TSA SAT Flying given to G-Jets

[temcgrew]

UEJ500-

Hate to take a stab at ya big guy, but block or better is for meatheads. In my 7 years I've had 4 mo's that I flown over block, and all four of those months where in LGA. I'd take 3-4 bucks more an hour any day, rather that over block protection. Just my 2-cents..

Cheers..

That would be all well and good except that the g0jet payscale is only 1.50 more per hour than the TSA 145 rate. Delays in and out of ORD can add up alot more than that crappy rate for 20 more seats.

Again, TSH found a way to get pilots to work for free. They have also convinced the pilot group that we at TSA deserve getting furloughed and cuts in pay. The company makes it sound like they begged us 5 times to do the flying and we said no. This is not the case. We voted one time and thought we could negotiate after that.

 

[Turbosnake03]

We voted one time and thought we could negotiate after that.

Not trying to be a prick but, why not vote yes and try to negotiate after you had the flying and have more control over the situation??? i guess it is a mute point, hindsight is 20/20.

 

[temcgrew]

Not trying to be a prick but, why not vote yes and try to negotiate after you had the flying and have more control over the situation??? i guess it is a mute point, hindsight is 20/20.

The TSA MEC was not only "fighting" with the company but also started attacking ALPA NATIONAL. National wanted the contract voted in because of the "holding company" language. They knew it wasn't the best contract and they also had a hunch that the company would slam the door on us if it was voted down.
If I could pull up all of the past post's on the subject you would see a pattern of manipulation by the MEC and how they bashed anyone with an opposing position.

The voice of reason was drowned out by the bitter anger and name calling by our MEC. The reaction of these guys was like a 4 year old, who can't vocalize a rational thought and resort to name calling.

I voted YES and I encouraged many others to do the same, but the influence of the MEC was the reason so many fence sitters decided to vote NO at the last minute.

Now, wait until SHREK reads this and watch his reaction.

Read some of the past post by him, any blame on the MEC and they all go into defensive mode and bash anyone that has anything to say.

I would love to see our MEC chairman go away, and I believe after all thats happened he should step aside and let someone else lead the cause.
His attitude and personal feelings get in the way of effective communication and many pilots have been hurt because he had no VISION during this whole process nor would he listen to anyone who saw the writing on the wall.

The sad part is that because of the name calling and attacking of anyone that does not blindly support them, nobody will do anything about it. The more he damages TSA's future, the more people support him.

I am abiding my time here and aggressively trying to find other employment. I think it is just a matter of time before the company is cut in half.

 

[Turkey Shoot]

TSA booted AWAC out of ORD by bidding lower and TSA pilots happily flew those routes too. Where were your principles when it came to United 737 and A319 pilots or AWAC BAe-146 guys? Do you see how giving domestic flying to regionals has kept United pilots on furlough?

Now you come on here and speak with such self indignation about denying Go Jet pilots jumpseats and how much better you are than Go Jet. Look in the mirror, what routes are you flying today that were flown by United or AWAC? Has a United or AWAC pilot ever denied a TSA guy a jumpseat? Probably not. Its time you mature and cut the vendetta stuff and realize the nature of the industry you are in.

Get a clue you useless tool bag. TSA management bid it and Whisky lost the flying, just as Whisky gained US Air stuff while TSA lost it. TSA pilots did not hire on to skirt the system nor was it being created to ruin Whisky guy's and their upgrades. Tyr comparing apples to oranges instead of two entirely different scenarios. Or you do not want to because you'll be seen for scumbag you are?

Indignation? Hardly. The routes being flown by regionals today were given up by some mainline guys who didn't want to be troubled by the 50-70 seat stuff. Not all the pilots, but that was the what scope allowed when the money was still good and there were no worries.

I realize very well the nature of the business I am in. I also know that it's the types like yourself that allow these companies to continue to pay the crap they do and whipsaw back and forth. I may not be a CA but if a GJ guy attempts to commute on a plane I am crewing I will plead my case to the guy in the left seat. If he over rules it, it's dropped but if he kicks their sorry, enabling butts off; I'll have a warm fuzzy from it.

