Union coming at Flexjet!

[dime line]

Jetmaster and lunberg, that's one of the few legitimate reasons to vote union. Now, on your part, show me one, just one, instance where someone has been fired from Flexjet that didn't have just cause. If someone goofs up now, they explain to the ACP what happened, get's talked to or slapped on the wrist (unless the FAA expects more), and it's done. It's just one reason why I don't vote for a union AT Flexjet. If we unionize here, then you can bet any goofy moron that slips thru the hiring process and gets hired will have the full protection(if his dues are fully paid) of the union no mater what he does or who he kills.
WL

There were 70 over at FLOPS that were fired without "Just Cause"!

 

[John MClain]

Most of us non-union pilots are not disagreeing that this flying gig isn't hard at times. What I'm asking is how a union is going to help....still no answer, cause you don't have one. The job will still be difficult after(if) a union comes on property, probably will be easier since my pockets will be a lot lighter. I think a lot of pro-union guys want to unionize 'cause it's the trendy thing to do now.....show me I'll get my monies worth voting union and I'll join your little conga line. And JokerFuel is right....keep this thread civil...it is open to anyone, and both sides are expressing their opinions.
WL

How about having a say in what and how our FOM and CFM's get changed?

Here's just one example: Early show limited duty time was changed/reduced by 1 minute. That 1 minute garnered an additional 2 hours of duty on those very early start days. And there are lots more. Every time you log on to the Bluebelly and acknowledge the changes to our manuals and essentially how we do business is just another missed opportunity for us to have a say in our future.

How about having a level and consistent policy regarding compliance with those manuals? As of now, they can change and or disregard all non-regulatory procedures in order to make a piece of a puzzle fit that would not otherwise never be feasible because of someone else's incompetence.

These situations happen on a regular basis. It's seems as though the only ones held accountable and are required to have 100% compliance with these documents are the crewmembers.

 

[lr45drvr]

warlord -

A union doesn't prevent terminations for just cause. It just adds a process to insure that the just cause provisions are met. I know of a number of NetJets pilots that have been fired for just cause.

Next strawman please.

This is absolutely true. A person can still be terminated for just cause regardless of union representation.

The question still stands- Who has ever been fired, without cause, from Flexjet? I'm not aware of 1 single instance.

If you make a mistake, own it! Unless you killed a bus load of nuns with the CVR saying "watch this", I'd bet you're safe.

Unions are like herpes- you can't just get rid of em. Once you feed the cat, he's gonna move in and crap in your bed. There isn't anything you can do to stop it.

Look at who the IBT represents- all the bottom feeders (FLOPS Excluded)
Sorry but I don't want to have to pay extra money from my check into a strike fund, because Ameriflight or Kalitta depleted it.

 

[notapilot]

Most of us non-union pilots are not disagreeing that this flying gig isn't hard at times. What I'm asking is how a union is going to help....still no answer, cause you don't have one. The job will still be difficult after(if) a union comes on property, probably will be easier since my pockets will be a lot lighter. I think a lot of pro-union guys want to unionize 'cause it's the trendy thing to do now.....show me I'll get my monies worth voting union and I'll join your little conga line. And JokerFuel is right....keep this thread civil...it is open to anyone, and both sides are expressing their opinions.
WL

No one can tell you why you need a union. This is a decision you need to make for yourself. I pay $9000/year for different insurance policies. Why would we not be willing to pay tax deductable insurance dues for our careers that affords us the luxury to pay for all these other policies.

Being a pilot is a little different than most other professions. If you change jobs in most other professions you can have a fair shot at finding a comparable paying job in a reasonable period of time. If you have been at Flexjet for 8 or more years it will likely take you over a decade to get back to where you were monetarily.

We have no recourse if a third party purchases our company and decides to slash benefits, rules, and pay. We have no united crewmember voice to deal with integration if we are purchased by a competitor.

We don't wholly trust Bombardier, Flexjet, or Jet Solutions.

The latest focus group has identified our concerns. Re-read the email sent discussing the top 5 issues management has decided to tackle. Ask yourself if their solutions or lack of solutions are appropriate to the concerns.

This is not a trendy decision. Ask any Netjets pilot if their contract is well worth their dues. The argument of a union protecting the inept is laughable. We already have our share of inept that the company chooses not to deal with. You are correct that most everyone has been reasonably terminated. So where do these rumors about unjust firings come from. The culture here is to not reprimand for the serious act, but put it in their back pocket and eventually reprimand for a future senseless reason. This a method to control through fear and intimidation. Why do you think so many are so fearful of their jobs at Flexjet.

