UAX Letter to UAL Pilots over jumpseat dispute.

[Formula 1]

Let it be known:

Whereas: I know the guy personally

Whereas: He is a SKYW pilot

Whereas: He co-wrote it..........as did the JSC from the aforementioned airlines (team effort)

Whereas: Putting his name out here does nothing. UAL's MEC knows who he, and the others are.

Whereas: You're talkin outta your ass

I am talking out my ass? Why don't you read the RLA and make the determination that this "Let it be known" phantom of the night cannot sign your pilot group to this silly letter.

If this is true than his time at SkyWest is limited. He'll be terminated or he will be forced to leave within the next year.

My question to you is this, What right does this single individual have to sign for the collective when he has no authority of the union given in the RLA. SAPA by definition is a employee relations group and is not covered by the RLA and has no legal protections and authority to represent the pilots of SkyWest. If anything, SkyWest pilots who get terminated because they fail to get to work because of this letter have grounds to sue this one individual. In fact SkyWest has grounds to terminate this individual for claiming he represents the SkyWest pilot group. All you guys are doing is hurting your pilot group.

Best of luck.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree it's nice to see regional carriers bind together for a purpose, but I'm afraid the ultimatum in this letter will serve to drive a further wedge between major and regional pilots. Lets hope that's not the case.

The mainline MECs along with ALPA and APA created the wedge.....They also have the ability to remove the wedge or drive it deeper....Interesting that it took an independant group to do what ALPA couldn't do....Bring multiple carriers together for a common purpose...I'm impressed.....ALPA could learn a lot from the UAX pilot group....

 

[ArcticFlier]

I am talking out my ass? Why don't you read the RLA and make the determination that this "Let it be known" phantom of the night cannot sign your pilot group to this silly letter.

If this is true than his time at SkyWest is limited. He'll be terminated or he will be forced to leave within the next year.

My question to you is this, What right does this single individual have to sign for the collective when he has no authority of the union given in the RLA. SAPA by definition is a employee relations group and is not covered by the RLA and has no legal protections and authority to represent the pilots of SkyWest. If anything, SkyWest pilots who get terminated because they fail to get to work because of this letter have grounds to sue this one individual. In fact SkyWest has grounds to terminate this individual for claiming he represents the SkyWest pilot group. All you guys are doing is hurting your pilot group.

Best of luck.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[SaturnPilot]

The mainline MECs along with ALPA and APA created the wedge.....They also have the ability to remove the wedge or drive it deeper....Interesting that it took an independant group to do what ALPA couldn't do....Bring multiple carriers together for a common purpose...I'm impressed.....ALPA could learn a lot from the UAX pilot group....

we can either place blame on who we think is responsible for the industry's problems, or we can try to fix them. Issuing ultimatums to pilots is adding to our problems instead of adding to the solution.

 

[JoeMerchant]

we can either place blame on who we think is responsible for the industry's problems, or we can try to fix them. Issuing ultimatums to pilots is adding to our problems instead of adding to the solution.

1. We can't fix anything until the behavior is changed....It isn't regional pilots who don't think of the mainline pilots as "objects"....It is mainline pilots who think regional pilots are "objects" to use as negotiating chips...Nothing will change until that attitude changes....

2. If the mainline won't change a simple code in the computer that was already changed for THEIR benefit, they won't change anything meaningful....This issue speaks volumes of the attitude we are facing...Quit coming up with excuses and make the change....Do what is right for once!

 

[SaturnPilot]

1. We can't fix anything until the behavior is changed....It isn't regional pilots who don't think of the mainline pilots as "objects"....It is mainline pilots who think regional pilots are "objects" to use as negotiating chips...Nothing will change until that attitude changes....

so, every major pilot sees regional pilots as "objects", huh?

I will submit that your attitude is just as much of the problem as the attitudes of SOME major pilots who think regional pilots are beneath them. You bring no solutions to this conflict.

2. If the mainline won't change a simple code in the computer that was already changed for THEIR benefit, they won't change anything meaningful....This issue speaks volumes of the attitude we are facing...Quit coming up with excuses and make the change....Do what is right for once!

I'll get right on that since my name is really Steve W. and I'm the chairman of the UAL MEC posing as someone with a CL-65 type.

 

[JoeMerchant]

so, every major pilot sees regional pilots as "objects", huh?

Absolutely not....Just the ones in positions of power within ALPA....The decision makers......

