United

[labbats]

I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree, so I was looking to this board to help me understand something.

United is trying to exit bankruptcy through dumping its pensions. Wouldn't it be better for all involved for them to simply go under? I'm not saying this with malice, but even those who may lose their jobs would be better off if they still had a pension to begin with, and other airlines wouldn't see this as a loophole they could use to boost profits. Simply put, wouldn't it be a better overall answer for United to simply fold rather than set a precedent of pension raiding to overcome bankruptcy? People would lose their seniority and jobs, yes, and that is terrible, but the other option is everyone else in this industry losing their promised retirement.

 

[JetScreamDriver]

Pensions?

I believe that US Air already set the precedent for dumping the pensions. The pension is a thing we will never see again on the large scale. Sure there are some still out there.

I can't see a benefit to UAL going under. Think about it, you have 20 years seniority, and 10 years left. There is no way it's better to start all over again at the bottom. You're not going to get a pension anywhere else!

Try to think of a benefit to your airline just going away.

We need to stick together as pilots. Not hope the other guy loses out so that we can benefit. It seems that pilots are pilots own worst enemy.

 

[skykid]

I'm not saying this with malice, but even those who may lose their jobs would be better off if they still had a pension to begin with,

If United goes under the current and former employees still lose their pensions. It sounds like you think a liquidation would mean they get to keep pensions. They would be funded at the same level either way, only with a liquidation there are no replacement defined contribution type retirement plans.

People would lose their seniority and jobs, yes, and that is terrible, but the other option is everyone else in this industry losing their promised retirement.

The problem is, the trend is already no defined benefit pensions. I would opine that regardless of what happens to United, the legacies with pensions still have to deal with Frontier, Airtran, Southwest, and JetBlue, all of which have less expensive defined contribution plans. Of the LCCs I just mentioned, I hope Airtran's retirement plan will be the model - check out their B plan - very respectable, and head and shoulders above a matching 401K.

​

 

[Airbusnut1]

I don't see how letting an other airline go under works for anyone else but the competition. Are you saying that I should give up my job for the greater good of the rest of the industry, and then you all can enjoy the fruits of good times and enjoy your life, and I should feel all warm and fuzzy because your life is better at my expense.
Guess what Genuis, I worked long and hard to get where I am now, and what is in it for me?
The fact that you may want a good life in this industry meens nothing to me.
I want one too.
So get off your butt and work for it, don't expect me to roll over and give it to you,because you work for someone that is doing OK for the moment.
Your time on the other end of the pendulem will come.
Before you post some drivel like you just did, think about what the other end of the spectrum looks like before you start spouting off.
We all work for bettering our lives, And I'll be dammed if I will let some jerk off say on these boards that they deserve to have something that I have worked Damn hard for, just because it's for the good of them,without a rebuttal.

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?
Are you better than the rest of us?
Let it fly now folks. I'm ready for the replys

 

[skykid]

Airbusnut, I don't think labbats post was meant to be mean spirited - look at how he starts off saying he is not the brightest bulb.

Fact is, people look out for their own best interests, and there are many hoping for the demise of others. Just look how much negative stuff is posted on here compared to positive. Whatever.

 

[labbats]

I don't see how letting an other airline go under works for anyone else but the competition. Are you saying that I should give up my job for the greater good of the rest of the industry, and then you all can enjoy the fruits of good times and enjoy your life, and I should feel all warm and fuzzy because your life is better at my expense.
Guess what Genuis, I worked long and hard to get where I am now, and what is in it for me?
The fact that you may want a good life in this industry meens nothing to me.
I want one too.
So get off your butt and work for it, don't expect me to roll over and give it to you,because you work for someone that is doing OK for the moment.
Your time on the other end of the pendulem will come.
Before you post some drivel like you just did, think about what the other end of the spectrum looks like before you start spouting off.
We all work for bettering our lives, And I'll be dammed if I will let some jerk off say on these boards that they deserve to have something that I have worked dang hard for, just because it's for the good of them,without a rebuttal.

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?
Are you better than the rest of us?
Let it fly now folks. I'm ready for the replys

Ready? Fire! Aim!

I saw this coming. I'll say it again. I just wanted to understand the big picture, and the media hasn't been much help to say the least. However, the above posts cleared it up. Thank you.

 

[Ralgha]

Ready? Fire! Aim!

Actually I think it's "Aim! Fire! Ready?".

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Anyone know how many are still furloughed and how many they have called back or plan to?