Let's get this straight right now. No pro-union pilot is anti-Flexjet. It is in fact the opposite. Whether you are pro or anti union, I can assure you that we all have the same goals in mind. I am proud of the positive tone taking place on the IBT board. The tone here is pretty much the opposite due to anti-union bloggers. Who are the thugs again?

 

[NewFlex]

This is absolutely true. A person can still be terminated for just cause regardless of union representation.

The question still stands- Who has ever been fired, without cause, from Flexjet? I'm not aware of 1 single instance.

If you make a mistake, own it! Unless you killed a bus load of nuns with the CVR saying "watch this", I'd bet you're safe.

Unions are like herpes- you can't just get rid of em. Once you feed the cat, he's gonna move in and crap in your bed. There isn't anything you can do to stop it.

Look at who the IBT represents- all the bottom feeders (FLOPS Excluded)
Sorry but I don't want to have to pay extra money from my check into a strike fund, because Ameriflight or Kalitta depleted it.

Hey ACP, aren't you late for lunch with the other trolls today. Oh, that's right, you don't get invited to hang with the other trolls do you. So sad, not even good enough to hang with the other scared little office boys. Have fun working on your FUD project.

later DWAYNE, now back in your hole

 

[John MClain]

No one can tell you why you need a union. This is a decision you need to make for yourself. I pay $9000/year for different insurance policies. Why would we not be willing to pay tax deductable insurance dues for our careers that affords us the luxury to pay for all these other policies.

Being a pilot is a little different than most other professions. If you change jobs in most other professions you can have a fair shot at finding a comparable paying job in a reasonable period of time. If you have been at Flexjet for 8 or more years it will likely take you over a decade to get back to where you were monetarily.

We have no recourse if a third party purchases our company and decides to slash benefits, rules, and pay. We have no united crewmember voice to deal with integration if we are purchased by a competitor.




We don't wholly trust Bombardier, Flexjet, or Jet Solutions.

The latest focus group has identified our concerns. Re-read the email sent discussing the top 5 issues management has decided to tackle. Ask yourself if their solutions or lack of solutions are appropriate to the concerns.

This is not a trendy decision. Ask any Netjets pilot if their contract is well worth their dues. The argument of a union protecting the inept is laughable. We already have our share of inept that the company chooses not to deal with. You are correct that most everyone has been reasonably terminated. So where do these rumors about unjust firings come from. The culture here is to not reprimand for the serious act, but put it in their back pocket and eventually reprimand for a future senseless reason. This a method to control through fear and intimidation. Why do you think so many are so fearful of their jobs at Flexjet.

Let's get this straight right now. No pro-union pilot is anti-Flexjet. It is in fact the opposite. Whether you are pro or anti union, I can assure you that we all have the same goals in mind. I am proud of the positive tone taking place on the IBT board. The tone here is pretty much the opposite due to anti-union bloggers. Who are the thugs again?

Very well written.

The opposing view should be very entertaining.

 

[lr45drvr]

Hey ACP, aren't you late for lunch with the other trolls today. Oh, that's right, you don't get invited to hang with the other trolls do you. So sad, not even good enough to hang with the other scared little office boys. Have fun working on your FUD project.

later DWAYNE, now back in your hole

You're WAAAAY OFF!


"No pro-union pilot is anti-Flexjet"---------

Is this what PRO-Union/PRO-Flexjet people write? Very Productive! We need more people like you!

PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELVES GUYS AND GALS!!!!!!

This is not something to be taken lightly. Be careful of what you read and hear. It doesn't matter what side you are on. I urge you to educate YOURSELF. This decision ultimately affects YOU as an individual as well as the whole group!

 

[lr45drvr]

No one can tell you why you need a union. This is a decision you need to make for yourself. I pay $9000/year for different insurance policies. Why would we not be willing to pay tax deductable insurance dues for our careers that affords us the luxury to pay for all these other policies.

Being a pilot is a little different than most other professions. If you change jobs in most other professions you can have a fair shot at finding a comparable paying job in a reasonable period of time. If you have been at Flexjet for 8 or more years it will likely take you over a decade to get back to where you were monetarily.

