Tough Choice--SWA or UPS?

[JethroF15]

I am done with this thread...

Thanks!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Thanks!

JethroF15,,,shucks thats cool

From Iowa?

 

[Widow's Son]

SWA and UPS are both great companies. The lifestyles are very different but most can adapt to either.
The fact that someone mentioned about the boxes not complaining is exactly why the boxboys may find themselves lacking in leverage someday.
The people who pay the money to fuel the airline don't have any interaction with the airline side of UPS. They just want to have their boxes picked up and delivered. They have no clue what happens in the meantime and could care less. There are myriad ways to move those boxes. As long as in house pilots work into the business plan things will be fine. The moment in house pilots no longer make business sense, something else will happen. That is what happened on the pax side with RJ's and international code shares.
As far as the teamsters go, when they make a fourth or a fifth of what the pilots do watch what happens when management shows them they can double their pay by using Chinaman's air to keep the airline running if the pilots were to ever shut it down.
There are several entities working very hard right now to replace human pilots in airplanes. They envision ATC and Bill Gates doing what pilots do.
I know someone loosly affiliated with Boeing who is working on that very project and he claims that their target market is cargo simply because of the fact that the boxes don't complain and the shippers could care less.
Granted this is still years away, but a lot can happen during the average 30 year career of a pilot.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

SWA and UPS are both great companies. The lifestyles are very different but most can adapt to either.
The fact that someone mentioned about the boxes not complaining is exactly why the boxboys may find themselves lacking in leverage someday.
The people who pay the money to fuel the airline don't have any interaction with the airline side of UPS. They just want to have their boxes picked up and delivered. They have no clue what happens in the meantime and could care less. There are myriad ways to move those boxes. As long as in house pilots work into the business plan things will be fine. The moment in house pilots no longer make business sense, something else will happen. That is what happened on the pax side with RJ's and international code shares.
As far as the teamsters go, when they make a fourth or a fifth of what the pilots do watch what happens when management shows them they can double their pay by using Chinaman's air to keep the airline running if the pilots were to ever shut it down.
There are several entities working very hard right now to replace human pilots in airplanes. They envision ATC and Bill Gates doing what pilots do.
I know someone loosly affiliated with Boeing who is working on that very project and he claims that their target market is cargo simply because of the fact that the boxes don't complain and the shippers could care less.
Granted this is still years away, but a lot can happen during the average 30 year career of a pilot.

WOW remote control cargo,,totally make sense

 

[JethroF15]

I am done with this thread. MYYY mentors are going to work to see what is fact and what is fiction. T-Gates, from what Ive been told already, I wouldnt lose a nights sleep over the UPS deal. The rest is typical flgihtinfo

JethroF15,,,shucks thats cool

From Iowa?

WOW remote control cargo,,totally make sense

Guess you really weren't "done with this thread". Too bad!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Guess you really weren't "done with this thread". Too bad!

Go to bed jethro,,,I'm never done. Hell its only 23:15!

mustbe my upbringing,,,my constitution

 

[100-1/2]

I don't get it. you have said you would take the first to give you a class date. Sounds like a good plan!

In the extremely remote chance you are talking to one while you see the other beeping in on the Call Waiting/Caller ID, are you going to crap on the one you want least to answer the call of the other? Seems to me you answered your own question within the question.

I wish you the best of luck in either case. I would recommend formally withdrawing your application from the one that calls last. You save face and are not put into a position to appear anything less than ambitious for either company. You also don't want to regret turning one down later on. Better to get in on one company and after learning it isn't all it was choked up to be, reactivate your application with the second choice if you really feel you must do so. In 99% of the cases, you will spend a couple of years feeling your way around and inherently building valuable seniority before you begin to reconsider and weigh jumping ship. Highly unlikely with either of these choices you are very fortunate to have.

Good luck!

100-1/2

 

[Focus]

Two words: "Actuarial Tables"! Of the five most important variables concerning your career decision ask yourself, Whats really the most important thing?