 

[Ty Webb]

I don't see how letting an other airline go under works for anyone else but the competition.

Well, buddy, you lost me here, because "letting your airline go under" would be preferable to letting it operate for years in bankruptcy, while the rest of us have to pay our bills.

So get off your butt and work for it, don't expect me to roll over and give it to you,because you work for someone that is doing OK for the moment.

KInd of like what the taxpayers might be saying to United, especially after getting saddled with your pension payments.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

I believe that US Air already set the precedent for dumping the pensions. The pension is a thing we will never see again on the large scale. Sure there are some still out there.

I can't see a benefit to UAL going under. Think about it, you have 20 years seniority, and 10 years left. There is no way it's better to start all over again at the bottom. You're not going to get a pension anywhere else!

Try to think of a benefit to your airline just going away.

We need to stick together as pilots. Not hope the other guy loses out so that we can benefit. It seems that pilots are pilots own worst enemy.

Our ALPA brothers and sisters blew it years ago when they couldn't come to grips with forming a real national seniority list.

A pilot with 20 years in and 10 left will do most anything to keep his/her job (paycuts, loss of pension, benefits, etc...). Jetscream is correct. These people don't want to start over again. When faced with the reality of taking a 50% paycut (still making $100k/yr), loss of pension, etc... OR starting over again at the bottom making $40k/yr and still no pension - what would you do? I'd try to save my $100k job with every ounce of strength. It $ucks, but it could be worse.

Cheers!

GP

 

[787]

Well, well...I say let's checkin with reality. 6 UAL jets reposessed by creditors 2 weeks ago. US house voted NOT to allow PBCG to assume UAL's massive pension problem. Senate votes next week. The real mccoy will be show when UAL mgmt reports to the Court this week. I think the UAL problem has been in the making since the mid 90's. I was very suprised to hear that while making record profits in the 90's UAL was paying the bear minimum on pensions with borrowed money. labbats is on the right track.

 

[koko nw]

"KInd of like what the taxpayers might be saying to United, especially after getting saddled with your pension payments.[/QUOTE]"

Ty, Nice spin.....UAL along with other companies have been paying to the PBGC monies in order for the pensions to be insured, I believe it's called a premium. Sort of like your car insuraunce, albeit on a grander scale.

You nor the taxpayers are getting " saddled " with their pensions.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers

 

[koko nw]

I was very suprised to hear that while making record profits in the 90's UAL was paying the bear minimum on pensions with borrowed money. labbats is on the right track.

You guy's kill me ...Where did you get this stuff from?

 

[Ralgha]

Well, well...I say let's checkin with reality. 6 UAL jets reposessed by creditors 2 weeks ago. US house voted NOT to allow PBCG to assume UAL's massive pension problem.

Actually they voted to restrict the PBCG from using government money (ie taxes) to fund the pensions. Since the PBCG doesn't use government money anyway, it didn't mean much.

 

[B6Driver]

Years ago while jump seating to ORD on United in 1991, the captain of the united flight during our conversation about where I worked told me that my current airline, TWA was guilty of holding down the industry pay rates and if we would just go out of business, that it would help everyone's pay increase. I politely replied that I was sorry he felt that way but with all due respect, I wanted TWA to survive and I felt that he was out of line in saying that. He replied that I would just get on at United and things would be OK. I replied with, "sorry but you don't do the hiring at United and I was quite happy working at TWA and he was being a tad bit selfish.
The rest of the flight was a quiet one. Imagine that.
Now we move ahead 14 years.....................I would love to talk with that same captain.
Depending upon where you sit determines your view of the world around you.
Then and now I still think that guy was a jerk!

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty, Nice spin.....UAL along with other companies have been paying to the PBGC monies in order for the pensions to be insured, I believe it's called a premium. Sort of like your car insuraunce, albeit on a grander scale.

You nor the taxpayers are getting " saddled " with their pensions.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Cheers

Not now, we're not . . . . but if the other airlines follow UAL's "shining example". the PBGC will need a bailout . . . from Uncle Sam. And who is Uncle Sam?

You betcha.

 

[seefive]

1. lawmakers voted not to let taxpayers pay for UAL pensions, not the PBGC. taxpayers won't be paying apparently.
2. national seniority list....yeah that's reasonable. why don't we just have national seniority list for every job in the US.
3. airbusnut.......you're not a bit stressed are you? takin' out a little anger on someone who doesn't understand your plight is a bit overboard for a message board.

 

[Ty Webb]

national seniority list....yeah that's reasonable. why don't we just have national seniority list for every job in the US.