I defer to the company first, they sign my paycheck. So I am by no means a union die hard but if I ever find myself in the position to not allow a GJ in my place of work, you had better believe I will make every effort to keep you out.

 

[Turkey Shoot]

Not trying to be a prick but, why not vote yes and try to negotiate after you had the flying and have more control over the situation??? i guess it is a mute point, hindsight is 20/20.

Asnswer this honestly and you'll get your answer.

Hulas started another company and began hiring street captains, who knew good and well where hurting your chance at upgrade to get the hell out of the region business, who had furlough protection over you even though you'd been there for several more years.

What would you think?

I was very much for a yes vote and was disappointed to see a no vote. I am of the thought to capture the flying first, fight for QOL and pay later. I mostly wanted it to have the chance to fly with you tools to say, "SOP callouts only."

 

[AirCobra]

"Indignation? Hardly. The routes being flown by regionals today were given up by some mainline guys who didn't want to be troubled by the 50-70 seat stuff. Not all the pilots, but that was the what scope allowed when the money was still good and there were no worries."

Turkey Shoot
You know this is not true. Mainline United took two 737's off ORD to IAD and replaced the with three RJ flights (nearly equal number of seats, lower paid pilots). United also did something similar in COS. You are also trying to tell me the AWAC flying for USAir is anywhere near the amount it did for United at ORD for the last 19 years. TSA, Mesa, and Skywset came in and underbid AWAC just like Go Jet is underbidding TSA. You were willing to fly United Mainline routes for less than half the pay a United FO makes. Well no wonder you fly ORD to IAD or ORD to DFW instead of places like Evansville and Champaign like in the old days. It is also why 43% of the United domestic flights out of ORD are UAX. Your company underbid mainline pilots, then you fly around in United colors, using United's reservation system to fill your planes, using United ground crews, and try to say that somehow you are better than Go Jet. You did something even dumber, if your goal is to work for a high paying major airline, well you just reduced your chances of ever doing that because United can get you to fly the same routes for $20.00 an hour.

I understand that that is the law of the jungle and I accept it, and I have never blamed a regional airline pilot for taking jobs away from anyone. Nor would I ever deny a jumpseat to TSA, Mesa, or Skywest. I just can't stand the hypocrisy of the guys on here claiming they are better than Go Jet and making excuses like United pilots didn't want to fly 50 seat aircraft and that everything was just wonderful when you booted AWAC out of ORD. Give me a break!!!

 

[AirCobra]

I guess most of you Go Jet bashers are too young or have never been furloughed so let me explain some stuff to you. I have personally met two Go Jet pilots, one was a former Air Force veteran senior aviatior who had flown in the Gulf War and the other was a pilot furlouged from a major airline. Well if you or your 25 year old Captain feel good about denying a jumpseat to an Air Force combat veteran under some dubios labor dispute you cooked up, show some respect. Let's talk about the furloughed guy. When ALPA represented pilots are furloughed they go to non ALPA or non union airlines so they don't have to give up their seniority. Well that Go Jet guy you just booted may work for American, Delta, or United or he may be working for Go Jet until he can get on with Jet Blue or Fed Ex. You think he won't remember your harsh words or gestures. Maybe three years down the road you may be at that Captains board interview for Jet Blue and low and behold who is sitting across the table but the guy you booted. I know when your young its easy to act rashly and be impulsive but age will show you at times when you thought you were totally right you were totally wrong.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Indignation? Hardly. The routes being flown by regionals today were given up by some mainline guys who didn't want to be troubled by the 50-70 seat stuff. Not all the pilots, but that was the what scope allowed when the money was still good and there were no worries.

A common theme among regional pilots, twisted slightly.

