United and Continental Talking....

[Hvy]

Explain to me again why Continental would ruin their product with UAL employees???

Ahhh...another one crawls out from under their hole.

 

[hyflyt560]

By the time this happens, UAL will likely be hiring. As mentioned above, in 2000, we had 2 year captains at UAL. We're not that far off from having them again. If salary is part of the "career expectation" equation, then ALPA handed the 2172 (furloughees) a horrid card by giving up longevity credit. Another bad hand is our 3 year freeze, particularly for the more senior furloughees because now some of the most junior furloughees are going into the 757/767 and new hires may be doing the same next year. If we don't have fences, those 2172 who are in the Bus or 737 are going to be there for a long time...depending on the integration.

For our sake (UAL), I hope this all occurs after our next contract which will certainly improve our lot in life. And, we can hope that the CAL management team will be in the top spots, but is Tilton really willing to step away from a mega-merger with just the money? He could have done the same thing at Texaco/Chevron.

 

[hyflyt560]

CAL, what happens with your express employees in a merger? Are they part of the equation?

 

[G4G5]

In a nutshell:

Just make sure that CAL management is in charge and UAL management slinks off into the sunset. UAL management got us through a rough period in our history but they can't lead their way out of a paper bag.

United would likely be the surviving name.

Andy,

You and I went round and round about that dirt bag Tilton, last year, glad to see that you finally see the light. This guy can't get out of there fast enough.

The writing has been on the wall since the end of Sept when he hired Goldman Sachs to find a merger partner. I blame him for all of the consolidation and all of the future pain that these mergers will undoubtedly bestow on countless families. It was no coincidence that one he hired GS, Parker went aggressively after DAL. Parker is smart and saw where this was going.

If I was on the UALMEC I would worry about the type of deal that he is willing to cut just to get his options and run. If, when he gives total control to the current CAL mgt. your MEC will be negotiating from an extrememly weak position. Cut your deals now, once he has the option to get out with his millions, all bets are off.

This is from today's WSJ:
"United is so desperate to merge I'm surprised they're not listing on eBay."

--Michael Boyd, aviation consultant at Boyd Group Inc.​

 

[Andy]

You and I went round and round about that dirt bag Tilton, last year, glad to see that you finally see the light. This guy can't get out of there fast enough.

Ah, but there's a difference between being a great leader and a great money man.
Tilton was great at getting United back on track financially; if Goodwin or his successor (Creighton) had stayed at the helm much longer, there likely would not be a United Airlines. He's made a lot of changes at the top levels of United; mostly for the better in terms of financial performance.

I do not think that current United management is incompetent (just look at how much money they extracted from the rank and file employees ); they're just evil, heartless grinches. They do not have the ability/skill to rally the troops and inspire them to do a great job.

UAL management = great money managers, horrible leaders.
CAL management are much better leaders, which is why they're not willing to cede control of CAL's employees to UAL management. After reading about how CAL rebuffed DAL, I can tell you that I'd much rather work for a management team that views loyalty as a two way street.

You are correct that mergers are painful for the rank and file. Just witness all of the gnashing of teeth on this thread over the rumor of a merge.

As far as United's employees getting the shaft if CAL management took over, that's speculation on your part. I think that CAL management is able to look beyond the next quarter and realizes that an AMR/TWA-style merge would not bode well for the company in the long term.

 

[sgu]

UAL management = great money managers, horrible leaders.
CAL management are much better leaders, which is why they're not willing to cede control of CAL's employees to UAL management. After reading about how CAL rebuffed DAL, I can tell you that I'd much rather work for a management team that views loyalty as a two way street.

.

If GB was still CEO then I would agree but now LK is CEO, I would not go as far as saying it is totally a 2 way street. There are still trust issues from the employee standpoint, imo.

 

[Captain X]

CAL, what happens with your express employees in a merger? Are they part of the equation?

Technically, CAL doesn't "have" any express employees. ExpressJet feeds Continental on either a CPA, but they are a separate company with their own employee group.

I believe the outcome for employees ExpressJet would be the same for say, Mesa if the merger came to pass -- Future in flux, but in the meantime status quo until the details of the merger were finalized and in effect.

 

[Captain X]

Not to toss more fuel on the fire, but anyone who bypassed recall (such as myself; offered 25 Sep 06 class date) can return at any time (I will be in the 22 Jan 07 class) until the seniority list is gone through in reverse seniority order. At that time, a bypassing pilot will either accept recall or vacate the seniority list. I'm willing to bet that ~700 pilots will not return to United.

The estimated timeframe for United reaching the bottom of the seniority list is the end of Feb/early Mar 07. I estimate that United will go through the seniority list in reverse order by the end of June 07. So active/inactive pilot is not going to be a factor in any seniority integration.

