United and Continental Talking....

[whymeworry?]

ACTIVE[/color] pilots on each list as the basis to determine percentages. You then take each pilot's relative position on their current list and determine their percentage. You then integrate the two lists strictly by percentage carried out to some mutually agreed decimal point. Because of the difference in size of the two pilot groups, individual percentages will mostly differ slightly. If you have two guys with the same exact %, then you go by DOB, then alphabetically by last name if they have the same DOB. quote]

I agree. Under the guidelines of the APLA merger policy of course.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Don't you mean because of the mother-effing scabs?

I think CAL would accept a very close version of DOH, I think it's fair. Merge lists immediately with no furlough clause, put hiring on hold. Bring back UAL furloughs and allow them to then bid their seniority until hiring becomes necessary. CAL's list is not in DOH order due to mergers, this would have to be resolved.

 

[Flopgut]

WhyMeWorry:

I'm not so personally interested in the WB flying, that's where the big dollars are. What I'm trying to illustrate is this: Just make a mental note of about where we would all end up using DOH and years of service, and then compare that to how things go with arbitration, and we'll see if it was worth it (if this goes thru). You can't beat an animal (like a horse) that will come right to you and wants to be kind. Do, and you've forever spoiled any relationship. That's kind of what we have going here, we have a chance to go forward on mutual trust and benefit. We start to lash at them and I'm sure they are going to lash back; I'm not sure you know how hard they can hit. They aren't weak and they aren't stupid. It would be nice if we could keep a potential deal as friendly as possible. The CAL pilots most concerned about this aren't the junior ones (Kramer's friend not so delicately illustrates this sentiment in the above post), this could get real ugly.

 

[Andy]

Under no circumstances should a NON-ACTIVE pilot displace ANY individual who is currently employed at either CAL or UAL. If they bypassed recall, they should have a "drop-dead" date by which they will be required to return to employment or waive seniority rights. They should have to be ACTIVE pilots on the effective date of the integration. NON-ACTIVE pilots (furloughees) get stapled on the bottom of the list in their original seniority order and return when recalled to the bottom of the list.

Not to toss more fuel on the fire, but anyone who bypassed recall (such as myself; offered 25 Sep 06 class date) can return at any time (I will be in the 22 Jan 07 class) until the seniority list is gone through in reverse seniority order. At that time, a bypassing pilot will either accept recall or vacate the seniority list. I'm willing to bet that ~700 pilots will not return to United.

The estimated timeframe for United reaching the bottom of the seniority list is the end of Feb/early Mar 07. I estimate that United will go through the seniority list in reverse order by the end of June 07. So active/inactive pilot is not going to be a factor in any seniority integration.

Please try to refrain from using the word 'staple;' as soon as that word gets used in ANY seniority integration discussion, a free for all usually ensues on both sides. I caution all United pilots to also refrain from using that word.

 

[Andy]

Well, you make a good point. But be ready for them to want to fence us out of the 747-400 and whatever replaces it, along with 3/4 of the 777 flying. I wouldn't be surprised if UAL ran a bid soon that will show everybody back on property.

It will be arbitrated. It would be nice if we didn't have to.

As for everybody being back on property at UAL, see post above.

I don't believe in fences. If a former CAL pilot wants to bid the 400 based out of LAX and fly the LAX-SYD route, he should not be restricted from doing so. If a former CAL pilot wants to domicile in DEN, he should not be restricted from doing so. If a former UAL pilot wants to bid EWR, he should not be restricted from doing so. I think that any domicile and aircraft should be available to ALL pilots. This fencing is the stuff that created so much acrimony with the NWA/Republic merger.
Fences deprive each side of what could be a win-win. And bottom line is, seniority rules. Which is why seniority integration is such a contraversial subject to discuss. We have competing ideas of what is 'fair.' I ask that each side put themselves in the other party's shoes for a moment and refrain from using the keyboard as a weapon.

And two more points:
1) Nothing said on this board will effect the outcome. Rather, let's try to use it as a method of understanding each other's concerns.
2) There has not been any formal announcement; we may be getting our panties in a wad and making enemies of each other over nothing. To this day, there remains some friction between UAL and USAirways east.

 

[Andy]

Explain to me again why Continental would ruin their product with UAL employees???

Thanks for the flamebait.

All others, please ignore imfloodedII. I realize it's hard to ignore someone with curly orange hair, a big red nose that squeaks, a flower in his lapel that sprays water, and a shoe size larger than his IQ.

 

[fatboyplt]

Here's one. Has it occured to anyone that perhaps that the respective merger commitees are already in communcation with one another. Resolving the relavent issues. After all this CAL/UAL rumor has been around for quite sometime on the UA property.
Perhaps it has as well at CA if some of our colleagues would care to respond.

