United and Continental Talking....

[Palomino]

You are correct it doesn't matter who is the President of ALPA. I am just tired of hearing so many pilots saying we (CAL) will get screwed because were are CAL. Those days are long gone. How many times have you heard "I was on a United jumpseat and they said they are going to kill us in a merger integration" etc etc.

The only reason I mentioned the President in the post above is he will definitely make sure CAL's rights are protected as he will for all ALPA carriers. I'm sick of the beaten wife syndrome some of our pilots still exhibit. This isn't the CAL of ten or twenty years ago.

this is the understatement of the year!

 

[BigMotorToter]

Portion of United ALPA email to it's membership...

"How, then, you might ask, did the American pilots avoid an arbitration with the TWA pilots? The simple fact is that a court found at the time American proposed to buy TWA that TWA was on the verge of liquidation. The TWA pilots were told by American that they would have to waive their contractual right to arbitration and accept the proposed seniority list, or no transaction would take place. The TWA pilots elected to waive their contractual rights and accept the only deal available in order to salvage at least some of their careers. "


This is 100% wrong. How do I know? I was there, at the table.

Actually the oposite is true.

The APA requires any acquired airline's pilot group (you NWA boys need to take special attention to this) to give up their Allegheny-Mohawk LPP''s in order to allow AA to buy, acquire, merge another airline. At the time, AA really wanted this deal to go through. So AA came to the TWA pilots and said, "we will let you keep the rest of your ALPA contract until the merger is complete as long as you give up your arbitration rights."

We told them to go f themselves.

They then said, (and ALPA's lawyer's assigned to us backed this up) we will still press on with the acquisition, but we will strip you of all your ALPA contract and impose our own pay and work rules separate from the APA contract, until you are under the "green book" (APA's name for their contract).

This was all prior to 9/11. And also prior to any final seniority list mentioned in the above Untied ALPA email.

We were all then worried that they could lay us ALL off, and replace us with new hires.

We still told them to go f themselves.

ALPA's lawyers were then sent to STL by Duane Worth who then called an emergency meeting in STL with our MEC. We were told by our "expert" lawyers, that we were all in danger of having no contract whatsoever, which would jeopordize the entire seniority list during the acquisition. And that we better take the deal ASAP.

We, the pilots, wanted to take this up with the Bankruptcy judge, but our "expert" lawyers said that if you take this to the judge, he would have to make a ruling, and that bankruptcy judges in 1113 filings don't have the authority to uphold portions of contracts. They can either uphold the entire contract or throw the whole thing out. Therefore, because our ALPA assigned lawyers told us the risk was too great of loosing the entire contract, we had to take the AA deal.

Lets make this clear. AA wanted this deal no matter what. UAL and USair was happening and AA had to do something so not to lose market share. This deal was going through one way or another, regardless of any liquidation fears.

Once this was done, the APA ran right over us with a freight train. They forced their seniority list down our throats, ( a list we never agreed to by the way, which has allowed us to seek relief from the courts) And Duane Worth was going to be one step away from his dream of bringing in the APA to ALPA.

We, the former TWA pilots, have since learned that the advice given to us by the ALPA lawyers was false. That Duane Worth had alterior motives for wanting us to concede to the APA. That motive, already mentioned was to get AA into the ALPA fold, thus completing Duane's pledge of getting CAL, FEX and AA back into ALPA. Basically, selling us out so not to piss off the APA thus increasing the odds they vote in ALPA.

Ironicaly, many of the AA pilots I have spoken to, now want nothing to do with ALPA, because of the way ALPA deffended us.

People, this is fact. This event, backed up with hard evidence, is why the Appeals Court upheld our lawsuit against ALPA, and is one of many reasons we will be going to trial hopefully by the fall of 2007.

I will say, that all you guys who end up in an ALPA to ALPA merger will be better off than the poor bastards that end up in the cross hairs of AA. May god have mercy on your souls.

 

[COpilot]

Most important part of ALPA merger policy other than guaranteeing a seniority arbitration:


5. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger
situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to
various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in
mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

Yes, I see your point CAL.

Hey, do you think that they will reject me? In '93 they told me that my BS in Aero Science, 2 types, a FE rating, and 6000TT was not enough to qualify for a interview. Hey, now all of the old Frontier GP's can be Brain surgeons...lol!

just kidding,,, Heck, this is all so serious we've got to laugh.