Please try to refrain from using the word 'staple;' as soon as that word gets used in ANY seniority integration discussion, a free for all usually ensues on both sides. I caution all United pilots to also refrain from using that word.

And that was my point...IF (notice it's big ) someone has bypassed recall at UAL and this thing gets a true head of steam, then those individuals should have to basically "$hit or get off the pot" and accept recall to be back in training (i.e. ACTIVE) prior to the effective date of the seniority integration or they go to the bottom of the list. Basically saying, your SENIORITY rights are good until the integration goes thru. After that, you waive seniority and maintain RECALL rights until they expire under the current or future CBA (hopefully indefinite in this case).

 

[densoo]

Originally Posted by densoo
CAL pilots have had how many changes of leadership (union and otherwise) in the pilot group in the past 10 years? They can't even get it together and stabilized within the pilot group, much less get an equal shake vs management in the last contract. Just last week a new LEC was voted in at IAH. Nothing is settled at CAL.

It's not up to the pilots on this forum or either airline to debate other than for speculation and it has absolutely not bearing on the ultimate outcome. With the leadership change in IAH our MEC is now solid and no weaker than our UAL counterparts.

Now there is a recall afoot for an elected rep who hasn't even taken office yet. Where does it end?

 

[EWR_FO]

Now there is a recall afoot for an elected rep who hasn't even taken office yet. Where does it end?

That's a little bit of an exaggeration, wouldn't you say? The faction behind the noise can't seem to swallow the fact that their days are over.

 

[AA717driver]

Dear CAL people: Whatever happens, you DO NOT want a recall battle if there is a chance that a merger will happen. Your MEC MUST be unified and get the best people in the right position for the integration.

Trust me, dissention in the ranks will ensure you don't get the best deal possible. TC

 

[EWR_FO]

Dear CAL people: Whatever happens, you DO NOT want a recall battle if there is a chance that a merger will happen. Your MEC MUST be unified and get the best people in the right position for the integration.

Trust me, dissention in the ranks will ensure you don't get the best deal possible. TC

It's not an MEC thing, it's ONE guy shooting his mouth off at an LEC rep. My guess would be that this guy has no idea how a union works anyway, he just knows it sounds tough to say "recall."

 

[Green]

Ah, but there's a difference between being a great leader and a great money man.
Tilton was great at getting United back on track financially; if Goodwin or his successor (Creighton) had stayed at the helm much longer, there likely would not be a United Airlines. He's made a lot of changes at the top levels of United; mostly for the better in terms of financial performance.

I do not think that current United management is incompetent (just look at how much money they extracted from the rank and file employees ); they're just evil, heartless grinches. They do not have the ability/skill to rally the troops and inspire them to do a great job.

UAL management = great money managers, horrible leaders.
CAL management are much better leaders, which is why they're not willing to cede control of CAL's employees to UAL management. After reading about how CAL rebuffed DAL, I can tell you that I'd much rather work for a management team that views loyalty as a two way street.

You are correct that mergers are painful for the rank and file. Just witness all of the gnashing of teeth on this thread over the rumor of a merge.

As far as United's employees getting the shaft if CAL management took over, that's speculation on your part. I think that CAL management is able to look beyond the next quarter and realizes that an AMR/TWA-style merge would not bode well for the company in the long term.

Andy,

I don't know if I would agree that UAL management=great money managers. You guys have some of the lowest costs in the industry and should be making money hand over fist yet Tilton seem to be struggling to make significant profits. I think your market cap is relatively low because Wall Street lacks confidence in your management. If UAL could put Bethune or Parker in the ceo spot I would gamble that overnight the stock price would double. Tilton is a mercenary nothing more nothing less. He was brought in to slash and burn. They paid him a fortune to decimate pay and retirement, then move on. He has done a good job so far.

I don't know if a UAL/CAL merger would be good for future earnings of UAL pilots. CAL guys have historically settled for much less. However most of the UAL pilots with any balls have long since retired. Maybe it will work out well......

 

[bizicmo]

Andy,

I don't know if a UAL/CAL merger would be good for future earnings of UAL pilots. CAL guys have historically settled for much less. However most of the UAL pilots with any balls have long since retired. Maybe it will work out well......

Is this an accurate statement? If you were to look at total compensation including pension would UAL pilots be better off then CAL pilots? And if not would that still mean that CAL pilots settled for less?

 

[Andy]

You guys have some of the lowest costs in the industry and should be making money hand over fist yet Tilton seem to be struggling to make significant profits. I think your market cap is relatively low because Wall Street lacks confidence in your management. If UAL could put Bethune or Parker in the ceo spot I would gamble that overnight the stock price would double. Tilton is a mercenary nothing more nothing less. He was brought in to slash and burn. They paid him a fortune to decimate pay and retirement, then move on. He has done a good job so far.