I have not looked at a pay rate comparison of the two companies mentioned but if I were flying cargo for the rest of my career on long hauls I would want to make a heck of alot of money for my kids to enjoy after I die. Cercadian Rythm, Sleep Deprivation, and many other ailments go with working the wrong side of the clock. For every extra sunrise you see take 2 days off your life expectancy. Just a WAG. You probably will not have to much trouble with Skin Cancer so at least you will have that going for ya. Good Luck with your choice.

 

[ILUVURBANMYERS]

Guy I had to make the same call in 96. My thought was same as yours take the first job offered. If by some chance you are in training at UPS or SWA don't tell them you are in class with the other just ask for a postponement. I know SWA will let you slide a class and UPS called me back 3- months later but by then I decided to stay at good ol' SWA.
My feeling is you will know real quick if the night freight thing is for you. Here is what I did I had a UPS buddy e-mail me his next 3 day trip and I chair flew it. I know it sounds stupid but I "showed" at 1900 ( I am making these times up) stayed up all night, hit the rack-repeat.....By the last day my ass was dragging big time and that was why I stayed at SWA. I think you are in great shape no mater who you go with! Best of luck.
ILUVURBANMYERS

 

[Big Beer Belly]

In the sole interest of a little balance on this subject ... for the last 10 YEARS or so at UPS ... I've averaged approx 50 DAYS per YEAR of WORK and fly annually between 120-150 TOTAL HOURS. This is VERY COMMON on reserve. Many hundreds of pilots at UPS will quote similar days/flight time. My SWA buddies say this is unheard of working at SWA.

PS ... that's DAYTIME reserve also!

YMMV,

BBB

 

[English]

Big beer belly,

You were hired on at UPS with 7500 hours of military experience? WOW, that's impressive! For some reason I thought it was difficult to accumulate high flight hours in the military.

 

[Hobiehawker]

Guy I had to make the same call in 96. My thought was same as yours take the first job offered. If by some chance you are in training at UPS or SWA don't tell them you are in class with the other just ask for a postponement. I know SWA will let you slide a class and UPS called me back 3- months later but by then I decided to stay at good ol' SWA.
My feeling is you will know real quick if the night freight thing is for you. Here is what I did I had a UPS buddy e-mail me his next 3 day trip and I chair flew it. I know it sounds stupid but I "showed" at 1900 ( I am making these times up) stayed up all night, hit the rack-repeat.....By the last day my ass was dragging big time and that was why I stayed at SWA. I think you are in great shape no mater who you go with! Best of luck.
ILUVURBANMYERS

What an outstanding idea!!!

I always kinda of wondered the same thing myself. I did a few red-eyes in my past and knew it wasn't for me also.

UPS and FEDEX are good companies but I thought it would be too tough on me.

BBB,

Thats hardly working!! The airline pilots dream come true. But I know you are in the minority. Most all your fellow pilots are experiencing their flying much differently. I personally wouldn't want to live in any of your domiciles and thats what it would take to be on reserve.

Congrats on your cake lifestyle though.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Big beer belly,

You were hired on at UPS with 7500 hours of military experience? WOW, that's impressive! For some reason I thought it was difficult to accumulate high flight hours in the military.

Desert Storm/Shield in a C-141 ... we had guys hit their monthly max of 150 hrs in 11 days ... even more impressive when you figure required crew rest into those 11 days. Low-time military guys are usually fighter guys ... at 1.3 hrs per sortie it takes years to accumulate any substantial time.

BBB

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I personally wouldn't want to live in any of your domiciles and thats what it would take to be on reserve.

Now Hobie ... you're telling me there's nothing between Malibu and Coronado that's to your liking? Me thinks you need new spectacles ... <g> ... lots of pretty, young, tanned, hard-bodies soaking up the sun all around me ... I need reinforcements!