True that mainline "gave up" the jets, but only because they were forced to in BK procedings. Up until 2001-02 mainline managed to keep the rj from replacing the mainline airplanes through contract language, hull number caps, and route restrictions. During BK the airlines gutted all that and the pilots had zero recourse or way to stop the wholesale furlough and gutting of their routes. At my airline the only restriction left was the number of seats in the rj..nothing left to control the # of RJ's.(That is the real killer part to our careers, all thanks to the BK rules)

Like it or not, the majority of rj pilots hired after 2001 got their job simply because of the 8000+ mainline pilots furloughed and the hundreds of mainline dc-9's, 737's, and such that were parked in favor of "cheap" labor (1000 hour kids in an rj) There has been no growth, the 2001 thru current rj jobs are not new, just transfers from the mainline.......a lot like the current G-jet mess.

 

[Shrek]

We would not sacrifice our already outdated contract and have yet another extention (with concessions) just to get 70 seat planes. We would of had THE WORST contract in the business.

We tried to reverse the trend but unfortunately there were eager pilots willing to bypass our seniority list and be part of the whipsaw. They seem giddy at the fact that TSA pilots are on the street.......and will probably have a "holdings appreciation Day BBQ" when the last TSA flight is flown.......

It breaks my heart to see it when a fellow pilot is the one puttin the knife in your back.

 

[Skippy]

ue500,

1. The mec presented the g0jet LOA roadshows with a neutral endorsement. I was there, along with some mgmt sent pilots. There is noone that can say the MEC didnt provide answers to questions and provide a neutral endorsement. The facts were presented. Many "what if" scenarios were explained. What was interesting is, it's hard to sell something that when pilots ask questions, they dont like the answers.

 

[PCL_128]

"You know this is not true. Mainline United took two 737's off ORD to IAD and replaced the with three RJ flights (nearly equal number of seats, lower paid pilots). United also did something similar in COS. You are also trying to tell me the AWAC flying for USAir is anywhere near the amount it did for United at ORD for the last 19 years. TSA, Mesa, and Skywset came in and underbid AWAC just like Go Jet is underbidding TSA. You were willing to fly United Mainline routes for less than half the pay a United FO makes. Well no wonder you fly ORD to IAD or ORD to DFW instead of places like Evansville and Champaign like in the old days. It is also why 43% of the United domestic flights out of ORD are UAX. Your company underbid mainline pilots, then you fly around in United colors, using United's reservation system to fill your planes, using United ground crews, and try to say that somehow you are better than Go Jet. You did something even dumber, if your goal is to work for a high paying major airline, well you just reduced your chances of ever doing that because United can get you to fly the same routes for $20.00 an hour.

Sorry, but that dog won't hunt. Those UAL 737s were replaced with AWAC RJs because you voted away your scope language willingly. You have no one to blame but yourself for losing that flying. Not so with the TSA/HoJet situation. Their scope language is intact, and the intent is clear: all flying is to be done by the TSA pilots.

You gave your flying away. The TSA pilots had it stolen from them. Big difference.

 

[Turbosnake03]

You gave your flying away. The TSA pilots had it stolen from them. Big difference.

How did they steal the flying???

TSA VOTED NO!!!!!!! THAT MEANS THEY DIDN'T WANT IT!!!!!!!!!! How the hell do you steal something from someone that dosen't even want it??????

 

[Turkey Shoot]

How do figure United did it to their pilots. Ever heard of scope? Pilots get to vote on that sort of thing or is that a new addition to contracts?

You GJ apologists slay me. Always looking to excuse what they've done. You continue to compare two entirely different facets of the trade. It's one deal for a copany to underbid another, fact of life. But when the company you work for creates another to hose you, not quite the same. You continue to make this comparison and you need to find another excuse because I'll continue to tell everybody about what you've done. I am sure back in the day, you were probably trashing Freedom guys. You're no better.

They are crooked management enablers and I can not wait for the day they get theirs from HK.

And I do not work for Trans States.

 

[PCL_128]

How did they steal the flying???

TSA VOTED NO!!!!!!! THAT MEANS THEY DIDN'T WANT IT!!!!!!!!!! How the hell do you steal something from someone that dosen't even want it??????

They didn't need to vote for it, because it was already theirs.