I was late '87, I'm on the crack pipe too (thats our site)

 

[cal73cap]

Cal-Ua Merger-Yes
UA Airbuses parked or sold-Yes
Hiring at Cal stopped-Yes
Merger by DOH-Some
Merger by ratio-Some
Fences-Yes
Dulles closed-Yes
Cleveland closed-Yes
My two cents!-Yes

 

[General Lee]

Cal-Ua Merger-Yes
UA Airbuses parked or sold-Yes
Hiring at Cal stopped-Yes
Merger by DOH-Some
Merger by ratio-Some
Fences-Yes
Dulles closed-Yes
Cleveland closed-Yes
My two cents!-Yes

IAD could probably sustain service by itself. The Capital of our nation needs International service from a US airline. I think both would stay. I don't see Southwest flying to Brussels anytime soon.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[tomgoodman]

What might have been

I was one of the principals involved in the Super Bowl Sunday 98 potiental merger with DAL.

Can you give us a little more history on that one? How close do you think it came? Did they have a plan to resolve anti-trust beefs (like too much combined presence in NYC/EWR)?

 

[whymeworry?]

Remember, there are no more shark-infested waters than those around a bankrupt company. Expect the unexpected. NWA might be in an awful bind here.

Funny, it was NW that single-handedly sabatoged virtually every fare-hike post 9/11 up until late last year when the first fare hikes began to stick for once. By that point NW had already filed.

I feel bad for their pilots, somewhat. I say somewhat because they folded like a wet noodle when it came to accepting a pathetic contract. I know not all of them voted yes but there was very little fight overall nonetheless.

Anyway, back to NW mgmt and their arrogance. If the Legacy carriers simply passed on the fuel hike to customers in the form of a surcharge, as VIRTUALLY EVERY BUSINESS IN AMERICA HAS BEEN DOING SINCE OIL BEGAN TO RISE, our industry would be in a lot better shape today. Every time the majors tried to raise prices, NW was always the sole carrier who refused to follow suit, even envoking a fare war at times. That management team played havoc with the industry and lives have been ruined. It was so bizarre how they behaved it was almost like they were just out to play games. Now the tables are turned. Ain't Karma a bitch.

 

[whymeworry?]

Portion of United ALPA email to it's membership...

"How, then, you might ask, did the American pilots avoid an arbitration with the TWA pilots? The simple fact is that a court found at the time American proposed to buy TWA that TWA was on the verge of liquidation. The TWA pilots were told by American that they would have to waive their contractual right to arbitration and accept the proposed seniority list, or no transaction would take place. The TWA pilots elected to waive their contractual rights and accept the only deal available in order to salvage at least some of their careers. "


This is 100% wrong. How do I know? I was there, at the table.

Actually the oposite is true.

The APA requires any acquired airline's pilot group (you NWA boys need to take special attention to this) to give up their Allegheny-Mohawk LPP''s in order to allow AA to buy, acquire, merge another airline. At the time, AA really wanted this deal to go through. So AA came to the TWA pilots and said, "we will let you keep the rest of your ALPA contract until the merger is complete as long as you give up your arbitration rights."

We told them to go f themselves.

They then said, (and ALPA's lawyer's assigned to us backed this up) we will still press on with the acquisition, but we will strip you of all your ALPA contract and impose our own pay and work rules separate from the APA contract, until you are under the "green book" (APA's name for their contract).

This was all prior to 9/11. And also prior to any final seniority list mentioned in the above Untied ALPA email.

We were all then worried that they could lay us ALL off, and replace us with new hires.

We still told them to go f themselves.

ALPA's lawyers were then sent to STL by Duane Worth who then called an emergency meeting in STL with our MEC. We were told by our "expert" lawyers, that we were all in danger of having no contract whatsoever, which would jeopordize the entire seniority list during the acquisition. And that we better take the deal ASAP.

We, the pilots, wanted to take this up with the Bankruptcy judge, but our "expert" lawyers said that if you take this to the judge, he would have to make a ruling, and that bankruptcy judges in 1113 filings don't have the authority to uphold portions of contracts. They can either uphold the entire contract or throw the whole thing out. Therefore, because our ALPA assigned lawyers told us the risk was too great of loosing the entire contract, we had to take the AA deal.

Lets make this clear. AA wanted this deal no matter what. UAL and USair was happening and AA had to do something so not to lose market share. This deal was going through one way or another, regardless of any liquidation fears.