There are a lot of ways to be profitable without showing a profit.
UAUA's market cap is just over $5B; AMR's is just over $7B. UAUA is not excessively undervalued compared to AMR.
Had Creighton remained at the helm, UAUA would not exist. He was not much better than Goodwin in dealing with the financial crisis at UAUA.
I don't argue your points about Tilton, other than the perception that UAUA is struggling to make profits.

I don't know if a UAL/CAL merger would be good for future earnings of UAL pilots. CAL guys have historically settled for much less. However most of the UAL pilots with any balls have long since retired. Maybe it will work out well......

I don't perceive CAL's pilots in that manner.
Your perception of UAL pilots, while not without merit, is more a reflection on the MEC leadership. I thought that Dubo went too far in one direction, Whiteford too far in the other. I'm OK with Bathurst, but there isn't a lot that can be done at this time ... very little leverage on the part of UAL pilots.

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

By the time this happens, UAL will likely be hiring. As mentioned above, in 2000, we had 2 year captains at UAL. We're not that far off from having them again.

Just curious, how do you figure advancement would accelerate so much? I look at United's retirement numbers and they're the same or less as Continental's and United has double the pilot group size, so the relative retirement rate is about 1/2 that of Continental's, I think. (Please correct if I am wrong). Also age 65 is still a wild card.

Maybe you know about staffing requirements for increased int'l flying? That kind of growth could certainly push things along. But based just on retirements it doesn't seem like advancement would be so brisk.

Personally if United starts hiring, I could care less about advancement, as any of about 5 UA bases are better to sit reserve forever than holding a line at any of CAL's armpits.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

Just curious, how do you figure advancement would accelerate so much? I look at United's retirement numbers and they're the same or less as Continental's and United has double the pilot group size, so the relative retirement rate is about 1/2 that of Continental's, I think. (Please correct if I am wrong). Also age 65 is still a wild card.

Maybe you know about staffing requirements for increased int'l flying? That kind of growth could certainly push things along. But based just on retirements it doesn't seem like advancement would be so brisk.

Personally if United starts hiring, I could care less about advancement, as any of about 5 UA bases are better to sit reserve forever than holding a line at any of CAL's armpits.

Is HOU that bad?

Wish we had a MCO or MIA base (we did have an MIA base, but that will soon be an all RJ nightmare!)

 

[ClubORD]

Personally if United starts hiring, I could care less about advancement, as any of about 5 UA bases are better to sit reserve forever than holding a line at any of CAL's armpits.[/quote]


Hell, I'm having as much fun if not more flying out of EWR than I did the 4+ years out of ORD. Maybe it's me?

 

[Booker]

Is HOU that bad?

Yes. Sorry to hear about MIA. I knew one of their CPs, before he was shipped to SFO.

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

Is HOU that bad?

Negatives

1) Weather: Do I really need to get into it? TSRA+Tornadoes/Hurricanes/Flooding/Humidity/Heat

2) People: Overall, about as smart as President Bush#2. Drive pickups with large dead animals in the bed or strapped to the hood to "properly" display them. Drive like crackheads. Plenty of Continental scabs in all the best neighborhoods, better keep your garden tools locked up at night.

3) culture: beer on ice at every gas station.

4) Real Estate: Losing only 10% on resale is a great investment.

5) Environment: Depends on how many chemical plant/refinery fires there are in a given year.

Pluses

1) It's cheap--wonder why?

2) NASA is cool.

 

[GogglesPisano]

And it's the fattest city in America so ..... the food must be tasty.

 

[thor2j]

This is kinda like that Visa commercial.

The punch line...

Not living in New Jersey........Priceless!!!!

 

[propjob27]

Negatives
3) culture: beer on ice at every gas station.

That's a negative??? You queer.

 

[pipe]

Is this R.W. in DEN? If so, what's up? I wouldn't worry too much about being furloughed. A few reasons why I wouldn't if UAL and CAL merge are:

1) UAL is still short on pilots. The recall classes that are planned through FEB07 weren't created for future retirements. They were created because UAL is short now. The recall classes would have been more frequent or in larger numbers this year if TK could have handle it mapower and resource wise. At worst, I see recalls slowing down or stopped for a while but I wouldn't anticipate any furloughs.

2) If it is CAL, they are short also and hiring like crazy. They also have a bunch of new aircraft coming next year. I don't think all of the hiring they are doing right now is in anticipation of the upcomming retirements. Some of them maybe. But not most. I think most of the hiring they're doing is being done because they need those new bodies NOW.

