Tough Choice--SWA or UPS?

[MVSW]

UPS!!! And I would love NOT having to deal with pax. UPS UPS

 

[Wingsweep]

Where I grew up, you would be called a DS

I have 5 factors that I think are important: Job security, pay, benefits, quality of life, and culture.

Did you think up these five factors all on you own? I must say, they are very original. Most people would have included color of the airplanes, or fit of the uniform as important issues. My guess is you're the guy who can't decide between pancakes or steak for dinner.

Hey, Flightinfo folks. I can't decide between pancakes or steak for dinner. My five factors are: flavor, texture, cost, meal size, and distance from Mecca. Like I said, what a DS. Cheers

 

[Below Mins]

Are you kidding me? These pilots wont have union protection like the UPS pilots. They simply should walk away from their jobs so that the UPS pilots can squable over the difference from 13.7 million in a career and 14 million? Smoke some more CRACK DUDE

It's all about right versus wrong. Moving struck goods is wrong. Like 410dude says, you belong in management. By the tone of your posts, sounds like you're the one smoking crack, DUDE!

 

[flybrowntails]

wingsweep:

best post i have read in a while.

fbt

 

[WillowRunVortex]

It's all about right versus wrong. Moving struck goods is wrong. Like 410dude says, you belong in management. By the tone of your posts, sounds like you're the one smoking crack, DUDE!

Look at 410's profile. Nuff said. I fly passengers, and will eventually retire from the airline I am with, and trust me, I want nothing to do with taking out the trash everynight anymore. Been there done that. But I am a mentor to a few young hopefuls over there at Willowrun, and here we go again with friggen UPS strike CRAP. Every company over there will book trips with UPS and expect their pilots to fly them. It is a situation that basically is not fair for the YIP pilots. BIG BROWN EYE isnt even an AIRLINE! It is a parcel service! Be prepared to have a bunch of competent folks in airplanes with all different paint jobs show up and move your stuff.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

"Cripes, why are there so many idiots trolling on this board just looking to get a rise out of people? Go back to playing Flight Sim, moron. You can fly those "cool" 747s and A380s all day long... lock the door to your room so Mommy won't interrupt you now..."

post from jbDC9 regarding 410dude


Evidently he didnt take the hint. Run along and play 410, and get off daddy's computer OK?

 

[TonyC]

Be prepared to have a bunch of competent folks in airplanes with all different paint jobs show up and move your stuff.

What began as my response to Widow's Son's post has turned into your crusade for scabs.

Let's break this down into two topics. First, the comment I made:

Teamsters will support an IPA strike.


This one is cut and dried, no need for discussion, in my opinion. I made this point to highlight the absurdity of Widow's Son's assertion that "if and when a nasty negotiation meltdown occurs" the strike could be circumvented with replacement "foreigners or scabs." (Foreign replacement pilots would be scabs, too, so I'm not impressed by the distinction. I suppose we could break it down into domestic scabs and foreign scabs, but who really cares? Scabs are scabs.) A strike by IPA will not be circumvented by scabs, because Teamsters pick up and deliver UPS packages, and UPS Teamsters will absolutely support an IPA strike. All the scab pilots in the world can fly all the brown airplanes anywhere they please, but the packages will be stuck on the ramps, because the brown trucks won't be moving.

Next, WillowRunVortex's assertion:

Scabbing against UPS is Okay.

Again, there's no need for discussion, but we'll discuss it anyway.

This is Dead wrong. The advice to anyone flying struck work that they will be "wrongly acused [sic] of being a scab" is FALSE. Anyone flying struck work would be RIGHTLY accused of being a scab, because they WOULD BE a scab, by even the strictest definition. No other issue, condition, or circumstance would mitigate this fact or is even relevant.

Other words and phrases you use to describe this fact of life:

"load of crap"

"[un]fair in anybody's book"

"a load of B.S."

"not fair "

All inaccurate, misleading, ignorant, and wrong.

I consider it extremely frightening that you consider yourself a mentor. Even more frightening still would be the belief by young pilots that you really ARE their mentor. Spreading this kind of advice can have no good consequence. Should you persuade others to scab, you will have their sin on your hands.



Let's review, shall we:

1) IPA strikes, Teamsters honors.

2) Scab = WRONG










.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

What began as my response to Widow's Son's post has turned into your crusade for scabs.