Once this was done, the APA ran right over us with a freight train. They forced their seniority list down our throats, ( a list we never agreed to by the way, which has allowed us to seek relief from the courts) And Duane Worth was going to be one step away from his dream of bringing in the APA to ALPA.

We, the former TWA pilots, have since learned that the advice given to us by the ALPA lawyers was false. That Duane Worth had alterior motives for wanting us to concede to the APA. That motive, already mentioned was to get AA into the ALPA fold, thus completing Duane's pledge of getting CAL, FEX and AA back into ALPA. Basically, selling us out so not to piss off the APA thus increasing the odds they vote in ALPA.

Ironicaly, many of the AA pilots I have spoken to, now want nothing to do with ALPA, because of the way ALPA deffended us.

People, this is fact. This event, backed up with hard evidence, is why the Appeals Court upheld our lawsuit against ALPA, and is one of many reasons we will be going to trial hopefully by the fall of 2007.

I will say, that all you guys who end up in an ALPA to ALPA merger will be better off than the poor bastards that end up in the cross hairs of AA. May god have mercy on your souls.

Good for you and your pilot group. Its refreshing to see someone stand up to the big boys of our union and to the evil deeds that occur within organized labor. I wish you all the luck. Lawyers have to recognize there are ramifications for lying... and if they did lie to your pilot group, they ought to be disbarred.

Y'all ought to start a fund so that those of us who sympathize with your position can donate to your cause.

 

[Powda5]

I am in a funny (but not so much) position of being furloughed from UAL (appx 100 from the bottom and just got my recall letter) AND a 1 year newhire at CAL.

I looked at both sides from this viewpoint and wish I could figure out the ALPA merger policy and how it would work, exactly. Since DOH is not a factor in the policy, I think that as a CAL newhire, I am better off than my 'furloughed UAL self' in terms of what comes out of a possible merger. CAL upgrades 5 years, UAL 8 years (this is my own research based on junior capts)...

In less than 10 years I expect to be better than halfway up COA's list, while at UAL I would only be at 25% from the bottom. Is this how I should be looking at ALPA's merger policy or is there way more to it? Would they put someone like me close to my percentage (in a merged list) that I currently hold at CAL? I doubt either CAL or UAL could be considered a 'failing carrier', so I don't think either has the upper hand when it comes to arguing which group gets the better deal in a merged list.

Someone mentioned that UAL or CAL could propose hire date. How could hire date be proposed when it's not part of the merger policy? If it's agreed upon then we can add that?

Retirement numbers are very close year to year, but like someone pointed out, UAL has roughly twice the pilots.

Some of you guys who have experience in ALPA or mergers or just know some history....is there a lot more to be considering, or is this basically it?

 

[BigMotorToter]

whymeworry,

Thanks for your support. We do actually have a site set up with info and a contribution address. Try this:

http://twapilots-vs-alpa.com/

If the link doesn't work, just type it in, it should work.

Thanks again.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Are you 4 years old? You sound like it. Self portrait?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Sorry Lee,
That was a miss post , it was not intended for this page and i didnt get a chance to clear it before you comment........ but you are right I'm only this many! (holding up 4 fingers) Not a self portrait but a self product.....

 

[SWA/FO]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0612140282dec14,1,7430790.story?page=2&track=rss

says all they are hung up on is the management team... that seems easy to me, use CAL's management.

 

[Flopgut]

I am in a funny (but not so much) position of being furloughed from UAL (appx 100 from the bottom and just got my recall letter) AND a 1 year newhire at CAL.

I looked at both sides from this viewpoint and wish I could figure out the ALPA merger policy and how it would work, exactly. Since DOH is not a factor in the policy, I think that as a CAL newhire, I am better off than my 'furloughed UAL self' in terms of what comes out of a possible merger. CAL upgrades 5 years, UAL 8 years (this is my own research based on junior capts)...

In less than 10 years I expect to be better than halfway up COA's list, while at UAL I would only be at 25% from the bottom. Is this how I should be looking at ALPA's merger policy or is there way more to it? Would they put someone like me close to my percentage (in a merged list) that I currently hold at CAL? I doubt either CAL or UAL could be considered a 'failing carrier', so I don't think either has the upper hand when it comes to arguing which group gets the better deal in a merged list.

Someone mentioned that UAL or CAL could propose hire date. How could hire date be proposed when it's not part of the merger policy? If it's agreed upon then we can add that?

Retirement numbers are very close year to year, but like someone pointed out, UAL has roughly twice the pilots.

