Union coming at Flexjet!

[exagony]

Mr. dbman, guess you can believe any thing you want about Flexjet actively tracking you, about space aliens, or anything else you want to believe. But you really reveal your hand in your 3rd paragraph when you state “rumour has it...blah blah blah. Care to site ONE example from your rumour source.

I've read quite a few pro-union posts here, but I believe you have just set a new standard for made-up grievances and half-truths...I hope and believe that Flexjetter's reading your missive will recognize it for what it is.

Mr. exagony, your prevous post (4-9-11) on Flex having a “hostile working environment” struck me as phony at best, self-serving at worst....you obviously have never worked at a company that had that type of environment. Your last word was “Thoughts?” I gave you my immediate thought...perhaps I should have waited a few minutes and, though my thoughts would be the same, could have said the more politically correct phrase “full of corn”.
WL

Well Mr Warlord - you explicitly accused me of calling anti union people names here. Look like you can't prove it because it didn't happen. As a matter of fact I said that everyone needs to research both sides for themselves and to do what is best for them. Hardly calling anyone names... No need to apologize as its explicitly clear that you are either mgt or working for an union busting company. As far as working in a hostile working environement 2 things - you have no idea where I have worked and I have indeed worked in a very hostile working environment. So yes I do know what I am talking about. When mgt/company implies "consequences" for voting pro union it is an implied/veiled threat to those who may want a union. This is against the law. Don't believe me? Just look at the BB and tell me why there are only mgt/training dept pilots piping up against the union. Line pilots who have to deal with the edicts passed down by mgt are afraid to voice up as doing so jepordizes their job. If you deny this is the truth - it would only prove more so that you are mgt or working for H&F. Not only is this against the law NRLB - look it up - it also makes a hostile working environment as those who have different opinions/views fear reprecussions or termination because they don't toe the company line. Mr Reid and Turner and Gross all have contracts - why not the pilots? If you think all the pro-union guys are wrong then lets put it to a vote now and get it over with. I can live with it either way. The motivation for a union- as I understand it- is not about pay - its about having a legitimate voice with the company - not a dictatorship as it stands right now. The FOFG staffed by pilots are told what issues are going to be addressed at their meetings by Turner. We can propose anything we want but he and only he decides what is discussed... WTFO??? Rules at Flex are constantly bent to the company's benefit at their whim - but should a pilot do the same we are called in the office for a "talk". God forbid someone voices concern on the "changeband" bs - they will get called in for a carpet dance for that too as several pilots already have. Everyone worth their salt wants Flex to be sucessful but many pilots are just sick of the company's heavy hand. If you like it here without a union - good for you I ask you to vote that way - the rest of us will vote what is best for us. Whichever way that turns out to be.

 

[brokeflyer]

people like warlord are exactly why you need a union. A union not only protects the employees, it protects the company from itself. Management would love nothing better than to have you all work 20 hour days flying broken airplanes....

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

I think that one of the main drivers for a union - and justifiably so - is that a union would give the pilots a "voice" with management that they have to listen to. How many times does the company interpet the rules to the "company's benefit" vs the "pilot's benefit". Seems the chief pilots and management always find a way to twist and bend the FOM to the company's favor and very rarely to the pilot's favor. The rules are the rules as long as they are applied to the pilot's group - yet when the pilots call the company out on violating the same rules we get the "well that is not what we intended it to mean when we wrote it"...
How about the FOFG -guys and gals doing their best to present issues to mgt. Yet MGT AND ONLY MGT gets to decide what issues are discussed and when. With a union - we the pilot group - get a LEGITIMATE voice in what is to be discussed and fixed - not just mgt.
A union will provide relief for pilots being treated like red headed step children by mgt and scheduling. It will force them to "play by the rules" just like we have to. No more of the adjusting an early morning show by a few minutes so that they can aviod a min day even thought its obvious that is exactly what happens.
For all the previously non union members of FLex - including alot of the senior cool aid drinkers... WAKE UP! No a union won't save a job, but it will give you a voice in what happens should someone buys us out. It will give you backup for when mgt/scheduling tries to bend/break the rules in the FOM that we are forced to live by but they do so at their whim. It will force mgt to actually address issues that the pilot group has been pressing for but mgt continuously sidesteps. The list goes on and on. A union doesn't have to be contentious - look at Southwest - it just gives the pilots a legitimate voice that mgt HAS TO LISTEN TO vs the way they do bx now.
Before anyone cries about dues - its tax deductable and at the end of the day it will most likely be a push or near push when you do your taxes every year. $1500 or so a year is not going to break the bank for any of our senior pilots. (I have no idea what it would be as I am not involved in the organizing of this)