I don;t think you quite get it. It's not a national seniority list . . . it is a professional association that sets minimum pay and basic protections for any pilot. Your union and company can always agree to something above it, but not below it. In other words, no more financing losing business plans or rising oil costs with pilot give backs . . . . . think like the Bar Assoc or the AMA . . . . or the Actors Guild, etc.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Years ago while jump seating to ORD on United in 1991, the captain of the united flight during our conversation about where I worked told me that my current airline, TWA was guilty of holding down the industry pay rates and if we would just go out of business, that it would help everyone's pay increase. I politely replied that I was sorry he felt that way but with all due respect, I wanted TWA to survive and I felt that he was out of line in saying that. He replied that I would just get on at United and things would be OK. I replied with, "sorry but you don't do the hiring at United and I was quite happy working at TWA and he was being a tad bit selfish.
The rest of the flight was a quiet one. Imagine that.
Now we move ahead 14 years.....................I would love to talk with that same captain.
Depending upon where you sit determines your view of the world around you.
Then and now I still think that guy was a jerk!

Sounds like the same UA Capt. that lectured me around that time. He said Am West (my employer at the time) was dragging down the industry and "airlines shouldn't be allowed to go Ch 11, they should just go away". Wonder how his tune has changed, now?

 

[koko nw]

Not now, we're not . . . . but if the other airlines follow UAL's "shining example". the PBGC will need a bailout . . . from Uncle Sam. And who is Uncle Sam?

You betcha.

Ty, your overzealous hatred of all things UAL, is amazing.

"shining example". Where was your outrage Ty, when USAir dumped there pensions? Or was that part of history conviently left out out?

I usually enjoy your acidic and to the point banter, but man you need to let go....

Best to ya Ty

 

[AA717driver]

I don't see how letting an other airline go under works for anyone else but the competition. Are you saying that I should give up my job for the greater good of the rest of the industry, and then you all can enjoy the fruits of good times and enjoy your life, and I should feel all warm and fuzzy because your life is better at my expense.
Guess what Genuis, I worked long and hard to get where I am now, and what is in it for me?
The fact that you may want a good life in this industry meens nothing to me.
I want one too.
So get off your butt and work for it, don't expect me to roll over and give it to you,because you work for someone that is doing OK for the moment.
Your time on the other end of the pendulem will come.
Before you post some drivel like you just did, think about what the other end of the spectrum looks like before you start spouting off.
We all work for bettering our lives, And I'll be dammed if I will let some jerk off say on these boards that they deserve to have something that I have worked dang hard for, just because it's for the good of them,without a rebuttal.

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?
Are you better than the rest of us?
Let it fly now folks. I'm ready for the replys

HA! HA! HA! Man, that's a good one. Sorry, my sympathy meter's pegged at zero. You guys turned your backs on PanAm, EAL and TWA--you were too busy upgrading to be bothered, and now you wonder why no one gives a crap about your exhalted career being in shambles.

My advice to you, son, is to get your resume together and start networking just like me and nearly 2,000 of my fellow TWA pilots who are on the street did when we lost our careers.

And, yes, I intend to be condescending. Just returning the favor.TC

 

[skykid]

The "shining example" United and I believe the other legacies will have to follow, is where the LCCs start with their retirement plans. The days of a healthy A AND B fund are gone forever. I point that out only because it is a little silly for some to point fingers and get POed when the legacy airlines shed compensation and benefits to compete. What did you think was going to happen? Common sense.
Again, I understand that defined benefit pensions are a thing of the past and would not be offering them in any business I'd start. I'm only pointing out the irony in someone who flies for a LCC begrudging what is taking place for the legacies to compete.

Thanks for pointing out United doesn't have to pay bills. I have been wondering what those operating expenses were on the 8-K filings. I guess they just get to make up a number and fill in that blank.

 

[skykid]

You guys turned your backs on PanAm, EAL and TWA--you were too busy upgrading to be bothered

Agreed, United pilots caused the demise of these airlines. We also turned our backs on all orphans, WWII veterans, and battered housewifes. Its that UAL pilot that B6Driver flew with in 1991 and Oldxfr8dog remembers - he is the ringleader and it is certainly intelligent to lump the whole group together.