I will submit that your attitude is just as much of the problem as the attitudes of SOME major pilots who think regional pilots are beneath them. You bring no solutions to this conflict.

My attitude has been formed after 14 years of participating in ALPA and over many trips to Herndon....this issue confims my beliefs...

I'll get right on that since my name is really Steve W. and I'm the chairman of the UAL MEC posing as someone with a CL-65 type.

No, but you are defending him and his actions because you are an ALPA cheerleader....

 

[SaturnPilot]

Absolutely not....Just the ones in positions of power within ALPA....The decision makers......

another broad generalization based on no fact what-so-ever.

My attitude has been formed after 14 years of participating in ALPA and over many trips to Herndon....this issue confims my beliefs...

ALPA leadership turns over at a rapid rate. I'm sorry you were unhappy with your ALPA collegues attitudes while you worked in ALPA, but I'm guessing if you approached those people with any hint of the attitude you have now then that's probably why you were unsuccessful.

No, but you are defending him and his actions because you are an ALPA cheerleader....

Hey Decertification Fairy, go ahead and show me just ONE of my posts where I defend the UAL MEC Chairman. Your only argument with me ever is to call me an ALPA Cheerleader in your pathetic attempt to convince ignorant readers that I support ALPA no matter what. The reality is that I make decisions based on what I think is best for my job and the industry. If you can come up with a solution to the problems within ALPA, I'd be all ears and happy to support it. So far you have not come even close to that as your only suggestions are ideas you have spent less than 30 seconds researching the feasibility of, such as your independent ASA union that is financially next to impossible.

 

[flyboyike]

So far you have not come even close to that as your only suggestions are ideas you have spent less than 30 seconds researching the feasibility of, such as your independent ASA union that is financially next to impossible.

As impossible as, say, USAPA?

 

[Caspian27]

we can either place blame on who we think is responsible for the industry's problems, or we can try to fix them. Issuing ultimatums to pilots is adding to our problems instead of adding to the solution.

Well, what other impetus or motivation is there for UAL to change it's computer boarding priority at this point? This has been going on for 2 years. They've apparently tried every other avenue and it didn't work. They tried to work together to fix them like you suggest, but that was unsuccessful.

When everything else fails, and the priority is still not right, what else can you do? I like this as little as everyone else...but it is super-frustrating trying to commute on UAX due primarily to this issue.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

When everything else fails, and the priority is still not right, what else can you do? I like this as little as everyone else...but it is super-frustrating trying to commute on UAX due primarily to this issue.

How about a grassroots movement?

www.uaxjumpseatpriority.net



The ALPA BOD is coming up this Fall... why not use some political movement there...

The first I've heard of this is on FI via the "letter". Why was there no threads just explaining the situation so everyone can understand the issues?

And now the letter was written by a OO pilot who will remain nameless? What is the UAL MEC supposed to do.. go to management with a moniker letter and say "some one wrote this... can you make changes?". It doesn't work this way....

Most people are willing to help others out under the guise of respect and trust. Building positive relationships does more to get things done than "letters".

Does it take time? Sure does. But actively choosing to get off the high road and go for the low road isn't going to work.... well... let's see.... what July 31?

Who responds to threats in a positive way even if the core message is valid?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

How about a grassroots movement?

www.uaxjumpseatpriority.net



The ALPA BOD is coming up this Fall... why not use some political movement there...

The first I've heard of this is on FI via the "letter". Why was there no threads just explaining the situation so everyone can understand the issues?

And now the letter was written by a OO pilot who will remain nameless? What is the UAL MEC supposed to do.. go to management with a moniker letter and say "some one wrote this... can you make changes?". It doesn't work this way....

Most people are willing to help others out under the guise of respect and trust. Building positive relationships does more to get things done than "letters".

Does it take time? Sure does. But actively choosing to get off the high road and go for the low road isn't going to work.... well... let's see.... what July 31?

Who responds to threats in a positive way even if the core message is valid?

Do you understand this has been an ongoing issue for 2 years??? How much more time do you think it should take to make a simple fix that should never have been an issue to begin with?

 

[trachyte11]

then get off your lazy ass and go out and be known to the gate agent, ensure the right guy gets the seat. I did it when I was at express. Besides aren't they express gate agents working your flights? and shouldn't they know the priority on express flights?

Its unrealistic to expect us to supervise the boarding process. UAX guys have been getting bumped off of their own company jumpseat.

