United and Continental Talking....

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

How will the ultimate question be resolved after merger?

CAL guys call them 73s 75s and 76s. UAL guys call them 37s 47s 57s 67s

Right now there only seems to be agreement on the 77

 

[imfloodedII]

Explain to me again why Continental would ruin their product with UAL employees???

 

[Marko Ramius]

How will the ultimate question be resolved after merger?

CAL guys call them 73s 75s and 76s. UAL guys call them 37s 47s 57s 67s

Right now there only seems to be agreement on the 77

Actually most UA guys call them 300's, 400's and 67's(for both 757 and 767).

 

[whymeworry?]

Years of service meaning:

How many total years of service combined with DOH.

CAL pilot has five years since DOH and 5 years svc=composite score 10

UAL pilot has five years since DOH and <1 years svc=compsite score 6

Formulate intergration based on the scores

Ahhh, I see what your saying now. Doesn't change my stance though. CAL has 1000 pilots hired within the past two years by this spring. So DOH 2 plus LOS 1 (average length of svc for the aforementioned group of pilots) = 3. By contrast a UAl pilot with a DOH of June 2000gives him a 6 plus 2 yrs of svc = 8. No matter what the UAL pilots will gain the upper hand in the integration using this method every time so I don't see why you feel your logic is the more sensible approach.

Percentage integration, in concert with ALPA merger policy, will be the only fair and equitable solution.

 

[whymeworry?]

Well, you make a good point. But be ready for them to want to fence us out of the 747-400 and whatever replaces it, along with 3/4 of the 777 flying. I wouldn't be surprised if UAL ran a bid soon that will show everybody back on property.

It will be arbitrated. It would be nice if we didn't have to.

Your starting to sound like a guy who really wants a shot at that WB flying. Understandably so, but at the cost of a bloody integration process (READ: shafting the junior CAL pilots so that your seniority level can fly the 74)? So what if they fence for a while. Its what both pilot groups will do to get the whole integration process initially worked out. Don't worry, big guy, you'll get your chance to fly that 4-engined bird.

 

[whymeworry?]

ACTIVE[/color] pilots on each list as the basis to determine percentages. You then take each pilot's relative position on their current list and determine their percentage. You then integrate the two lists strictly by percentage carried out to some mutually agreed decimal point. Because of the difference in size of the two pilot groups, individual percentages will mostly differ slightly. If you have two guys with the same exact %, then you go by DOB, then alphabetically by last name if they have the same DOB. quote]

I agree. Under the guidelines of the APLA merger policy of course.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Don't you mean because of the mother-effing scabs?

I think CAL would accept a very close version of DOH, I think it's fair. Merge lists immediately with no furlough clause, put hiring on hold. Bring back UAL furloughs and allow them to then bid their seniority until hiring becomes necessary. CAL's list is not in DOH order due to mergers, this would have to be resolved.

 

[Flopgut]

WhyMeWorry:

I'm not so personally interested in the WB flying, that's where the big dollars are. What I'm trying to illustrate is this: Just make a mental note of about where we would all end up using DOH and years of service, and then compare that to how things go with arbitration, and we'll see if it was worth it (if this goes thru). You can't beat an animal (like a horse) that will come right to you and wants to be kind. Do, and you've forever spoiled any relationship. That's kind of what we have going here, we have a chance to go forward on mutual trust and benefit. We start to lash at them and I'm sure they are going to lash back; I'm not sure you know how hard they can hit. They aren't weak and they aren't stupid. It would be nice if we could keep a potential deal as friendly as possible. The CAL pilots most concerned about this aren't the junior ones (Kramer's friend not so delicately illustrates this sentiment in the above post), this could get real ugly.

 

[Andy]

Under no circumstances should a NON-ACTIVE pilot displace ANY individual who is currently employed at either CAL or UAL. If they bypassed recall, they should have a "drop-dead" date by which they will be required to return to employment or waive seniority rights. They should have to be ACTIVE pilots on the effective date of the integration. NON-ACTIVE pilots (furloughees) get stapled on the bottom of the list in their original seniority order and return when recalled to the bottom of the list.

Not to toss more fuel on the fire, but anyone who bypassed recall (such as myself; offered 25 Sep 06 class date) can return at any time (I will be in the 22 Jan 07 class) until the seniority list is gone through in reverse seniority order. At that time, a bypassing pilot will either accept recall or vacate the seniority list. I'm willing to bet that ~700 pilots will not return to United.

The estimated timeframe for United reaching the bottom of the seniority list is the end of Feb/early Mar 07. I estimate that United will go through the seniority list in reverse order by the end of June 07. So active/inactive pilot is not going to be a factor in any seniority integration.

Please try to refrain from using the word 'staple;' as soon as that word gets used in ANY seniority integration discussion, a free for all usually ensues on both sides. I caution all United pilots to also refrain from using that word.

 

[Andy]

Well, you make a good point. But be ready for them to want to fence us out of the 747-400 and whatever replaces it, along with 3/4 of the 777 flying. I wouldn't be surprised if UAL ran a bid soon that will show everybody back on property.