We have no recourse if a third party purchases our company and decides to slash benefits, rules, and pay. We have no united crewmember voice to deal with integration if we are purchased by a competitor.

We don't wholly trust Bombardier, Flexjet, or Jet Solutions.

The latest focus group has identified our concerns. Re-read the email sent discussing the top 5 issues management has decided to tackle. Ask yourself if their solutions or lack of solutions are appropriate to the concerns.

This is not a trendy decision. Ask any Netjets pilot if their contract is well worth their dues. The argument of a union protecting the inept is laughable. We already have our share of inept that the company chooses not to deal with. You are correct that most everyone has been reasonably terminated. So where do these rumors about unjust firings come from. The culture here is to not reprimand for the serious act, but put it in their back pocket and eventually reprimand for a future senseless reason. This a method to control through fear and intimidation. Why do you think so many are so fearful of their jobs at Flexjet.

Let's get this straight right now. No pro-union pilot is anti-Flexjet. It is in fact the opposite. Whether you are pro or anti union, I can assure you that we all have the same goals in mind. I am proud of the positive tone taking place on the IBT board. The tone here is pretty much the opposite due to anti-union bloggers. Who are the thugs again?

Without a doubt this is well written. And I do agree that we have the same goals in mind- a better place to work. However, there are no guarantees even with a union.


I'm not sure about your back pocket reprimand theory??? I would need to hear of some specifics.

I don't wholly trust at least one of the afformentioned groups either. But I have to believe that the people who lead the ones that rhyme with Rexbet and Fromfartyhay, have their own best interests in mind (i.e. keeping the company profitable and moving forward, which includes appeasing the employees reasonable needs and requests), which in turn protects my own interests. Even Pet Revolutions has our best interests in mind if you consider how well they keep the feds appeased. One thing I do know for a fact is that I don't trust the Teamsters.

Just look up this link:

http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/uniondecertification.cfm?id=55

I don't think anyone within our 3 organizations has ever been accused of whats on there.

 

[notapilot]

"No pro-union pilot is anti-Flexjet"---------

Is this what PRO-Union/PRO-Flexjet people write? Very Productive! We need more people like you!

I think my message was pretty straight forward. I won't get involved in your anti-union vicious personal attacks. I am just curious what issue you have with my statement.

 

[doh]

I have another question. Since we are not under the RLA, can management change the rules after we certify the union? We don't have stutus quo restrictions do we?

 

[notapilot]

lr45drvr

"Without a doubt this is well written. And I do agree that we have the same goals in mind- a better place to work. However, there are no guarantees even with a union."

In life my friend, there are no guarantees. This does not mean we sit back and wait on destiny. I know we all have the same goals. Some of us just have a different idea about how to get there. After 16 years of history many of us have realized that these goals will not be attained through cabs and focus groups. This is evident from the failures of the latest focus group. Same old stuff.

"I'm not sure about your back pocket reprimand theory??? I would need to hear of some specifics."

I am not going into details about this subject, but I believe that the majority of crewmembers understand what is being said.

"I don't wholly trust at least one of the afformentioned groups either. But I have to believe that the people who lead the ones that rhyme with Rexbet and Fromfartyhay, have their own best interests in mind (i.e. keeping the company profitable and moving forward, which includes appeasing the employees reasonable needs and requests), which in turn protects my own interests. Even Pet Revolutions has our best interests in mind if you consider how well they keep the feds appeased. One thing I do know for a fact is that I don't trust the Teamsters."

We can trust who we will. Many of us happen to trust our crewmember brothers and sisters who share OUR common interests more than any of the groups mentioned. You said that you don't wholly trust 33% of the groups. Remember that each of these groups have 100% control of your future. In Vegas I say these are bad odds when there is so much on the line. No one would negotiate a contract that truly jeopardizes our long term interests. This is just a scare tactic to pull on our heart strings. We are the union. We will be the ones negotiating our contract. From what I understand, we keep 75% of dues which is very good in comparison to other national trade unions. The IBT 1108 will provide us the tools and for that we will pay a reasonable fee as in any business.

"Just look up this link:

http://www.unionfacts.com/unions/uniondecertification.cfm?id=55

I don't think anyone within our 3 organizations has ever been accused of whats on there."