 

[Boeingman]

I don't see how letting an other airline go under works for anyone else but the competition. Are you saying that I should give up my job for the greater good of the rest of the industry, and then you all can enjoy the fruits of good times and enjoy your life, and I should feel all warm and fuzzy because your life is better at my expense.
Guess what Genuis, I worked long and hard to get where I am now, and what is in it for me?
The fact that you may want a good life in this industry meens nothing to me.
I want one too.
So get off your butt and work for it, don't expect me to roll over and give it to you,because you work for someone that is doing OK for the moment.
Your time on the other end of the pendulem will come.
Before you post some drivel like you just did, think about what the other end of the spectrum looks like before you start spouting off.
We all work for bettering our lives, And I'll be dammed if I will let some jerk off say on these boards that they deserve to have something that I have worked dang hard for, just because it's for the good of them,without a rebuttal.

WHO THE HELL ARE YOU?
Are you better than the rest of us?
Let it fly now folks. I'm ready for the replys

Did you ever wear one of those "TORQUE" pins? You know, the ones I used to see on so many UAL guys while they would lecture the CAL pilots to "fall on our swords for the good of the industry".

 

[Boeingman]

The "shining example" United and I believe the other legacies will have to follow, is where the LCCs start with their retirement plans. The days of a healthy A AND B fund are gone forever. I point that out only because it is a little silly for some to point fingers and get POed when the legacy airlines shed compensation and benefits to compete. What did you think was going to happen? Common sense.

Agreed. However with Billions in assets still on hand, UAL (or any other company) should be forced to liquidate such assets to fund their pension obligations prior to an outright default.

The bankruptcy laws need a major rewrite for this as pension underfunding will mirror the the S&L crisis of the 80's. The way it is now, only the employees (i.e. peons) get screwed.

 

[Malcolm]

Can we at least "pretend" to show some sort of compassion for peers that are going through bad/tragic life times in this industry.

To single out an entire Pilot group as A-holes, and scoff/cheer/narrate their career struggles because of some idiot at that same company was a jerk...... is ridiculous.

Here is a news flash... people are jerks in all walks of life, all the time, at all companies successful or failing.... we're all just pilots doing the SAME job.

Get over the vengeful/hateful/spiteful/ attitudes.... please.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Can we at least "pretend" to show some sort of compassion for peers that are going through bad/tragic life times in this industry.

To single out an entire Pilot group as A-holes, and scoff/cheer/narrate their career struggles because of some idiot at that same company was a jerk...... is ridiculous.

Here is a news flash... people are jerks in all walks of life, all the time, at all companies successful or failing.... we're all just pilots doing the SAME job.

Get over the vengeful/hateful/spiteful/ attitudes.... please.

WHOA!!!
Wait a minute! I have friends at UA and have been shown much professional courtesy by UA crews over the span of my career. Just because I display a little (juvenile) glee at the come-uppance of one sanctimonious jerk doesn't mean I condemn the entire group!
Actually, there has been a couple... But I still don't wish ill on the company.

 

[joevollers]

I have to wonder if UA pilots would be in a much different position if they did not take the "lets kick 'em where it hurts" attitiude during the summer of 2000

I was flying out of DEN that summer and knew more than one business traveler that switched to F9 for good because they did not feel like they could rely on UAL.

I feel that work slow downs are counter-productive.. Vote to strike or don't--- but do the best job you know how until you vote!

 

[skykid]

Agreed. However with Billions in assets still on hand, UAL (or any other company) should be forced to liquidate such assets to fund their pension obligations prior to an outright default.

My guess is you will have a different outlook when it happens to you. With the way this industry goes, you are going to be fortunate, and I hope you are, for CAL not to go Ch11 for the 3rd time.

Not now, we're not . . . . but if the other airlines follow UAL's "shining example". the PBGC will need a bailout . . . from Uncle Sam. And who is Uncle Sam?

Over 1.5 billion gross a month, been around 80 years. How many times over and over and over do you think United has generated the tax revenue to pay for any future PBCG bailout? How bout just the last decade? Its unimaginable. How many months would it take while United is still operating to pay for it again? How many times over do you think United employees have paid in taxes for any PBCG shortfall? How about the other companies that have generated revenue because of United? If you want United to go under so you can feel superior or perceive you will have better job security, say so. The Uncle Sam bailout argument, esp when even the PBGC knows a surviving United helps their balance sheet, is weak.

 

[HawkI]

I've heard a lot of talk about a national union, (bar association...whatever). I may be wrong, but I think that is what the ship captains (as in ocean vessels) did to protect their jobs. The only thing they got for it, now most ships are registered in foreign countrys to avoid them. And our laws may not allow this for airplanes now, but if push came to shove, powerfull lobbyists could get that changed.