3) A lot of folks are anxious about being urloughed again but I can't think of a merger that resulted in furloughs after the fact. I'm sure there may be one or two cases but I can't think of any right now. Heck, even after AMR bought TWA, that didn't result in any furloughs. That didn't happen until after 9/11. After AMR bought TWA, they were STILL hiring about 30 pilots a week and there was some overlap. Even though there was a lot less overlap, no furloghs have happened since Airways and America West became one. Yes, AmWest stopped hiring, but they didn't furlough. And Airways furloughees are still coming back.

So I'm not saying it could happen, anything can happen. But, I wouldn't be overly concerned about it right now. Thye haven't even announced anything yet. We're so far away from when an integration would come. By that time, UAL could possibly be all the way back up the list again. There are more than a couple other factors that would get us re-furloughed before a merger will.


D-Bo aka A.F. from your new-hire class in 3/2000 if this is R.W. I'm talking to.

That is a very poor analysis. Many of those furloughs were coming either way. AA was desperately looking to park the F-100 (read JUNK). As I recall that was about 100 airplanes (= furloughs). They had already said they would not keep 757's with different engines over the long term (= furloughs). They were not going to keep DC-9's (= furloughs). They did not intend to keep the 717 (= furloughs). All of that was pre 9-11. Other than that, your analysis is right on.

PIPE

 

[densoo]

Originally Posted by densoo in January 2007 http://forums.flightinfo.com/images/...s/viewpost.gif
CAL pilots have had how many changes of leadership (union and otherwise) in the pilot group in the past 10 years? They can't even get it together and stabilized within the pilot group, much less get an equal shake vs management in the last contract. Just last week a new LEC was voted in at IAH. Nothing is settled at CAL.

Originally Posted by densoo
Now there is a recall afoot for an elected rep who hasn't even taken office yet. Where does it end?

Originally Posted by EWR FO
That's a little bit of an exaggeration, wouldn't you say? The faction behind the noise can't seem to swallow the fact that their days are over.

Less than a year later and now there is another recall afoot to remove current CAL MEC chair. Contract negotiations and mergers are going to be fun when they can't settle on one guy to lead just one complete term. Company's gotta love it.

 

[densoo]

I was talking about the new IAH reps to take office in March. Now combined with the EWR reps our two largest bases have very strong, forward looking reps who are not afraid to make tough aggressive decisions. I was suprised by the MEC officers annoucement and I respect their decision.

Back during the IACP days we had a very strong leadership but an inherently week union with little or no resoucres. Then we brought in ALPA and all of it's muscle and we elected weak leaders (Contract 02 disaster) supported by a ununifed membership.

Today we have for the first time ever, strong leadership, a solid union and a unified pilot group (because of all of our hiring and attrition). I look at recent events as extremely positive. The CAL pilots are now a force to be reackoned with.

The above was written in Dec 2006. So discouraging. Here it is 13 months later and CALALPA LEC leadership just gave a no confidence vote on the MEC Chair for, among other things, apparent absenteeism. He refuses to recognize this as binding. So they'll be a more binding vote (?) later this month to oust him. And all this in the middle of contract negotiations.

 

[Ex737Driver]

Yeah, but Snake did get us preferential hiring and furlough protection/rights with COPA last week.

 

[densoo]

Well, yet another one goes down. CAL MEC Chair voted out today. How many does that make who haven't completed a full term since CAL has had IACP followed by ALPA?

 

[PCL_128]

Well, yet another one goes down. CAL MEC Chair voted out today. How many does that make who haven't completed a full term since CAL has had IACP followed by ALPA?

What exactly was the issue with the Master Chairman? Why the recall? Any idea who the replacement will be?

 

[Crucianpilot]

Negatives

1) Weather: Do I really need to get into it? TSRA+Tornadoes/Hurricanes/Flooding/Humidity/Heat

How often you think this happens? In almost 3 yrs here, maybe once or twice has it affected me. I'll take heat over cold anyday.

2) People: Overall, about as smart as President Bush#2. Drive pickups with large dead animals in the bed or strapped to the hood to "properly" display them. Drive like crackheads. Plenty of Continental scabs in all the best neighborhoods, better keep your garden tools locked up at night.

Don't live there so really can't comment.

3) culture: beer on ice at every gas station. And thats a bad thing?

4) Real Estate: Losing only 10% on resale is a great investment. Sure this is true in other cities as well.


5) Environment: Depends on how many chemical plant/refinery fires there are in a given year.

Then don't live next to one.

Pluses

1) It's cheap--wonder why?

2) NASA is cool.

Its a hell of a lot easier commute for me than going to Newark. Nuf said.