Express gate agents don't always work UAX flights. Many times, they are mainline agents. Even if they are express agents, they just go by the priority that the computer tells them. They don't know what our FOM says for jumpseat policy.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Do you understand this has been an ongoing issue for 2 years??? How much more time do you think it should take to make a simple fix that should never have been an issue to begin with?

You're missing the point... you quoted my post but did you read it?

This is the first I've known about it..... if you want to get mass understanding and empathy then get the word it out.... The more pilots that know about it, and its a just cause the more support you'll get...

However, the first time many are made aware it is done with a threat.... who responds to threats?


Again... the big question.. is.... who is obligated to fix the computer code? And where is that obligation written?

I am still curious as to how the UAL pilots and/or MEC is a part of this.... Did they agree or commit to fixing this?

 

[trachyte11]

Well, seeing how UAL changed priority codes for UAX pilots this spring, I find it difficult to believe that they can't get it changed again. The simple reason it has not been changed yet, is that there has been nothing for United to gain by it. (The knowledge that you are doing the right thing by honoring your agreement doesn't count) The UAX jumpseat folks have been trying to fix this for two years. They have met nothing but resistance from UALPA. The UAX folks are now appealing to the UAL pilots to put pressure on the MEC to right this wrong. The pressure may seem heavy handed, but two years of one sided negotiations are enough. No one wants to deny anyone a ride. The UAX guys simply want the existing agreements to be honored. It is unfortunate that we have arrived at this. Please United pilots, contact your MEC to get this taken care of.

Right on....what he said.

 

[trachyte11]

Again... the big question.. is.... who is obligated to fix the computer code? And where is that obligation written?

I am still curious as to how the UAL pilots and/or MEC is a part of this.... Did they agree or commit to fixing this?

Do some research. UAL MEC is exactly who is responsible for the priority in the current software. UAL MEC asked their management to implement the current priority. Most UAL pilots don't expect to have priority on UAX airplanes. However, there are a few on the UAL MEC who think otherwise.

The software was changed. UAX has asked/negotiated to have it changed back. The response for some time now has been that it is not financially beneficial to UAL. So, they see no reason to change it. UAX jumpseat committee (not just skywest) has decided to give them a reason.

 

[Caspian27]

How about a grassroots movement?

www.uaxjumpseatpriority.net



The ALPA BOD is coming up this Fall... why not use some political movement there...

The first I've heard of this is on FI via the "letter". Why was there no threads just explaining the situation so everyone can understand the issues?

And now the letter was written by a OO pilot who will remain nameless? What is the UAL MEC supposed to do.. go to management with a moniker letter and say "some one wrote this... can you make changes?". It doesn't work this way....

Most people are willing to help others out under the guise of respect and trust. Building positive relationships does more to get things done than "letters".

Does it take time? Sure does. But actively choosing to get off the high road and go for the low road isn't going to work.... well... let's see.... what July 31?

Who responds to threats in a positive way even if the core message is valid?

Rez,

My understanding is the letter was written by the JSC's of all the carriers who signed the letter (every UAX except TSA).

As far as relationships and time like you mentioned, again my understanding is they've (UAX JSC's & UA) have been working on this for about 2 years. So the relationship was there...the time spent trying to solve the issue without "threats" as you say, was there.

My understanding is, those things didn't work...then in May, apparently UALPA (again totally 3rd party info since I'm not a rep) requested a change in the computer priorities. (The change is a fact. According to the computer, UA has priority on ALL flights mainline or express, followed by TSA & GoJet. Whether UALPA was the driving force behind this is again, 3rd party party info, but they benifted from the change...)

In any case, it seems like the JS reps have worked long & hard together and gotten nowhere dealing with UA or UALPA on this. They've already used your suggestions, what else is left?

I'd just like to retain priority on my own birds...that's it. I hold no animosity towards any pilot group.

In addition, I think I'm going to put my name in to be a rep...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

So the UAL MEC is sticking it to the UAX pilots? Why?

 

[Gr82Aviate]

So the UAL MEC is sticking it to the UAX pilots? Why?

Why don't you ask them?

 

[JoeMerchant]

So the UAL MEC is sticking it to the UAX pilots? Why?

Because mainline pilots believe they own the regionals...You're a United pilot...at least for a little while...why don't you tell us why the UAL MEC believes they should have priority....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why don't you ask them?

Actually the intent was to see if the UAX guys knew why...

It is apparent that there is plenty of misunderstanding on both sides.....

It seems that this letter has exacerbated the situation not improved it....

Cooler heads?