Some of you guys who have experience in ALPA or mergers or just know some history....is there a lot more to be considering, or is this basically it?

ALPA merger policy once included DOH and length of service criteria. It's been "refined" over the years. With NWA/REP they added a career expectations metric. DOH is very simple, keeping it simple drives the sharks nuts and that's a good thing. The airlines have similiar fundamentals, it's not entirely inappropriate to suggest we skip arbitration and take a look at some version of DOH. We have to ask ourselves: what kind of airline do we want on the other side of this deal? By all accounts, the combination of these two airlines is supposed to be a VERY lucrative business. Do we want to screw it up and make it like NWA?

I suppose you could pick the date you want to use.

 

[Andy]

By all accounts, the combination of these two airlines is supposed to be a VERY lucrative business.

Just as long as Continental management runs the show.

 

[densoo]

With the leadership change in IAH our MEC is now solid and no weaker than our UAL counterparts.

Which leadership change were you talking about? The one last year or the one in this email I got today! (or the one next week or next month or next year):

December 13, 2006

TO ALL MEMBERS OF THE CAL MEC

Gentlemen and Ladies:

The purpose of this letter is to advise you that your three MEC officers will resign from office effective January 31, 2007.

...........................

It has been an honor and privilege to serve our fellow pilots. We are very pleased with the accomplishments we have helped to achieve, and stand ready to assist our union in the future.

Fraternally,

chill out negotiating merged lists on this forum will serve no purpose other than to give you an ulcer or worse a coronary.

Your merger committee is well prepared relax.

It's getting harder everyday.

 

[Patriot328]

ALPA merger policy once included DOH and length of service criteria. It's been "refined" over the years. With NWA/REP they added a career expectations metric. DOH is very simple, keeping it simple drives the sharks nuts and that's a good thing. The airlines have similiar fundamentals, it's not entirely inappropriate to suggest we skip arbitration and take a look at some version of DOH. We have to ask ourselves: what kind of airline do we want on the other side of this deal? By all accounts, the combination of these two airlines is supposed to be a VERY lucrative business. Do we want to screw it up and make it like NWA?

I suppose you could pick the date you want to use.

Easy for you to say DOH when your DOH doesn't mean the difference between being a captain and being furloughed.

Around 1000 pilots, about 22% of the workforce, have been hired at CAL since UAL last hired in '01.

'01 CAs from CAL would be behind every pilot on UAL's seniority list if it were done DOH.


Maybe some sort of % based integration....

 

[ualdriver]

Flopgut, I agree with you that this could be a VERY lucrative deal if a UAL/CAL went through. This combined airline would either be one of the most powerful airlines on the planet, if not THE most powerful. What kind of airline do we pilots want when we come out of the other end of the merger chute? I personally think this deal will happen at some point. And I think the true "golden "share" owners at NWA can be bought off.

If this deal goes down, I'm a UAL guy and I DO NOT WANT TO SEE MY CAL BROTHERS SCREWED (except the scabs ). I'm a UAL guy and I DO NOT WANT TO SEE MY UAL BROTHERS SCREWED (except the scabs ). If both groups could look at the messes that have happened at TWA/AA, NWA/Republic, etc., and actually go in with the attitude of not trying to screw each other over, I think we could come out with a pretty "fair" deal where both sides might actually serve as an example as to how an ALPA merger should happen. Then again, maybe I'm incredibly naive

 

[Andy]

Easy for you to say DOH when your DOH doesn't mean the difference between being a captain and being furloughed.

Around 1000 pilots, about 22% of the workforce, have been hired at CAL since UAL last hired in '01.

'01 CAs from CAL would be behind every pilot on UAL's seniority list if it were done DOH.

Point very well taken. I hope that my brethren at United understand the point that you are making here. Feels like deja vu all over again, except UAL is in a different position relative to the merger partner.
Relative seniority would be a much more reasonable method. But, as has already been pointed out on this thread my myself and others, I DO NOT represent my fellow United pilots.

And gents, no matter what side you're on, don't lose any sleep over this. I lost a lot of sleep over the aborted UAL/U merge. Turned out to be a wasted effort.

 

[Andy]

And I think the true "golden "share" owners at NWA can be bought off.

I'd say that due to NWA declaring chap 11 reorganization, the golden share no longer exists. The big question is ... what will it take to get UAL management to step aside and let the combined operation be run by one of the best managements in the biz.