YMMV,

BBB

 

[Hobiehawker]

Now Hobie ... you're telling me there's nothing between Malibu and Coronado that's to your liking? Me thinks you need new spectacles ... <g> ... lots of pretty, young, tanned, hard-bodies soaking up the sun all around me ... I need reinforcements!

YMMV,

BBB

Too far from Oahu

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Too far from Oahu

Now I comprendo! Flew nothing but HNL for a while myself (both mil and at UPS) ... definitely one of the finest spots on the planet! Enjoy your good fortune Hobie!!

BBB

 

[Below Mins]

In the sole interest of a little balance on this subject ... for the last 10 YEARS or so at UPS ... I've averaged approx 50 DAYS per YEAR of WORK and fly annually between 120-150 TOTAL HOURS. This is VERY COMMON on reserve. Many hundreds of pilots at UPS will quote similar days/flight time.

I can attest to this. When I got my last FAA physical, I was almost embarrassed because I only flew 37 hours in the previous six months. And some of that was open time to keep crew skeds off my back about landing currency.

 

[TexaSWA]

I didnt log any time sitting for hours on a lazyboy in the middle of the night waiting for a sort. Done it before, wasnt for me. Some dont mind it.

You will be equally taken care of at both companies. Do you want to fly boxes, or do you want to fly people? Its as simple as that.

If "boxes dont bitch" is on the "pro" side of your pro vs. con list, please go fly cargo.

If "getting to interact with people" is on the "pro" side, you would probably be happier flying people.

 

[psysicx]

Is driving from San Diego to ONT that bad.

 

[Hobiehawker]

I can attest to this. When I got my last FAA physical, I was almost embarrassed because I only flew 37 hours in the previous six months. And some of that was open time to keep crew skeds off my back about landing currency.

The only thing about this issue is that it is an item the could likely be address in a future contract negotiation. Management for some reason has a thing about productivity.

For the mean time, all the more to ya. I flew 37 hours in the last two weeks!

 

[HoursHore]

The only thing about this issue is that it is an item the could likely be address in a future contract negotiation. Management for some reason has a thing about productivity.

For the mean time, all the more to ya. I flew 37 hours in the last two weeks!

Actually, thats the beauty of flying boxes. Its a different model altogether. based upon lift and infrastructure rather than keeping the airplanes in the air and getting the most out of your pilots.

If you knew how much FDX spent on Dead heads alone, you'd be agog at the inefficiency of the scheduling. But the revenue doesn't rely on that, rather the need of Business to get documents and packages to other places in america the next day. That's why FDX will send crewmembers on the private corporate fleet if needed, and has airport standbys all over the place. And thats why it costs 30 bucks to send an overnight envelope.

 

[Benhuntn]

I did my 757/767 type at UPS. They are a great company. From what I saw while there, I don't think the management/pilot relationship is as good as it is at SWA. I would be a little concerned about going to a company that voted in May for approval to strike if talks do not resolve the pay issues. I find everyone at SWA to be excellent to work with. Just my two cents good luck in your choice and enjoy some bbq for me at SDF.

 

[RogerOver]

Gimme a break

All of these posts implying that flying for UPS is tantamount to flying only nights, getting sick and dying young are making me laugh. This perception of the UPS lifestyle is about as accurate as those held by the people you meet at parties who ask “what’s your route?” when they find out you’re an airline pilot. Granted, I’ve been at UPS less than a year, but so far with the exception of IOE, I haven’t worked nights more than 3 times. It’s simple, if you don’t like working nights, don’t bid domestic. There’s tons of day flying on the international side.

I flew six legs-a-day to the same handful of destinations for a long time. And all the while, I was saying to myself I hope I can get on with UPS, fly someplace other than Des Moines and have some peace-of-mind (insofar as stability).