From the TSA CBA, Section 1.B.1: (emphasis is mine)

All flying in and for the scheduled revenue passenger service of the Company and any wet lease or charter flying presently performed or to be performed in the future by the Company, shall be performed by active Pilots on the Trans States Airlines Pilots' Seniority List and shall be flown in accordance with all of the provisions of the Employment agreement and applicable amendments thereto between the Company and the Pilots as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (AFL‑CIO).

 

[Turkey Shoot]

How did they steal the flying???

TSA VOTED NO!!!!!!! THAT MEANS THEY DIDN'T WANT IT!!!!!!!!!! How the hell do you steal something from someone that dosen't even want it??????

You're a scum bag. get over it. TSA pilots wanted that flying. They did not want you yellow bellied weasels to have furlough protection. They got to vote ONCE!!

I look foward to running into you guys out there now(easy to spot with their heads down and ID turned backwards). Nothing to fear from a casual insult tossed your way now. Sure, I'll even cut in line on you at McDonalds.

 

[flyer172r]

We tried to reverse the trend but unfortunately there were eager pilots willing to bypass our seniority list and be part of the whipsaw. They seem giddy at the fact that TSA pilots are on the street.......and will probably have a "holdings appreciation Day BBQ" when the last TSA flight is flown.......

And the GJ pilots will probably gladly pay the 20 bucks the company will charge to go to that BBQ.

 

[Turkey Shoot]

Intership not going to well shooter... I was just in ORD the other day and ran into GO-JET crew getting something to eat. I could see there ID just fine. They even had the balls to say hello.

Hey, I've got an Idea, grow a sack of potatoes and say something.. Man the fu...k up son.... You sure talk a big game.. PM if you'd like to get a coffee sometime to discuss this further.

Cheers,

I've been through ORD too many times as wel as in the crewrrom where those guys are allowed. Not too much from them and they don't look nearly as proud as they do in the training center.

interNship? I'm probably older than you are. I earned my way to crappy way. I'll man the "F" up. I can shoot the sh1t with you anytime so long as schedules match. Sorta a b1tch to call in sick for no reason. PM sent, boy.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Delete -supposed to be a separate thread.

 

[JoeMerchant]

We would not sacrifice our already outdated contract and have yet another extention (with concessions) just to get 70 seat planes. We would of had THE WORST contract in the business.

We tried to reverse the trend but unfortunately there were eager pilots willing to bypass our seniority list and be part of the whipsaw. They seem giddy at the fact that TSA pilots are on the street.......and will probably have a "holdings appreciation Day BBQ" when the last TSA flight is flown.......

It breaks my heart to see it when a fellow pilot is the one puttin the knife in your back.

Shrek, you are living in a dream world if you don't think there are people who are willing to replace each of us. Maybe if we had a true national union, we could do something. However we don't. Do whatever you need to forge a single list with G0Jets. The short term pain will be worth it in the long run.

 

[Skippy]

Some things TSA pilots didnt like about the UAL LOA:

1. rates on 70 as well as 90 seaters
2. loophole language
3. g0jet furlough protection
4. 4 year duration of contract extension
5. no increase in per diem
6. 1.5% COLA bumps
7. smoke and mirrors opportunity for fo positions. What pilot group would want the proposed, concessionary LOA for at most 100 fo pilot slots? And if they did how is that being responsible to the MAJORITY of the pilot group-- and please dont use the ,'at least you have a job" BS routine.
8. Already preexisting vague contractual language.
9. scope language was decent but could be maneuvered around somehow.
10. A crappy grievance process which TSA exploits every chance they get
11. 1% matching 401K
12. schitty insurance rates
13. after about 3 or 4 do you really need a 13?

So you see, 75% said "NO". I'm just glad that it was voted down because it just goes to show that the majority saw thru the BS of -- oh we'll get 40 planes but only reap the benefits of 100 fo positions? Mgmt knew if it was voted on it would fail-- Hence the attempt to undermine the union and have the MEC chairman ratify it without a pilot vote for only a measly 3 years. AHHH, I can hear it now--- all the people who voted "YES" would call our MEC chair an idiot for signing it in without a vote and blaming him for what would've been..

You see, the company plays devil's advocate and spins it whichever way they want.