Any one of us can make a laundry list of executive malevolent behavior throughout the business world. Thankfully we have not experienced the degree of any of this at any of our organizations. This is not a move against our organizations. To be fair I don't think any management decision could address the scope of our concerns. This is a move to level the playing field and have a more secure future for each one of us. We are the largest employee group at this company and we currently have no voice in ANY DECISIONS that affect us directly. A famous union buster said that a tactic often employed is for a company to start a campaign that tries to cause simpathy and pitty for company executives and their decisions. Is this the ploy we are starting to see on internet message boards and internal messages?

One thing is for sure as you pointed out. We essentially work for three organizations. All three have different interests for their success and we are the pawns stuck in the middle. We can not operate as 400 individual pawns. We need one collective voice that can deal with the forces that pull us in three seperate directions.

 

[warlord19]

Oh, lets start with the GRIZ...dude, you need to look up the definition of strawman. Next...Jetmaster, still waiting for that ONE case.
Notapilot..I assume you need those policies for a wife and kids. You want to pay an ADDITIONAL 25-3500/yr for “job insurance” go ahead. You might want to ask the TWA pilots absorbed by AA how that insurance worked for them or the 500+ at NJ.
Leaving one flying job for another usually puts you on the bottom of the list at the next company...how is a union going to change that? The golden rule always wins out in acquistions...you got the gold ie you are the buyer, you make the rules. If Ken R got in bed with a rich Russian billionaire and bought NJ, do you think for one minute NJ pilots are going ahead of FO pilots...I assume FO pilots have some balls(?). (Boy, can't wait to hear the howls from this). It pretty well comes down to this.....Bombardier has enough protection for me, but apparently not for you. Flexjet is run professionally and has NO history of firing people for no cause. You want to buy hi-priced insurance for mostly pittly-ass stuff, vote your union in.
WL

 

[exagony]

I think that one of the main drivers for a union - and justifiably so - is that a union would give the pilots a "voice" with management that they have to listen to. How many times does the company interpet the rules to the "company's benefit" vs the "pilot's benefit". Seems the chief pilots and management always find a way to twist and bend the FOM to the company's favor and very rarely to the pilot's favor. The rules are the rules as long as they are applied to the pilot's group - yet when the pilots call the company out on violating the same rules we get the "well that is not what we intended it to mean when we wrote it"...
How about the FOFG -guys and gals doing their best to present issues to mgt. Yet MGT AND ONLY MGT gets to decide what issues are discussed and when. With a union - we the pilot group - get a LEGITIMATE voice in what is to be discussed and fixed - not just mgt.
A union will provide relief for pilots being treated like red headed step children by mgt and scheduling. It will force them to "play by the rules" just like we have to. No more of the adjusting an early morning show by a few minutes so that they can aviod a min day even thought its obvious that is exactly what happens.
For all the previously non union members of FLex - including alot of the senior cool aid drinkers... WAKE UP! No a union won't save a job, but it will give you a voice in what happens should someone buys us out. It will give you backup for when mgt/scheduling tries to bend/break the rules in the FOM that we are forced to live by but they do so at their whim. It will force mgt to actually address issues that the pilot group has been pressing for but mgt continuously sidesteps. The list goes on and on. A union doesn't have to be contentious - look at Southwest - it just gives the pilots a legitimate voice that mgt HAS TO LISTEN TO vs the way they do bx now.
Before anyone cries about dues - its tax deductable and at the end of the day it will most likely be a push or near push when you do your taxes every year. $1500 or so a year is not going to break the bank for any of our senior pilots. (I have no idea what it would be as I am not involved in the organizing of this)

Lastly I would say everyone should EDUCATE themselves about the realities of a union. Don't listen to the mgt hacks nor to the union hacks - educate yourself and do what's in YOUR BEST INTEREST.

 

[FalconPilot69]

Warlord, if it is "pittly-ass stuff," why the full court press from management on the issue? As many times as a union has been brought to the surface here, and failed miserably might I add, then why don't management put out a message stating that the pilot group should put this to a vote? This way, the vote is taken, and one way or another we move forward as a group?

I fail to see where attacking peoples opinions and views does anything to help Flexjet. FR and I am sure DG, as well as any other high ranking management personnel, has their contract in hand. Why is it so bad that there are pilots that want their own?

For those attacking LR45DRVR, give it a rest. He, just like you, has every right to express his concerns regarding unionizing. While he may have been wrong in the personal attacks, so were you.