It will be arbitrated. It would be nice if we didn't have to.

As for everybody being back on property at UAL, see post above.

I don't believe in fences. If a former CAL pilot wants to bid the 400 based out of LAX and fly the LAX-SYD route, he should not be restricted from doing so. If a former CAL pilot wants to domicile in DEN, he should not be restricted from doing so. If a former UAL pilot wants to bid EWR, he should not be restricted from doing so. I think that any domicile and aircraft should be available to ALL pilots. This fencing is the stuff that created so much acrimony with the NWA/Republic merger.
Fences deprive each side of what could be a win-win. And bottom line is, seniority rules. Which is why seniority integration is such a contraversial subject to discuss. We have competing ideas of what is 'fair.' I ask that each side put themselves in the other party's shoes for a moment and refrain from using the keyboard as a weapon.

And two more points:
1) Nothing said on this board will effect the outcome. Rather, let's try to use it as a method of understanding each other's concerns.
2) There has not been any formal announcement; we may be getting our panties in a wad and making enemies of each other over nothing. To this day, there remains some friction between UAL and USAirways east.

 

[Andy]

Explain to me again why Continental would ruin their product with UAL employees???

Thanks for the flamebait.

All others, please ignore imfloodedII. I realize it's hard to ignore someone with curly orange hair, a big red nose that squeaks, a flower in his lapel that sprays water, and a shoe size larger than his IQ.

 

[fatboyplt]

Here's one. Has it occured to anyone that perhaps that the respective merger commitees are already in communcation with one another. Resolving the relavent issues. After all this CAL/UAL rumor has been around for quite sometime on the UA property.
Perhaps it has as well at CA if some of our colleagues would care to respond.

Birdman
BTV

 

[Flopgut]

Here's one. Has it occured to anyone that perhaps that the respective merger commitees are already in communcation with one another. Resolving the relavent issues. After all this CAL/UAL rumor has been around for quite sometime on the UA property.
Perhaps it has as well at CA if some of our colleagues would care to respond.

Birdman
BTV

I contacted my rep and suggested we (both merger committees) preempt the deal with an actual plan, not just merger policy. I don't know what's going on for sure. You guys actually did a simplified list I think.

 

[SuperFLUF]

....Perhaps it has as well at CA if some of our colleagues would care to respond.....

It has been around at CAL just as long. When Bethune was still here I'm sure you remember him playing up how well he thought it would work while UAL was in ch11.

He has told line pilots on a few flights that it didn't go through because Tilton wanted to run the show.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Blloomberg: If deal is done, Continental is seen the boss

"If deal is done, Continental is seen the boss"

Better management cited
Posted by the Asbury Park Press on 12/15/06
BLOOMBERG NEWS SERVICE

UAL Corp.'s United Airlines employees may end up taking orders from the management of smaller rival Continental Airlines Inc. should the two carriers decide to merge.

UAL Chief Executive Officer Glenn Tilton's public advocacy of airline consolidation doesn't mean that he'd stay around to run a United-Continental combination, said Julius Maldutis, president of New York-based Aviation Dynamics Inc.

"Continental will be the one who will be doing the acquiring, not United," Maldutis said Wednesday as the merger talks were disclosed by people familiar with the discussions. "They've got a stronger management. They've changed the culture at Continental. Tilton and company want to cash out."

A tie-up between United, based in Elk Grove, Illinois, and Continental, Newark Liberty International Airport's largest carrier, would create the world's largest carrier by passenger traffic, overtaking AMR Corp.'s American Airlines. With no public proposal on the table, Maldutis and other analysts are assessing what a merged carrier might look like.

Under CEO Larry Kellner, Houston-based Continental is one of the best-managed U.S. airlines, said Jon Ash, president of InterVistas-GA2 consulting firm in Washington. Its shares have more than doubled this year to lead the Bloomberg U.S. Airlines Index.

"If there is a combination, I'd see Continental taking over United and, in effect, running it," Ash said.

Kellner, 47, took the reins at Continental in 2004 from CEO Gordon Bethune, who restored profits after 10 years on the job. Kellner joined Continental in 1995 as senior vice president and chief financial officer, and he was promoted to president by Bethune in 2001.

The airline posted profits in four of the past six quarters. Fourth-quarter earnings are projected at 25 cents a share, according to estimates from 10 analysts compiled by Bloomberg.

Analysts Susan Donofrio of Cathay Financial and Jamie Baker of J.P. Morgan Securities Inc. this week revised their outlook for the quarter to a loss from a profit after the airline forecast higher costs and lower-than-expected revenue.

"Continental is the prettiest girl at the dance party right now," said Darryl Jenkins, an independent airline consultant in Marshall, Va. "They're the best-managed among the legacy carriers over the longest period of time.'

Continental has declined to comment on the merger talks. United spokeswoman Jean Medina said the carrier has "a solid platform with the right team and the right plan that is delivering results."

Shares of Continental (CAL) fell 42 cents, to $44.34, in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. UAL's shares (UAUA) declined 69 cents, to $44.55, in Nasdaq Stock Market composite trading"