United and Continental Talking....

[Palomino]

You are correct it doesn't matter who is the President of ALPA. I am just tired of hearing so many pilots saying we (CAL) will get screwed because were are CAL. Those days are long gone. How many times have you heard "I was on a United jumpseat and they said they are going to kill us in a merger integration" etc etc.

The only reason I mentioned the President in the post above is he will definitely make sure CAL's rights are protected as he will for all ALPA carriers. I'm sick of the beaten wife syndrome some of our pilots still exhibit. This isn't the CAL of ten or twenty years ago.

this is the understatement of the year!

 

[BigMotorToter]

Portion of United ALPA email to it's membership...

"How, then, you might ask, did the American pilots avoid an arbitration with the TWA pilots? The simple fact is that a court found at the time American proposed to buy TWA that TWA was on the verge of liquidation. The TWA pilots were told by American that they would have to waive their contractual right to arbitration and accept the proposed seniority list, or no transaction would take place. The TWA pilots elected to waive their contractual rights and accept the only deal available in order to salvage at least some of their careers. "


This is 100% wrong. How do I know? I was there, at the table.

Actually the oposite is true.

The APA requires any acquired airline's pilot group (you NWA boys need to take special attention to this) to give up their Allegheny-Mohawk LPP''s in order to allow AA to buy, acquire, merge another airline. At the time, AA really wanted this deal to go through. So AA came to the TWA pilots and said, "we will let you keep the rest of your ALPA contract until the merger is complete as long as you give up your arbitration rights."

We told them to go f themselves.

They then said, (and ALPA's lawyer's assigned to us backed this up) we will still press on with the acquisition, but we will strip you of all your ALPA contract and impose our own pay and work rules separate from the APA contract, until you are under the "green book" (APA's name for their contract).

This was all prior to 9/11. And also prior to any final seniority list mentioned in the above Untied ALPA email.

We were all then worried that they could lay us ALL off, and replace us with new hires.

We still told them to go f themselves.

ALPA's lawyers were then sent to STL by Duane Worth who then called an emergency meeting in STL with our MEC. We were told by our "expert" lawyers, that we were all in danger of having no contract whatsoever, which would jeopordize the entire seniority list during the acquisition. And that we better take the deal ASAP.

We, the pilots, wanted to take this up with the Bankruptcy judge, but our "expert" lawyers said that if you take this to the judge, he would have to make a ruling, and that bankruptcy judges in 1113 filings don't have the authority to uphold portions of contracts. They can either uphold the entire contract or throw the whole thing out. Therefore, because our ALPA assigned lawyers told us the risk was too great of loosing the entire contract, we had to take the AA deal.

Lets make this clear. AA wanted this deal no matter what. UAL and USair was happening and AA had to do something so not to lose market share. This deal was going through one way or another, regardless of any liquidation fears.

Once this was done, the APA ran right over us with a freight train. They forced their seniority list down our throats, ( a list we never agreed to by the way, which has allowed us to seek relief from the courts) And Duane Worth was going to be one step away from his dream of bringing in the APA to ALPA.

We, the former TWA pilots, have since learned that the advice given to us by the ALPA lawyers was false. That Duane Worth had alterior motives for wanting us to concede to the APA. That motive, already mentioned was to get AA into the ALPA fold, thus completing Duane's pledge of getting CAL, FEX and AA back into ALPA. Basically, selling us out so not to piss off the APA thus increasing the odds they vote in ALPA.

Ironicaly, many of the AA pilots I have spoken to, now want nothing to do with ALPA, because of the way ALPA deffended us.

People, this is fact. This event, backed up with hard evidence, is why the Appeals Court upheld our lawsuit against ALPA, and is one of many reasons we will be going to trial hopefully by the fall of 2007.

I will say, that all you guys who end up in an ALPA to ALPA merger will be better off than the poor bastards that end up in the cross hairs of AA. May god have mercy on your souls.

 

[COpilot]

Most important part of ALPA merger policy other than guaranteeing a seniority arbitration:


5. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger
situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to
various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in
mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

Yes, I see your point CAL.

Hey, do you think that they will reject me? In '93 they told me that my BS in Aero Science, 2 types, a FE rating, and 6000TT was not enough to qualify for a interview. Hey, now all of the old Frontier GP's can be Brain surgeons...lol!

just kidding,,, Heck, this is all so serious we've got to laugh.

I was late '87, I'm on the crack pipe too (thats our site)

 

[cal73cap]

Cal-Ua Merger-Yes
UA Airbuses parked or sold-Yes
Hiring at Cal stopped-Yes
Merger by DOH-Some
Merger by ratio-Some
Fences-Yes
Dulles closed-Yes
Cleveland closed-Yes
My two cents!-Yes

 

[General Lee]

Cal-Ua Merger-Yes
UA Airbuses parked or sold-Yes
Hiring at Cal stopped-Yes
Merger by DOH-Some
Merger by ratio-Some
Fences-Yes
Dulles closed-Yes
Cleveland closed-Yes
My two cents!-Yes

IAD could probably sustain service by itself. The Capital of our nation needs International service from a US airline. I think both would stay. I don't see Southwest flying to Brussels anytime soon.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[tomgoodman]

What might have been

I was one of the principals involved in the Super Bowl Sunday 98 potiental merger with DAL.