God dang, quit beating a dead horse. It's over, we're seperate companies. Move on-- enjoy the growth at our expense and shut the f************************* up. We weren't willing to sacrifice- you were-- because someone always is

 

[TSA ERJ]

All the TSA pilots ever asked of management was to follow the contract. It allows the immediate introduction of a new aircraft type with pay rates that are the average of the non-wholly owned carriers. Hardly pricing ourselves out of the market. But they have shown they are incapable of following any agreement. Why would they need to when they can always get guys like those who joined GJ to help them out.

 

[Golden Falcon]

Well it's come 'round in one big circle...mainline guys bagged commuter guys for years...so no suprise when commuter guys crossed their picket lines and took their flying...then commuters evolved to jet-regionals..and now even lower tier jet-commuters are taking flying away from the regionals...pilot unity or lack of it has always been the bane of aviation in the USA...the minute GO-jet was formed, TSA pilots should have tried to organize them ,but instead you ostracised them and now of course you are paying the price for your own stupidity...enjoy it guys and gals..you made the bed...sleep in it

 

[joeywoofwoof]

And now the TSA guys are talking about how G0jet is bashing and lauging at all the furloughs?!?!? whatever- when TSA are the one's who have been trying to start a war with GJ every chance they get. I've never seen any ************************* pilot bash a TSA guy on this board- but, TSA is quick to kick GJ any chance they can get. My sympathy for TSA is thinning out quickly.....

 

[Turkey Shoot]

And now the TSA guys are talking about how G0jet is bashing and lauging at all the furloughs?!?!? whatever- when TSA are the one's who have been trying to start a war with GJ every chance they get. I've never seen any ************************* pilot bash a TSA guy on this board- but, TSA is quick to kick GJ any chance they can get. My sympathy for TSA is thinning out quickly.....

Never seen a GJ trash a TSA guy? Come on, better read a little more.

Sympathy wears thin because people have short attention spans, unless you're the one getting hosed. If you are a 121 operater, you should be shoulder to shoulder with those guys because when it happens to you, I am sure you'll be thankful for the support you'll get.

Tough to make nice with guys that knew by going to GJ, they could jump the whole seniority of their fellow pilots. Some of the guys that came over from furloughs elsewhere could be forgiven but the former TSA guys that went over deserve no consideration.

Had it been all new pilots going over there, I believe you would have seen a move to organize them from the TSA guys but when you have a backstabber that you flew with, drank beer with, and trashed the company during those long two hour ground delays at ORD, it sorta sticks in one's craw.

Sorry, I may no longer be there but I will never forget what's been done there. It has done nothing but make me more cynical about how low people will go.

 

[labbats]

I don't understand how anyone can defend G0Jets. Military veteran or not, that guy undercut someone else to get ahead. Sound familiar? It should, because that is the problem throughout aviation now.

Now to play devil's advocate, how can you take a job at TSA and not expect to get screwed?

 

[f/o(forever)]

Well it's come 'round in one big circle...mainline guys bagged commuter guys for years...so no suprise when commuter guys crossed their picket lines and took their flying...then commuters evolved to jet-regionals..and now even lower tier jet-commuters are taking flying away from the regionals...pilot unity or lack of it has always been the bane of aviation in the USA...the minute GO-jet was formed, TSA pilots should have tried to organize them ,but instead you ostracised them and now of course you are paying the price for your own stupidity...enjoy it guys and gals..you made the bed...sleep in it

Please educate your self before you speak!! The first four management pilots for gayjet tried illegally to vote in teamsters!! This was a ploy to keep alpa out. Ask yourself why?? Teamsters represent tsa's f/a's and they suck! tsah wants teamsters for gayjets! NOW THINK PEOPLE WHY DO TSAH MANAGERS WANT TEAMSTERS FOR THE UNION OF THE GAYJET PILOTS!!! BECAUSE THEY SUCK!!!!!! This will allow tsah to screw the gayjet pilots without consequence!! We at tsa stood our ground and will continue to stand together And I hope all alpa pilots will support this because I have supported them in the past. YES I MADE MY BED AND WILL CONTINUE TO SLEEP IN IT, BUT I KNOW THAT I HAVE DONE MY BEST FOR MY FELLOW PILOTS, AND I SLEEP WELL. I no longer respect teamsters and feel sorry for any one that is stuck being a teamster represented employee. The teamsters care for only themselves and could care less about other unions.