 

[CAL EWR B737]

Which leadership change were you talking about? The one last year or the one in this email I got today! (or the one next week or next month or next year):





I was talking about the new IAH reps to take office in March. Now combined with the EWR reps our two largest bases have very strong, forward looking reps who are not afraid to make tough aggressive decisions. I was suprised by the MEC officers annoucement and I respect their decision.

Back during the IACP days we had a very strong leadership but an inherently week union with little or no resoucres. Then we brought in ALPA and all of it's muscle and we elected weak leaders (Contract 02 disaster) supported by a ununifed membership.

Today we have for the first time ever, strong leadership, a solid union and a unified pilot group (because of all of our hiring and attrition). I look at recent events as extremely positive. The CAL pilots are now a force to be reackoned with.

Below is the text of an e-mail I just wrote to our out going MEC Officers.


Dave, Bob and Randy,

I was very surprised to read about your resignation. I understand your reasons and I thank you for your tireless service on behalf of the Continental pilots.

As some of you may know I was very vocal regarding my displeasure with the former MEC Officers. In no way shape or form do you resemble any of them in your leadership style and I believe you all did your very best to represent the Continental pilots .

What has impressed me the most and earned immense respect in my eyes is your decision to resign based on the fact you see a change in the wants in the aggressiveness type of leadership style from the CAL ALPA membership.

As I learned from my significant involvement in the ALPA/IACP merger process back in 2001. On top of the ALPA triangle is membership in the middle is the MEC and the bottom is the President. That is why the membership wears gold ALPA pins and the leadership wears pewter.

That fact that you all have unselfishly put the needs and wants of the membership over your personal needs are extremely admirable. I can say with confidence your predecessors never ever thought this way.

Thank you for your service and dedication to our pilot group. I wish you a and your families a safe and happy holiday season.


Fraternally,


Jayson Baron

 

[Daddy]

I'd say that due to NWA declaring chap 11 reorganization, the golden share no longer exists. The big question is ... what will it take to get UAL management to step aside and let the combined operation be run by one of the best managements in the biz.

Andy,
I tend to agree with you...I don't know why they would retain those voting rights in BK, but CNBC is reporting that they have it...I wonder if the creditors will be able to dictate their votes though....

 

[Occam's Razor]

I tend to agree with you...I don't know why they would retain those voting rights in BK, but CNBC is reporting that they have it...I wonder if the creditors will be able to dictate their votes though....

C'mon! Get real. A brief excerpt from one of 3-dozen SEC filings was posted on flightinfo where it's been analyzed by corporate governance experts.

Case closed.

Now let's get back to the cover-up of TWA 800, airplanes taking off on treadmills, and how badly we want to screw each other in a merger.

 

[Flopgut]

Patriot:

Is 01 CAL CA a real number? Or is it more of an indicator of how bad reserve is? I know ther ARE CAs with that DOH but, compare it with lineholder seniority. Furthermore, does the 01 CAL CA want to be a 2011 757 CA? Or a 2021 777 CA with a line of time? Because if we act too tough on the bottom CA seniority then UAL is going to get real tough on the widebody flying. And they will clean our plow on that.

We could exceed an unlimited budget, take years of arbitration, make a bunch of lawyers ridiculously wealthy, and if things go absolutely perfect, have a resulting combined list that looks very close to DOH with a possible wiggle on years of service. Not before we hate each other, disenfranchise the customers, disgust Wall Street, and all manner of other detriments.

Why not do this: DOH, with adjustment for years of service, no furlough clause for CAL, UAL furloughs return and bid new composite seniority number until hiring starts. And substantial hiring will start quickly IMHO, probably within a quarter. And we all enjoy the spoils of a great airline job going forward.

To a certain extent, we ALL have to view this kind of like a start up.

 

[LJDRVR]

If this deal goes down, I'm a UAL guy and I DO NOT WANT TO SEE MY CAL BROTHERS SCREWED (except the scabs ). I'm a UAL guy and I DO NOT WANT TO SEE MY UAL BROTHERS SCREWED (except the scabs ).

I agree. Hey! How about stapling the SCABS from both airlines?

I still think this is so much irresponsible media-driven hperbole. The sole ource for these news reports are still the WSJ online edition's claim of persons familiar with the situation.

 

[fatboyplt]

Flopgut,
Well put...

Birdman
BTV

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I don't see Southwest flying to Brussels anytime soon.

Thank goodness to that !!! With a 3.0 "arse", That would absolutely kill me....

Tejas

 

[Andy]

Is 01 CAL CA a real number? Or is it more of an indicator of how bad reserve is?