I’m not knocking anyone who wants to fly for SWA…it’s a great company and I have lots of happy friends there. But offering the notion “fly for SWA if you like people and want to live long” vs. “fly for UPS if you hate people, hate to fly and want to die young” is grossly inaccurate. I love to fly, like people (usually) and look forward to flying international for the foreseeable future.

Just my opinion…for whatever that’s worth.

RO

 

[Below Mins]

The only thing about this issue is that it is an item the could likely be address in a future contract negotiation. Management for some reason has a thing about productivity.

You're right, mgmt loves productivity. However, UPS tends to focus their productivity efforts on line holders. They like to keep reserves in their hip pocket to cover any hiccups in the system, and I don't think any major changes are likely for this very reason.

I don't know why reserve has such a bad reputation, at least at UPS. Sure, you will have some bad months. But you will come out way ahead in the long run. If you live in domicile and don't mind not knowing where you're going until you get called, reserve is the way to go.

Just my opinion.....

 

[flybrowntails]

ben:
"... approval to strike if talks do not resolve the pay issues" there were more important issues than simply compensation. for example scope (domestic and international-europe and asia), retirement, medical, sched. to name a few. the thought that such a high percentage voted in favor of a strike simply being based on compensation is grossly incorrect. i just want to make the point that while compensation is an important issue there are issues as important and in some cases more important (scope and retirement and sched).


as far as i am concerned if a person wants to come and work for a trucking and freight company..welcome, coffee is on me (the cheap cafe. type) if not please do not apply or take the job--i have friends who want to come be apart of this fly by night cargo outfit.

fbt

 

[Goose Egg]

I'm probably decades away from having to make this decision, but I'd probably go with WN because I'm absolutely a 0500 to 2300 type of guy, and I definitely like to interact with people. Flying a 737 domestically with quick turns wouldn't really bother me either, and I like to fly a lot--if I just sat at home all the time I'd start going crazy. I need action.

-Goose

 

[Below Mins]

if I just sat at home all the time I'd start going crazy. I need action.

That's what hobbies are for!!

 

[WillowRunVortex]

If your a person that likes to be up all night and can only fit in with other pilots, you must go to UPS or FEDEX. If you are a person that likes the occasional chat with a new person in your life and is willing to impress people with your skills, come on over to the light side. We like people,people. I came from the Dark side, and prefer the light side sssssssooooo much more.

 

[jhill]

If your a person that likes to be up all night and can only fit in with other pilots, you must go to UPS or FEDEX. If you are a person that likes the occasional chat with a new person in your life and is willing to impress people with your skills, come on over to the light side. We like people,people. I came from the Dark side, and prefer the light side sssssssooooo much more.

Amen Brother!

 

[Big Beer Belly]

To each his own I guess ... but I (personally) couldn't imagine 6-8 legs per day, in the same small aircraft your entire career, to the same little domestic towns, day after day, month after month, year after year ... short layovers, no ACARS ... can't imagine listening to ATIS and getting clearances manually every single leg. Beyond that .. what's with disconnecting LNAV/VNAV and the auto-throttles? Sounds like a LOT of work to me. Furthermore, at SWA you'll never have the opportunity to be a paid tourist in Honolulu, Sydney, Hong Kong, Singapore, Shanghai, Beijing, Tokyo, Seoul, Paris, London, Cologne, Vienna, Madrid, Oslo, Amsterdam or any of the other great international destinations. Most of UPS's international layovers are 24-96 hours ... plenty of time to explore the world while getting paid.

As for me ... I'd rather play with my kids, volunteer in their classrooms, go on their field trips, coach their athletic teams, surf, swim, golf, kayak, work out, chase Mrs BBB around the house (all WHILE getting paid!) and let all you gung-ho "people, people" <g> meet new and exciting other "people, people" between legs ... whoops forgot you've got to elbow the passengers out of the way to scramble down the concourse to pre-flight another jet ... while your cohort runs down the concourse looking for yet ANOTHER burrito or whopper (talk about taking years off your life! <g>)

YMMV,

BBB