Can you give us a little more history on that one? How close do you think it came? Did they have a plan to resolve anti-trust beefs (like too much combined presence in NYC/EWR)?

 

[whymeworry?]

Remember, there are no more shark-infested waters than those around a bankrupt company. Expect the unexpected. NWA might be in an awful bind here.

Funny, it was NW that single-handedly sabatoged virtually every fare-hike post 9/11 up until late last year when the first fare hikes began to stick for once. By that point NW had already filed.

I feel bad for their pilots, somewhat. I say somewhat because they folded like a wet noodle when it came to accepting a pathetic contract. I know not all of them voted yes but there was very little fight overall nonetheless.

Anyway, back to NW mgmt and their arrogance. If the Legacy carriers simply passed on the fuel hike to customers in the form of a surcharge, as VIRTUALLY EVERY BUSINESS IN AMERICA HAS BEEN DOING SINCE OIL BEGAN TO RISE, our industry would be in a lot better shape today. Every time the majors tried to raise prices, NW was always the sole carrier who refused to follow suit, even envoking a fare war at times. That management team played havoc with the industry and lives have been ruined. It was so bizarre how they behaved it was almost like they were just out to play games. Now the tables are turned. Ain't Karma a bitch.

 

[whymeworry?]

Portion of United ALPA email to it's membership...

"How, then, you might ask, did the American pilots avoid an arbitration with the TWA pilots? The simple fact is that a court found at the time American proposed to buy TWA that TWA was on the verge of liquidation. The TWA pilots were told by American that they would have to waive their contractual right to arbitration and accept the proposed seniority list, or no transaction would take place. The TWA pilots elected to waive their contractual rights and accept the only deal available in order to salvage at least some of their careers. "


This is 100% wrong. How do I know? I was there, at the table.

Actually the oposite is true.

The APA requires any acquired airline's pilot group (you NWA boys need to take special attention to this) to give up their Allegheny-Mohawk LPP''s in order to allow AA to buy, acquire, merge another airline. At the time, AA really wanted this deal to go through. So AA came to the TWA pilots and said, "we will let you keep the rest of your ALPA contract until the merger is complete as long as you give up your arbitration rights."

We told them to go f themselves.

They then said, (and ALPA's lawyer's assigned to us backed this up) we will still press on with the acquisition, but we will strip you of all your ALPA contract and impose our own pay and work rules separate from the APA contract, until you are under the "green book" (APA's name for their contract).

This was all prior to 9/11. And also prior to any final seniority list mentioned in the above Untied ALPA email.

We were all then worried that they could lay us ALL off, and replace us with new hires.

We still told them to go f themselves.

ALPA's lawyers were then sent to STL by Duane Worth who then called an emergency meeting in STL with our MEC. We were told by our "expert" lawyers, that we were all in danger of having no contract whatsoever, which would jeopordize the entire seniority list during the acquisition. And that we better take the deal ASAP.

We, the pilots, wanted to take this up with the Bankruptcy judge, but our "expert" lawyers said that if you take this to the judge, he would have to make a ruling, and that bankruptcy judges in 1113 filings don't have the authority to uphold portions of contracts. They can either uphold the entire contract or throw the whole thing out. Therefore, because our ALPA assigned lawyers told us the risk was too great of loosing the entire contract, we had to take the AA deal.

Lets make this clear. AA wanted this deal no matter what. UAL and USair was happening and AA had to do something so not to lose market share. This deal was going through one way or another, regardless of any liquidation fears.

Once this was done, the APA ran right over us with a freight train. They forced their seniority list down our throats, ( a list we never agreed to by the way, which has allowed us to seek relief from the courts) And Duane Worth was going to be one step away from his dream of bringing in the APA to ALPA.

We, the former TWA pilots, have since learned that the advice given to us by the ALPA lawyers was false. That Duane Worth had alterior motives for wanting us to concede to the APA. That motive, already mentioned was to get AA into the ALPA fold, thus completing Duane's pledge of getting CAL, FEX and AA back into ALPA. Basically, selling us out so not to piss off the APA thus increasing the odds they vote in ALPA.

Ironicaly, many of the AA pilots I have spoken to, now want nothing to do with ALPA, because of the way ALPA deffended us.

People, this is fact. This event, backed up with hard evidence, is why the Appeals Court upheld our lawsuit against ALPA, and is one of many reasons we will be going to trial hopefully by the fall of 2007.

I will say, that all you guys who end up in an ALPA to ALPA merger will be better off than the poor bastards that end up in the cross hairs of AA. May god have mercy on your souls.