I think we all can agree that the FOFG is nothing but a turd in a different wrapper, but some of those guys are trying. Will it do any good? Probably not. Since the CP states that Flexjet will manage how they see fit regardless of what others say, that pretty much sums up where the FOFG can go with our concerns.

The worst thing the pro union guys/gals can do is put out comments that have no proof or backing what so ever. Stick to the facts and discuss the facts, but do it as the professionals we all are.

To the guys/gals in charge of the IBT site. Fix the dang enrollment process. I talk to guys/gals everyday who are pissed that they cannot access the site. You want discussions fix that. If this is how you want to be seen by our group as to how we will be represented, you are failing miserably. You have the best chance in years to pull this off, but lack of abilities to access that site makes you look highly unorganized and inefficient.

Now where is that tequila?

 

[notapilot]

"Notapilot..You want to pay an ADDITIONAL 25-3500/yr for “job insurance” go ahead. You might want to ask the TWA pilots absorbed by AA how that insurance worked for them or the 500+ at NJ." - WL

Since you mentioned the 500+ at NJ, don't forget to mention those furloughed with no recall rights at Flexjet.

"Leaving one flying job for another usually puts you on the bottom of the list at the next company...how is a union going to change that?" - WL

I don't remember anyone talking about what a union would do for those who willingly leaving Flexjet seeking new employment.

"Bombardier has enough protection for me, but apparently not for you." - WL

Whatever works for you. You're right, not me especially after the recent news and the almost certain announcment come this fall.

 

[warlord19]

In a unionized workforce, who do you think comes first???the “customers” or the union?If you don't know the answer, look at the teacher's unions in Ohio, Wisconsin, and Mass..if your answer is the “students” you would be marked wrong. All unions travel this same path, the membership begins to think they are an entitled class and acts accordingly, and eventually the real world interveens. I would love to have an in-house union modelled on SWA, but I'm not about to vote to go down the IBT path and all the BS that goes along with it.
FalconPilot, most of the stuff I hear AND experience is “piddly-assed” once the chaff is seperated from the BS...the other stuff is rare but could be handled with a non-dues paying, in-house union. I'm not attacking people's opinions(well, maybe a little), just expressing my own, which you interpret as attacking people's opinion(I guess). Do you think calling the FOFG a turd enlightens anyone?? is that helping your cause?? I fly the CL30 with both pro and anti union folks and treat both with equal respect...I plan on doing so after this election. Best to ALL at Flexjet.
WL

 

[dashtrasher]

Hey warlord the initials JC ring a bell??

 

[FalconPilot69]

FalconPilot, most of the stuff I hear AND experience is “piddly-assed” once the chaff is seperated from the BS...the other stuff is rare but could be handled with a non-dues paying, in-house union.

I agree with the in-house union. I would prefer that as well just like SWA has. But, that cost money which we currently do not have hence the need for IBT support.



Do you think calling the FOFG a turd enlightens anyone?? is that helping your cause?? .
WL

You are right. While my intent does not come across in print, I see your point. That was my mistake.


Wow, a discussion and no name calling. Quick call Ripley's.

 

[Grizz]

Oh, lets start with the GRIZ...dude, you need to look up the definition of strawman.

"A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position"

You represented that brining in a union would prevent FlexJet from firing people for just cause. I disproved your strawman argument. Unions don't prevent terminations when the just cause provisions have been met.

Next issue troll?

 

[G4dude]

In a unionized workforce, who do you think comes first???the “customers” or the union?If you don't know the answer, look at the teacher's unions in Ohio, Wisconsin, and Mass..if your answer is the “students” you would be marked wrong. All unions travel this same path, the membership begins to think they are an entitled class and acts accordingly, and eventually the real world interveens. I would love to have an in-house union modelled on SWA, but I'm not about to vote to go down the IBT path and all the BS that goes along with it.
FalconPilot, most of the stuff I hear AND experience is “piddly-assed” once the chaff is seperated from the BS...the other stuff is rare but could be handled with a non-dues paying, in-house union. I'm not attacking people's opinions(well, maybe a little), just expressing my own, which you interpret as attacking people's opinion(I guess). Do you think calling the FOFG a turd enlightens anyone?? is that helping your cause?? I fly the CL30 with both pro and anti union folks and treat both with equal respect...I plan on doing so after this election. Best to ALL at Flexjet.
WL

Amen.