Birdman
BTV

 

[Flopgut]

Here's one. Has it occured to anyone that perhaps that the respective merger commitees are already in communcation with one another. Resolving the relavent issues. After all this CAL/UAL rumor has been around for quite sometime on the UA property.
Perhaps it has as well at CA if some of our colleagues would care to respond.

Birdman
BTV

I contacted my rep and suggested we (both merger committees) preempt the deal with an actual plan, not just merger policy. I don't know what's going on for sure. You guys actually did a simplified list I think.

 

[SuperFLUF]

....Perhaps it has as well at CA if some of our colleagues would care to respond.....

It has been around at CAL just as long. When Bethune was still here I'm sure you remember him playing up how well he thought it would work while UAL was in ch11.

He has told line pilots on a few flights that it didn't go through because Tilton wanted to run the show.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Blloomberg: If deal is done, Continental is seen the boss

"If deal is done, Continental is seen the boss"

Better management cited
Posted by the Asbury Park Press on 12/15/06
BLOOMBERG NEWS SERVICE

UAL Corp.'s United Airlines employees may end up taking orders from the management of smaller rival Continental Airlines Inc. should the two carriers decide to merge.

UAL Chief Executive Officer Glenn Tilton's public advocacy of airline consolidation doesn't mean that he'd stay around to run a United-Continental combination, said Julius Maldutis, president of New York-based Aviation Dynamics Inc.

"Continental will be the one who will be doing the acquiring, not United," Maldutis said Wednesday as the merger talks were disclosed by people familiar with the discussions. "They've got a stronger management. They've changed the culture at Continental. Tilton and company want to cash out."

A tie-up between United, based in Elk Grove, Illinois, and Continental, Newark Liberty International Airport's largest carrier, would create the world's largest carrier by passenger traffic, overtaking AMR Corp.'s American Airlines. With no public proposal on the table, Maldutis and other analysts are assessing what a merged carrier might look like.

Under CEO Larry Kellner, Houston-based Continental is one of the best-managed U.S. airlines, said Jon Ash, president of InterVistas-GA2 consulting firm in Washington. Its shares have more than doubled this year to lead the Bloomberg U.S. Airlines Index.

"If there is a combination, I'd see Continental taking over United and, in effect, running it," Ash said.

Kellner, 47, took the reins at Continental in 2004 from CEO Gordon Bethune, who restored profits after 10 years on the job. Kellner joined Continental in 1995 as senior vice president and chief financial officer, and he was promoted to president by Bethune in 2001.

The airline posted profits in four of the past six quarters. Fourth-quarter earnings are projected at 25 cents a share, according to estimates from 10 analysts compiled by Bloomberg.

Analysts Susan Donofrio of Cathay Financial and Jamie Baker of J.P. Morgan Securities Inc. this week revised their outlook for the quarter to a loss from a profit after the airline forecast higher costs and lower-than-expected revenue.

"Continental is the prettiest girl at the dance party right now," said Darryl Jenkins, an independent airline consultant in Marshall, Va. "They're the best-managed among the legacy carriers over the longest period of time.'

Continental has declined to comment on the merger talks. United spokeswoman Jean Medina said the carrier has "a solid platform with the right team and the right plan that is delivering results."

Shares of Continental (CAL) fell 42 cents, to $44.34, in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. UAL's shares (UAUA) declined 69 cents, to $44.55, in Nasdaq Stock Market composite trading"

 

[Hvy]

Explain to me again why Continental would ruin their product with UAL employees???

Ahhh...another one crawls out from under their hole.

 

[hyflyt560]

By the time this happens, UAL will likely be hiring. As mentioned above, in 2000, we had 2 year captains at UAL. We're not that far off from having them again. If salary is part of the "career expectation" equation, then ALPA handed the 2172 (furloughees) a horrid card by giving up longevity credit. Another bad hand is our 3 year freeze, particularly for the more senior furloughees because now some of the most junior furloughees are going into the 757/767 and new hires may be doing the same next year. If we don't have fences, those 2172 who are in the Bus or 737 are going to be there for a long time...depending on the integration.

For our sake (UAL), I hope this all occurs after our next contract which will certainly improve our lot in life. And, we can hope that the CAL management team will be in the top spots, but is Tilton really willing to step away from a mega-merger with just the money? He could have done the same thing at Texaco/Chevron.

 

[hyflyt560]

CAL, what happens with your express employees in a merger? Are they part of the equation?

 

[G4G5]

In a nutshell:

Just make sure that CAL management is in charge and UAL management slinks off into the sunset. UAL management got us through a rough period in our history but they can't lead their way out of a paper bag.

United would likely be the surviving name.

Andy,

You and I went round and round about that dirt bag Tilton, last year, glad to see that you finally see the light. This guy can't get out of there fast enough.