Good for you and your pilot group. Its refreshing to see someone stand up to the big boys of our union and to the evil deeds that occur within organized labor. I wish you all the luck. Lawyers have to recognize there are ramifications for lying... and if they did lie to your pilot group, they ought to be disbarred.

Y'all ought to start a fund so that those of us who sympathize with your position can donate to your cause.

 

[Powda5]

I am in a funny (but not so much) position of being furloughed from UAL (appx 100 from the bottom and just got my recall letter) AND a 1 year newhire at CAL.

I looked at both sides from this viewpoint and wish I could figure out the ALPA merger policy and how it would work, exactly. Since DOH is not a factor in the policy, I think that as a CAL newhire, I am better off than my 'furloughed UAL self' in terms of what comes out of a possible merger. CAL upgrades 5 years, UAL 8 years (this is my own research based on junior capts)...

In less than 10 years I expect to be better than halfway up COA's list, while at UAL I would only be at 25% from the bottom. Is this how I should be looking at ALPA's merger policy or is there way more to it? Would they put someone like me close to my percentage (in a merged list) that I currently hold at CAL? I doubt either CAL or UAL could be considered a 'failing carrier', so I don't think either has the upper hand when it comes to arguing which group gets the better deal in a merged list.

Someone mentioned that UAL or CAL could propose hire date. How could hire date be proposed when it's not part of the merger policy? If it's agreed upon then we can add that?

Retirement numbers are very close year to year, but like someone pointed out, UAL has roughly twice the pilots.

Some of you guys who have experience in ALPA or mergers or just know some history....is there a lot more to be considering, or is this basically it?

 

[BigMotorToter]

whymeworry,

Thanks for your support. We do actually have a site set up with info and a contribution address. Try this:

http://twapilots-vs-alpa.com/

If the link doesn't work, just type it in, it should work.

Thanks again.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Are you 4 years old? You sound like it. Self portrait?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Sorry Lee,
That was a miss post , it was not intended for this page and i didnt get a chance to clear it before you comment........ but you are right I'm only this many! (holding up 4 fingers) Not a self portrait but a self product.....

 

[SWA/FO]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0612140282dec14,1,7430790.story?page=2&track=rss

says all they are hung up on is the management team... that seems easy to me, use CAL's management.

 

[Flopgut]

I am in a funny (but not so much) position of being furloughed from UAL (appx 100 from the bottom and just got my recall letter) AND a 1 year newhire at CAL.

I looked at both sides from this viewpoint and wish I could figure out the ALPA merger policy and how it would work, exactly. Since DOH is not a factor in the policy, I think that as a CAL newhire, I am better off than my 'furloughed UAL self' in terms of what comes out of a possible merger. CAL upgrades 5 years, UAL 8 years (this is my own research based on junior capts)...

In less than 10 years I expect to be better than halfway up COA's list, while at UAL I would only be at 25% from the bottom. Is this how I should be looking at ALPA's merger policy or is there way more to it? Would they put someone like me close to my percentage (in a merged list) that I currently hold at CAL? I doubt either CAL or UAL could be considered a 'failing carrier', so I don't think either has the upper hand when it comes to arguing which group gets the better deal in a merged list.

Someone mentioned that UAL or CAL could propose hire date. How could hire date be proposed when it's not part of the merger policy? If it's agreed upon then we can add that?

Retirement numbers are very close year to year, but like someone pointed out, UAL has roughly twice the pilots.

Some of you guys who have experience in ALPA or mergers or just know some history....is there a lot more to be considering, or is this basically it?

ALPA merger policy once included DOH and length of service criteria. It's been "refined" over the years. With NWA/REP they added a career expectations metric. DOH is very simple, keeping it simple drives the sharks nuts and that's a good thing. The airlines have similiar fundamentals, it's not entirely inappropriate to suggest we skip arbitration and take a look at some version of DOH. We have to ask ourselves: what kind of airline do we want on the other side of this deal? By all accounts, the combination of these two airlines is supposed to be a VERY lucrative business. Do we want to screw it up and make it like NWA?

I suppose you could pick the date you want to use.

 

[Andy]

By all accounts, the combination of these two airlines is supposed to be a VERY lucrative business.

Just as long as Continental management runs the show.

 

[densoo]

With the leadership change in IAH our MEC is now solid and no weaker than our UAL counterparts.

Which leadership change were you talking about? The one last year or the one in this email I got today! (or the one next week or next month or next year):

December 13, 2006

TO ALL MEMBERS OF THE CAL MEC

Gentlemen and Ladies:

The purpose of this letter is to advise you that your three MEC officers will resign from office effective January 31, 2007.

...........................

It has been an honor and privilege to serve our fellow pilots. We are very pleased with the accomplishments we have helped to achieve, and stand ready to assist our union in the future.

Fraternally,

chill out negotiating merged lists on this forum will serve no purpose other than to give you an ulcer or worse a coronary.

Your merger committee is well prepared relax.

It's getting harder everyday.