 

[JoeMerchant]

Actually the intent was to see if the UAX guys knew why...

It is apparent that there is plenty of misunderstanding on both sides.....

It seems that this letter has exacerbated the situation not improved it....

Cooler heads?

You're a United pilot Rez....Explain the reason for us....We're all ears....

 

[PCL_128]

You're a United pilot Rez....Explain the reason for us....We're all ears....

I don't think Rez has ever said where he works. Maybe you're making ass-umptions?

 

[JoeMerchant]

I don't think Rez has ever said where he works. Maybe you're making ass-umptions?

He's at United now....

 

[PCL_128]

He's at United now....

Like I said. Ass-umptions.

 

[SaturnPilot]

As impossible as, say, USAPA?

An independent major union and an independent regional union are two very different things financially. The regionals do not collect enough dues money to function normally and are actually subsidized by the majors. An airline the size of Skywest and ASA would take in roughly a quarter million dollars a year. One year of contract negotiations alone costs upwards of a half million...add in the rest of the costs of running a union on top of that.

 

[JoeMerchant]

An independent major union and an independent regional union are two very different things financially. The regionals do not collect enough dues money to function normally and are actually subsidized by the majors. An airline the size of Skywest and ASA would take in roughly a quarter million dollars a year. One year of contract negotiations alone costs upwards of a half million...add in the rest of the costs of running a union on top of that.

What if multiple regional airlines were to join? ALPA is going to lose a lot of members over the next year and will probably have to raise dues to cover the losses.....

How did you come up with your numbers....I came up with roughly 3.2 million dollars that ASA/Skyw would come up with in dues....Obviously we are both estimating, but they are far off....

 

[SaturnPilot]

Well, what other impetus or motivation is there for UAL to change it's computer boarding priority at this point? This has been going on for 2 years. They've apparently tried every other avenue and it didn't work. They tried to work together to fix them like you suggest, but that was unsuccessful.

When everything else fails, and the priority is still not right, what else can you do? I like this as little as everyone else...but it is super-frustrating trying to commute on UAX due primarily to this issue.

If this is the case, then I agree something else needs to be done. The issue obviously needs to be fixed. My only point is that the letter is most likely not going to be as successful because it is given as an ultimatum. If the intention of this letter was to simply educate the UAL pilots about the dispute in order to bring resolution, it probably would have worked well had it not included the "or else"...just my opinion.

I hope cooler heads at the top prevail and are able to resolve this problem quickly, because the only people to suffer are going to be the commuters.

 

[Speedtape]

Easy with your Rosa Parks civil disobedience talk.... Are you willing to NOT "ride the bus" as the black community did. What does that mean? Refusing to fly? You gonna do a sick out to get the jumpseat?

Hancock, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin, et all, knew they commiting treason to the British Crown, and if unsuccessful they'd hang.


So... what are you really saying?

What I'm really saying is:

Rosa Parks stood up to the establishment or status quo and took a seat where she was not allowed to sit, instead of cowering and sitting where she was expected to sit. Left with no options, the UAX pilots are challenging the establishment or status quo (UALPA and UAL) with the letter and subsequent action if not resolved, instead of saying nothing and taking no action as they are expected to do. The later action, the boycotting of the bus is similar to the UAX pilots denying the jumpseat, should the problem not be resolved by the stated deadline. Both of these actions are similar in that both actions are an attempt to right the wrong!

Hancock, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin and others, took a stand for something that they believed to be right and just. The pilot leadership of Skywest, Mesa, and the other pilot groups who signed the petition, are taking a stand for something they believe to be right and just, and are taking action to try and correct the wrong.

Rez,
If you took a job at UAL, you have bigger things to worry about than UAX pilots requesting the application of a fair and just, reciprocal jumpseat agreement. That's what I really mean! Good Luck!

 

[SaturnPilot]

What if multiple regional airlines were to join? ALPA is going to lose a lot of members over the next year and will probably have to raise dues to cover the losses.....

I guess you'd have to exclude regionals like CommutAir, Colgan, GoJet:laugh:, PSA, Great Lakes, etc as they are too small and would greatly drain your finances. If multiple regionals joined a regional union then you'd have a bunch of airlines, that previously had to be subsidized by major airlines, on their own.

How did you come up with your numbers....I came up with roughly 3.2 million dollars that ASA/Skyw would come up with in dues....Obviously we are both estimating, but they are far off....

Yearly MEC account income for a regional airline slightly smaller than ASA.