The writing has been on the wall since the end of Sept when he hired Goldman Sachs to find a merger partner. I blame him for all of the consolidation and all of the future pain that these mergers will undoubtedly bestow on countless families. It was no coincidence that one he hired GS, Parker went aggressively after DAL. Parker is smart and saw where this was going.

If I was on the UALMEC I would worry about the type of deal that he is willing to cut just to get his options and run. If, when he gives total control to the current CAL mgt. your MEC will be negotiating from an extrememly weak position. Cut your deals now, once he has the option to get out with his millions, all bets are off.

This is from today's WSJ:
"United is so desperate to merge I'm surprised they're not listing on eBay."

--Michael Boyd, aviation consultant at Boyd Group Inc.​

 

[Andy]

You and I went round and round about that dirt bag Tilton, last year, glad to see that you finally see the light. This guy can't get out of there fast enough.

Ah, but there's a difference between being a great leader and a great money man.
Tilton was great at getting United back on track financially; if Goodwin or his successor (Creighton) had stayed at the helm much longer, there likely would not be a United Airlines. He's made a lot of changes at the top levels of United; mostly for the better in terms of financial performance.

I do not think that current United management is incompetent (just look at how much money they extracted from the rank and file employees ); they're just evil, heartless grinches. They do not have the ability/skill to rally the troops and inspire them to do a great job.

UAL management = great money managers, horrible leaders.
CAL management are much better leaders, which is why they're not willing to cede control of CAL's employees to UAL management. After reading about how CAL rebuffed DAL, I can tell you that I'd much rather work for a management team that views loyalty as a two way street.

You are correct that mergers are painful for the rank and file. Just witness all of the gnashing of teeth on this thread over the rumor of a merge.

As far as United's employees getting the shaft if CAL management took over, that's speculation on your part. I think that CAL management is able to look beyond the next quarter and realizes that an AMR/TWA-style merge would not bode well for the company in the long term.

 

[sgu]

UAL management = great money managers, horrible leaders.
CAL management are much better leaders, which is why they're not willing to cede control of CAL's employees to UAL management. After reading about how CAL rebuffed DAL, I can tell you that I'd much rather work for a management team that views loyalty as a two way street.

.

If GB was still CEO then I would agree but now LK is CEO, I would not go as far as saying it is totally a 2 way street. There are still trust issues from the employee standpoint, imo.

 

[Captain X]

CAL, what happens with your express employees in a merger? Are they part of the equation?

Technically, CAL doesn't "have" any express employees. ExpressJet feeds Continental on either a CPA, but they are a separate company with their own employee group.

I believe the outcome for employees ExpressJet would be the same for say, Mesa if the merger came to pass -- Future in flux, but in the meantime status quo until the details of the merger were finalized and in effect.

 

[Captain X]

Not to toss more fuel on the fire, but anyone who bypassed recall (such as myself; offered 25 Sep 06 class date) can return at any time (I will be in the 22 Jan 07 class) until the seniority list is gone through in reverse seniority order. At that time, a bypassing pilot will either accept recall or vacate the seniority list. I'm willing to bet that ~700 pilots will not return to United.

The estimated timeframe for United reaching the bottom of the seniority list is the end of Feb/early Mar 07. I estimate that United will go through the seniority list in reverse order by the end of June 07. So active/inactive pilot is not going to be a factor in any seniority integration.

Please try to refrain from using the word 'staple;' as soon as that word gets used in ANY seniority integration discussion, a free for all usually ensues on both sides. I caution all United pilots to also refrain from using that word.

And that was my point...IF (notice it's big ) someone has bypassed recall at UAL and this thing gets a true head of steam, then those individuals should have to basically "$hit or get off the pot" and accept recall to be back in training (i.e. ACTIVE) prior to the effective date of the seniority integration or they go to the bottom of the list. Basically saying, your SENIORITY rights are good until the integration goes thru. After that, you waive seniority and maintain RECALL rights until they expire under the current or future CBA (hopefully indefinite in this case).

 

[densoo]

Originally Posted by densoo
CAL pilots have had how many changes of leadership (union and otherwise) in the pilot group in the past 10 years? They can't even get it together and stabilized within the pilot group, much less get an equal shake vs management in the last contract. Just last week a new LEC was voted in at IAH. Nothing is settled at CAL.

It's not up to the pilots on this forum or either airline to debate other than for speculation and it has absolutely not bearing on the ultimate outcome. With the leadership change in IAH our MEC is now solid and no weaker than our UAL counterparts.

Now there is a recall afoot for an elected rep who hasn't even taken office yet. Where does it end?

 

[EWR_FO]

Now there is a recall afoot for an elected rep who hasn't even taken office yet. Where does it end?

That's a little bit of an exaggeration, wouldn't you say? The faction behind the noise can't seem to swallow the fact that their days are over.