 

[temcgrew]

ue500,

1. The mec presented the g0jet LOA roadshows with a neutral endorsement. I was there, along with some mgmt sent pilots. There is noone that can say the MEC didnt provide answers to questions and provide a neutral endorsement. The facts were presented. Many "what if" scenarios were explained. What was interesting is, it's hard to sell something that when pilots ask questions, they dont like the answers.

I have to respectfully disagree. They SAID they were neutral. Every pilot that I talked to at the time were convinced that the MEC didn't want it and that is why they were voting NO.

Neutral or not, the influence of the MEC is what got the thing voted down.

 

[temcgrew]

Rally the troop over there and get something done, and start off by giving your MEC a swift kick in the bal!s, and re-assign him to the hotel commit. chairman, No wait, he'd probably melt that program down to.

Come on geTr done big bOY....

Cheers,

Nothing would thrill me more.

 

[Skippy]

UE500,

Also, think to yourself how MGMT went to pilots telling them how great this deal was--- the union couldnt do that-- we had to be neutral. Do you have some type of PUBLIC evidence that states elected union officials were telling pilots to vote it down? Remeber, what they do in private is there own business-- I wouldn't call that an agenda-- i call it freedom of thought/ speech/ and expression.

In private, what an individual thinks or says is his/her own opinion. We dont have own own agenda-- If we did we would've signed the 3 year deal!!!!! If it would've passed, so be it-- majority rules, right? This time the majority ruled. The MEC's sole responsibility is to do what's best for the MAJORITY, protect pilots' jobs, Keep people employed, help see that the company is stable and profitable and therby promote growth....... this item was a catch 22

In public, when the LOA was neutrally presented and the pilots' questions were answered and their concerns addressed. They were neutral. I dont know how to explain it any clearer. They were just the barers of a one sided proposal. Dont kill the messenger.

I believe the roadshow information is what killed the LOA. I can honestly say that we had probably at least 50 pilots in STL alone that were undecided until the went to the roashow, got the required information to make an educated decision. I can probably think of about 10 people in stl that actually changed their vote from "yes" to "no" after the roadshow because they werent aware of the interpretive language and the concessionary LOA. It was just my observation.


Just becuase the LOA failed doesnt mean the MEC did so intentionally, maybe it was some of the previous 12 items i mentioned earlier that made pilots vote it down.

I honestly didnt care one way or the other and i feel as though the other officials didnt either. We're here to represent the pilots, which is what we did and continue to do now. We didnt influence the vote one way or the other-- the outcome was determined before it was voted on.

 

[temcgrew]

The outcome was determined before it was voted on.

YIPPY SKIPPY, your right. How can you say that you could express a personal opinion to your fellow pilots and at the same time try to be neutral at the road shows? ANY personal opinion by any of the MEC is policy and this is what the pilot group FOLLOWED.

I was called all sorts of names when I expressed my opinion of what could happen if we voted NO. Actually, what I expressed to the pilot group is actually happening now. Furloughs at TSA and growth at g0jet. After all of this happened what does our great MEC chairman say? Not much except mumbling something about not having a crystal ball!!!

Come on now!! This is the leadership that led to this. He feels this is HIM againts the company, doesn't seem to realize that 600 other pilots are being hurt by his arrogance. It's time for him to go and we all know it. Before anyone else gets furloughed he should resign.

I'll take that contract any day now over the 70 or so pilots that have either been furloughed or had their pay cut. Rumors are more furloughs coming in August.

If you or any other person on the MEC didn't see that we needed to get that contract passed needs to resign as well. Explain to me why you all started bashing ALPA NATIONAL when they were begging us to vote in the contract?
You all turned on our union and pilot group and we are all suffering for it right now.