The 01 CAL CA is about 1/3 up the seniority list. We had two year CAs at UAL back in 2000.

 

[Patriot328]

Patriot:

Is 01 CAL CA a real number? Or is it more of an indicator of how bad reserve is? I know ther ARE CAs with that DOH but, compare it with lineholder seniority. Furthermore, does the 01 CAL CA want to be a 2011 757 CA? Or a 2021 777 CA with a line of time? Because if we act too tough on the bottom CA seniority then UAL is going to get real tough on the widebody flying. And they will clean our plow on that.

We could exceed an unlimited budget, take years of arbitration, make a bunch of lawyers ridiculously wealthy, and if things go absolutely perfect, have a resulting combined list that looks very close to DOH with a possible wiggle on years of service. Not before we hate each other, disenfranchise the customers, disgust Wall Street, and all manner of other detriments.

Why not do this: DOH, with adjustment for years of service, no furlough clause for CAL, UAL furloughs return and bid new composite seniority number until hiring starts. And substantial hiring will start quickly IMHO, probably within a quarter. And we all enjoy the spoils of a great airline job going forward.

To a certain extent, we ALL have to view this kind of like a start up.

It doesn't matter why there are '01 DOH CAs here (RSV sucks and for god sake, we're talking Newark here), doing a DOH (or even a quasi DOH with wiggle room) would be screwing over a solid 25% of CAL's seniority list.

DOH and I go from about 4200 out of 4800, which is the bottom 13% and moving up very rapidly due to 5-6% of the pilots retiring each year, to 12900 out of 13500, which is the bottom 4% of the combine seniority list of an airline whose pilots are retiring at 2.5% a year. Double the size, half the retirement rate.. sounds like a great plan.

 

[Andy]

DOH and I go from about 4200 out of 4800, which is the bottom 13% and moving up very rapidly due to 5-6% of the pilots retiring each year, to 12900 out of 13500, which is the bottom 4% of the combine seniority list of an airline whose pilots are retiring at 2.5% a year. Double the size, half the retirement rate.. sounds like a great plan.

UAL's seniority list in Jul 06 had 8655. Subtract 655 for those that will never return from furlough.
2006 141 = 1.8% Jul-Dec 06
2007 263 = 3.3%
2008 234 = 2.9%
2009 231 = 2.9%
2010 201 = 2.5%
2011 167 = 2.1%
2012 228 = 2.9%
2013 245 = 3.1%
2014 237 = 2.9%
2015 270 = 3.4%
2016 331 = 4.1%
2017 307 = 3.8%
2018 381 = 4.8%
2019 355 = 4.4%
2020 463 = 5.8%
2021 506 = 6.3%
2022 506 = 6.3%
2023 575 = 7.2%
2024 574 = 7.2%
2025 538 = 6.7%

CAL, percentages assume 4800 on property
2007: 313 = 6.5%
2008: 241 = 5.0%
2009: 215 = 4.5%
2010: 209 = 4.4%
2011: 218 = 4.5%
2012: 218 = 4.5%
2013: 191 = 4.0%
2014: 202 = 4.2%
2015: 171 = 3.6%
2016: 189 = 3.9%
2017: 180 = 3.8%
2018: 179 = 3.7%
2019: 151 = 3.1%
2020: 146 = 3.0%
2021: 151 = 3.1%
2022: 150 = 3.1%
2023: 178 = 3.7%
2024: 125 = 2.6%
2025: 135 = 2.8%

Let's suppose that the merger were announced tomorrow. It would likely not be until 2009 (at the earliest) before we saw seniority lists integrated.
Year UAL CAL
2009 2.9% 4.5%
2010 2.5% 4.4%
2011 2.1% 4.5%
2012 2.9% 4.5%
2013 3.1% 4.0%
2014 2.9% 4.2%
2015 3.4% 3.6%
2016 4.1% 3.9%
2017 3.8% 3.8%
2018 4.8% 3.7%
2019 4.4% 3.1%
2020 5.8% 3.0%
2021 6.3% 3.1%
2022 6.3% 3.1%
2023 7.2% 3.7%
2024 7.2% 2.6%
2025 6.7% 2.8%

 

[Patriot328]

......

Thank you for the numbers Andy. Must more precise than my eyeballing it. Looks like CAL's retirements (and seniority movement) are frontloaded while UAL's are farther down the line, to some degree. 2016 seems to be the turning point.