Lastly I would say everyone should EDUCATE themselves about the realities of a union. Don't listen to the mgt hacks nor to the union hacks - educate yourself and do what's in YOUR BEST INTEREST.

Well Said, ExAgony. I wouldnt worry too much about that other guy a few posts up from here....Same old dance, different partner. Stay educated and informed.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Hey Warlord

I see you live up to your name by supporting our great group of managers. Woohoo.
And you say you're not management, right.

Warlord
noun
A military commander exercising civil power in a region, whether in nominal allegiance to the national government or in defiance of it.

 

[netjetwife]

Some basic reasons to form a Union....

A seat at the table is not too much to ask.
And written rules you can count on to last.

A voice to raise issues that matter to you.
Deserve a say in your career? Yes you do!

Voting on your future is the American way.
Send in those cards with out further delay.



Best wishes to the Flex pilots and families! I know that my family is better off with the contract in place at NJ and I do believe that getting it in writing would benefit your group as well. Good luck with your card drive! NJW

 

[dbman]

Warlord --

Rumor -- having been told directly by other people it has happened to them but not have had the experience myself, I am being as fair as possible referring to it as rumor versus fact. I cannot verify anything I'm not in the room for. But there are many stories of those who were in the room but fear the reprisal of management if they were to specifically speak out. I would never wish anyone to risk their employment simply to please you or get a union in place. If anyone around here is sinking to a new low, look in the mirror.

Those of us that ACTUALLY work here, and not behind a F&H desk all know what they need know to decipher the facts in my post. Whether it passes you're agendized smell test is not my concern. I think the fact it rattled you says all it needs to.

And as far as the space aliens crack, almost every legitimate news organization out there has done a piece or two regarding how technology has changed the workplace and specifically mentions tracking tactics. I would say if Flexjet ISN'T doing it, they are behind the ball. Are you really as stupid and aimlessly argumentative as you come across or is there something I am missing? Not name-calling, I am honestly trying to figure out a way to put some modicum of value to your posts, I just can't figure out how...

Exagony - Perfect posts. Thanks for your clarity on the issues.

 

[johnnyride24]

Flex will never have what it takes to unionize, its all talk!!!!!!

 

[warlord19]

Boys, I had to put in 4 hours at the Harrison Ford Famous Actor/Union Buster Ltd desk today, then catch a flight to my a/c, fly a leg, and then make my way to this hotel where I can now see all your posts and missives. My, we have been busy...and, check out those boots on the always popular netjetwife avatar, plus the beautiful poem she wrote for all of us.
I was going to address you individually since each one of you took the time to post, but I 'm getting tired of rowing in the wind. Instead, here's a little story. Over the past couple of weeks I've flown with 3 different FO's (a rotation, then some time with HFFA/UB LTD, then another rotation, and all 3 of them were not in favour of a union at Flex. When you call me and other FreeFlex posters all your cute little names and accuse us of being management toads, trolls, panty sniffers, etc, I think you are calling a lot of Flex pilots those same names, hopefully a majority of them. I'll reiterate my stance(and that of many others) now...having weighed the benefits and costs associated with bringing a union on property, I chose not to have them here...it's really that simple....I couldn't care less what NJ, CS, FO or anybody else does...I only care about what happens to Flex.
WL

 

[exagony]

