IPA). About 20 retire this year and thus UPS is on a crusade to hire replacements. They are not part of the IPA, they have no job protection, no line number, and cannot become a line pilot. They are a carryover from the trucking side (low worker number to supervisor ratio) and mostly serve in the training center, as check airman (living out of a suitcase and chasing crews around the world literally) or as asst chief pilots (ACP's). An ACP's authority is extremely limited ... ordering an additional catered meal for a crew would be a stretch without seeking approval from higher up ... I'm NOT kidding. They are a glamorized secretary in regards to their daily duties.

UPS is a top down organization (orders flow from above) and your choice is to carry them out or be FIRED! You will have no say in mgmt to make anything better if you are an idealist (as Albie suggested). The chief pilot and director of ops are both pilots, both largely neutered, do not work for the benefit of the line pilots as at other airlines, but simply carry out dictates from the truck drivers and bean counters running the company from Atlanta. The president of the airline portion of UPS is a trucker and I expect will always be. He is several steps below the board of directors for UPS.

Anyone with a military background would cringe at the chain of command here ... hubs, gateways, most airline related stuff falls under district and regional managers (ground guys ... trucking managers) area of responsibility. If there is a problem with (let's pick on catering again) at a gateway, a ground district manager is the person to eventually correct it ... not high on his priority list given his vast territory to manage. It is truly fouled up from an outsider's or pilot's point of view (there should be clear airline chain of command up to the board), but definitely in line with the trucking mentality and hourly/mgmt chasm that exists here.

FedEx began as an airline and did many things correctly from the beginning as it relates to respect for pilots. UPS not only began as a trucking company, it is a trucking company, and always will be a trucking company ... but with subsidiaries. Additionally UPS is stuck in a turn of the century labor vs mgmt mentality where the worker is inherently evil, will steal from the company if given the opportunity, and needs constant supervision to adequately perform his duties. Thus, the extremely high number of managers to line pilots (180 mgmt pilots for 3000 line pilots).

Finally, mgmt pilots are limited only by the FAR's, nothing else. They are perfectly legal to work in the office all day and then be on flight duty for 16 hours ... imagine flying after being up for 30+ hours ... all legal and I've seen it done.

I am very confident that if anyone speaks to any line pilot that has been here at least several years (more than a decade for me) you will get a substantially similar opinion about all that I've addressed.

BBB
 

NoKoolAid

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I have to say the overwhelming response from line guys is NO. However, the management guys don't have the same perspective.

I appreciate all the inputs without bashing my situation. I'm 60/40 right now in favor of staying put at FredEx. Family considerations are the main motivation for me to even consider the move..

Selling my soul to any company is not what I am looking for. The flexibility, time off, and layers of protection as a union guy are my key reasons for staying put at FDX. From the many inputs against the job at UPS, the downside looks to outweigh the upside. I have an extensive background in instruction and enjoy it. I've always tried to make a positive impact and make a difference. It was rewarded in the military -- not so sure now that those efforts would be appreciated at Big Brown. I'm not a 20-year military guy, I don't drink Kool-Aid, and have an excellent reputation with my peers. It sounds like UPS needs more of the same -- it will most likely not be me.

Any additional thoughts are appreciated.
 

Huck

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Family considerations are the main motivation for me to even consider the move..

Here's how I see it:

I want to protect my family by being the highest paid, most marketable professional pilot from now until my youngest gets out of college.

Maximizing time at home is not one of my goals. It's rough but I have to face it - this is the life we have chosen. My wife is a full-time mom, and I'm gone alot. I'll miss Thanksgiving and Christmas this year, as I have for the last 7 years. We'll learn to cope. And I STILL would rather have this lifestyle than punching in 8 to 5 every day.

Bottom line: I would keep my seniority, move to Mempho, play with my kids on reserve. But that's me - you got to pick your own poison....
 
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Captain Overs

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Big Beer Belly,

Nice post! I wish more people on this forum could give informative info without just spewing flame.
 

fox3

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Go for it!

Since you're and MEM MD-11 F/O, obviously senior to me, I say go for it!:laugh:
 

jester757

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Huh?
For what it is worth...I know three other guys who have anywhere from 6-15 years with DAL who are looking/interviewing/been hired at UPS for this FMS position. So far one has been denied, one hired, one waiting to hear from round one, and one going in the next few weeks.

I guess it comes down to what your long term goals are. Right now most if not all airlines are in or about to be in the cross hairs for pay cuts, etc. I know one of the ACPs over there and he really likes the job. He has nothing but good comments about the company and position. Pay is awesome too. First year UPS FMS is about what a senior Captian at DAL will be making on the 777 after the hit them again for a paycut!

Family always should come first...as pilot I know I have gotten that out of order before. Good luck with you decision!!
 

semperfido

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NoKoolAid said:
Here's the deal:

Current FedEx pilot, 6+ years seniority, ALPA committee member. Hometown is Louisville, tired of pounding it out on the road with FDX and working for Fred, looking for more stability at home, etc. Position requires relocation to SDF.
Requesting professional responses.

i think you would be nuts to make this change. move to mem and start enjoying what you do. 6 yrs and tired of it? i'm gonna bite my tongue. :)
 
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