Boys, I had to put in 4 hours at the Harrison Ford Famous Actor/Union Buster Ltd desk today, then catch a flight to my a/c, fly a leg, and then make my way to this hotel where I can now see all your posts and missives. My, we have been busy...and, check out those boots on the always popular netjetwife avatar, plus the beautiful poem she wrote for all of us.
I was going to address you individually since each one of you took the time to post, but I 'm getting tired of rowing in the wind. Instead, here's a little story. Over the past couple of weeks I've flown with 3 different FO's (a rotation, then some time with HFFA/UB LTD, then another rotation, and all 3 of them were not in favour of a union at Flex. When you call me and other FreeFlex posters all your cute little names and accuse us of being management toads, trolls, panty sniffers, etc, I think you are calling a lot of Flex pilots those same names, hopefully a majority of them. I'll reiterate my stance(and that of many others) now...having weighed the benefits and costs associated with bringing a union on property, I chose not to have them here...it's really that simple....I couldn't care less what NJ, CS, FO or anybody else does...I only care about what happens to Flex.
WL

Still waiting for you to show me where I attacked non union supporters or called them names... line pilots tend not to open up to mgt pilots.... btw I support your stance as its your right to vote that way... - that is your opinion and you should vote that way. If a union is voted in welcome aboard - if not we'll just continue to "enjoy" the current mgt style of "do I say not as I do". Funny that you say line pilot's are not supportive - been here for quite a few of the union drives - the desperation from Waterview and you mgt pilots has never been so evident....

 

[exagony]

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[warlord19]

Mr. exagony, on 4-9-2011 you wrote your somewhat paranoid “consequences” and “hostile working environment” missive, and asked for HR Gurus to affirm your decree. That, to me, is just another generalized statement aimed at stirring the pot, and was not meant to be instructive to anyone in any meaningful way. I responded to your call for thoughts, and said that “anytime anyone opposes a union here blah,blah...I take your statements, along with most others, as an attack on anyone who has different thoughts about unions. I couldn't find where I accused you personally of anything. And of course that famous poster and troll Whizz or Grizz or whoever had to make his enlightening comment. I don't care for that boy.
Anyways, I appreciate you posting that link to the other F-H site. Being a management pilot and all, I should know this, but can you tell me for sure if we employ them...I really don't know, but after looking at their web-site, hope we do.
Oh, BTW, if you don't know any of the consequences of bringing a union on property, perhaps you should look into it.
It's late, so I'm going to get inside my aluminum foil lined pyramid and catch a few zzzzz's. THEY can't track me in there, ya know.
WL

 

[exagony]

Mr. exagony, on 4-9-2011 you wrote your somewhat paranoid “consequences” and “hostile working environment” missive, and asked for HR Gurus to affirm your decree. That, to me, is just another generalized statement aimed at stirring the pot, and was not meant to be instructive to anyone in any meaningful way. I responded to your call for thoughts, and said that “anytime anyone opposes a union here blah,blah...I take your statements, along with most others, as an attack on anyone who has different thoughts about unions. I couldn't find where I accused you personally of anything. And of course that famous poster and troll Whizz or Grizz or whoever had to make his enlightening comment. I don't care for that boy.
Anyways, I appreciate you posting that link to the other F-H site. Being a management pilot and all, I should know this, but can you tell me for sure if we employ them...I really don't know, but after looking at their web-site, hope we do.
Oh, BTW, if you don't know any of the consequences of bringing a union on property, perhaps you should look into it.
It's late, so I'm going to get inside my aluminum foil lined pyramid and catch a few zzzzz's. THEY can't track me in there, ya know.
WL

Let me copy your post personally accusing me of attacking people:
My thoughts.....your full of *hit. Anytime anyone opposes a union on property or has a different view ie independant, you attack them personally, call them names, and generally come up with something like your post, whose ONLY purpose is to stir the pot. I think your troll "Grizz" calls them straw persons, erh, men.
WL

Seems pretty straight forward to me...

Seems to like you F&H guys need to get together and vette your posts....Already know the consequences of bringing a union on the property... also have been here long enough to see/experience the consequences of not having a union on property.

 

[warlord19]

Exagony, you need to review your basic English structure. The "you" which you take so personally, refers to it's antecedant "anyone". You probably need to move on, Brother.
WL

 

[Club ORD FO]

OK heres a question for the furloughed Flexers. Do you wish we had a union here when you got furloughed? Or would you have been no better off than the current situation.

Just wondering your thoughts, thanks

 

[netjetwife]

Flex will never have what it takes to unionize, its all talk!!!!!!

Some here used to say that about Flt Ops and now they have a contract in place to build upon with rules that must be followed and a voice that can't be ignored. The FUD spreaders also used to tell NJA pilots to give up their pursuit of a fair contract, claiming they didn't have what it takes....

Flex pilots as a group (not a few insulting posters here) will collectively decide their fate, as many others before them have, but I have no doubt that professional pilots capable of delivering exceptional service in often challenging conditions can figure out how to speak to management with one voice and are certainly able to discuss what they want in a contract.

 

[OldCrow]

19

Well hello Warlord 19. I am a FLOPs Pilot. I know I have seen your one sided posts before during our union drive...perhaps you were B 19 back then. No matter. We, collectively/majority, disregarded your management "perfect world" rants for 3 years. We now have a CBA, and even though we are still the lowest paid frac, it is the best thing we ever did, with what we had to work with/without.
If FLEX or CA are in the same, or even close, to the same situation we were in, how could you even think there would be a different outcome? Other than our neck ties, we are all pretty much the same cut of cloth, pardon the pun.
We are recalling pilots, and adding to our fleet. Pilot shopping/pushing, and management defined duty days are a thing of the past. Even though we are still the lowest paid, we still got over a 18% raise in pay, with no chance of reduction, creep, slide to parity, or any other such nonsense with regard to our pay benefits. I'm very happy with that.
The rumor was FLOPs was paying Ford&Harrison close to $2,000.000 per year to keep us from our current CBA...what a waste. In my opinion, it is without doubt you are not a line Pilot. I'm sure that pilots at FLEX and CA can figure it out. If you were a line Pilot, you would know it to
You REAL line Pilots, please ask allot of questions, to include stopping any Flight Options Pilot and get both sides of the issue. And there are two sides. We made our choice, and over 80% are happy with the result. Best of luck ya'll !!

 

[netjetwife]

....... Best of luck ya'll !!

Hear, hear, OC! Good post! I well remember all those FUD-filled rants and the management paid-for anti-union smear campaign the Options group stood up against to get their first (usually the most difficult) contract. Your group has reason to crow.... Pun intended....

On a more serious note, frac pilots (and families) do have much in common and the gains by one group have been proven to benefit others in the industry. Kudos to the Flex and CA pilots for standing up for themselves, their families, and the profession. Absolutely...Best of luck ya'll !! NJW

 

[warlord19]

Well Hello to you, Mr. OldCrow. I am a Flexjet pilot. I've previously posted on THIS board that IF working conditions were as bad as the comments here indicated, then FO should probably unionize...I am not against unions if they are needed. I don't know where you came up with the “perfect world” claim. I know I don't work at a perfect company cause there is no such thing. I do, however, work at a company that improves itself all the time and will continue to do so. I certainly DON'T buy your thought that “one size fits all”, ie all Fracs need to unionize cause one or two fracs suck. I've never denied the fact there are 2 sides to any question...the question to Flex pilots is “what is in my best interest in this unionization vote.” I happen to think a majority of the pilots will say NO if it ever gets to that stage. And if enough of our pilots feel that our few problems are worth the costs of unionization, then we will have a union.
WL

 

[NewFlex]

warlord19 Identity confirmed, Thank You

 

[Cautious Belly]

Uh oh! Identity confirmed! That's Teamsterspeak for, "Now we'z know who youse iz, we'z gonna kneecap you, or wurz! Youz bez watch yez back, you!"

Pathetic wannabe goon.