Let's break this down into two topics. First, the comment I made:

Teamsters will support an IPA strike.


This one is cut and dried, no need for discussion, in my opinion. I made this point to highlight the absurdity of Widow's Son's assertion that "if and when a nasty negotiation meltdown occurs" the strike could be circumvented with replacement "foreigners or scabs." (Foreign replacement pilots would be scabs, too, so I'm not impressed by the distinction. I suppose we could break it down into domestic scabs and foreign scabs, but who really cares? Scabs are scabs.) A strike by IPA will not be circumvented by scabs, because Teamsters pick up and deliver UPS packages, and UPS Teamsters will absolutely support an IPA strike. All the scab pilots in the world can fly all the brown airplanes anywhere they please, but the packages will be stuck on the ramps, because the brown trucks won't be moving.

Next, WillowRunVortex's assertion:

Scabbing against UPS is Okay.

Again, there's no need for discussion, but we'll discuss it anyway.

This is Dead wrong. The advice to anyone flying struck work that they will be "wrongly acused [sic] of being a scab" is FALSE. Anyone flying struck work would be RIGHTLY accused of being a scab, because they WOULD BE a scab, by even the strictest definition. No other issue, condition, or circumstance would mitigate this fact or is even relevant.

Other words and phrases you use to describe this fact of life:

"load of crap"

"[un]fair in anybody's book"

"a load of B.S."

"not fair "

All inaccurate, misleading, ignorant, and wrong.

I consider it extremely frightening that you consider yourself a mentor. Even more frightening still would be the belief by young pilots that you really ARE their mentor. Spreading this kind of advice can have no good consequence. Should you persuade others to scab, you will have their sin on your hands.



Let's review, shall we:

1) IPA strikes, Teamsters honors.

2) Scab = WRONG










.

OK, Now I would like you to give me the info I should tell these 2 young folks, (one with a newborn), when they refuse a UPS trip and predictably, are fired and immediatly loose their income. I dont want to hear about dignity, I want real answers to real questions, such as what will I do to put food in my baby's mouth?

 

[TonyC]

OK, Now I would like you to give me the info I should tell these 2 young folks, (one with a newborn), when they refuse a UPS trip and predictably, are fired and immediatly loose their income. I dont want to hear about dignity, I want real answers to real questions, such as what will I do to put food in my baby's mouth?

Tell them that you don't have the honor or integrity to advise a snake.


The right thing to tell them is "Don't fly struck work." It's also very simple.


If you can't tell them the right thing, don't tell them anything at all.





.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Here is the problem,,,pilots do just fine over at Willow Run flying mostly auto freight. The biggest problem seems to be everytime contract negotiations start at UPS, pilots at Willow go Oh boy here we go. Because YIP is in the freight business they are automatically called to solve your guy's problems.


P.S, Plus Connie taught your company how to do it prior to 1988

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Tell them that you don't have the honor or integrity to advise a snake.


The right thing to tell them is "Don't fly struck work." It's also very simple.


If you can't tell them the right thing, don't tell them anything at all.





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Ya know, I should have known better to engage in a conversation with an ex- mil guy who puts C-172 in the aircraft experience section, says it all brotha

 

[Hobiehawker]

A scab is a scab and is one for life. No doubt about that. This kinda falls in a grey area for me.

I'm rather certain if UPS or FEDEX ever struck that they would possibly use the PAX carriers to haul some of their freight. Would these pilots be considered scabs also? What about a PAX carrier going on strike and the airline on strike books their PAX on other airlines. I might be missing something here. I would think if UPS or FEDEX strike then a scab would be one to cross their lines and fly their colors. I know during busy times like xmas, at least in the past, UPS would charter other freight airlines to pick up the increase demand. Doesn't this violate some type of scope? Maybe it doesn't even relate.

 

[TonyC]

Here is the problem,,,pilots do just fine over at Willow Run flying mostly auto freight. The biggest problem seems to be everytime contract negotiations start at UPS, pilots at Willow go Oh boy here we go. Because YIP is in the freight business they are automatically called to solve your guy's problems.


P.S, Plus Connie taught your company how to do it prior to 1988

No, here is the problem:

Right is right, and wrong is wrong, and you can't seem to distinguish the difference.

SCABBING is wrong. All the words you use to attempt to justify it are nothing more than Wuh, wuh, wuh, wuh, wuh and blah blah blah blah blah. In the end, SCABBING is still wrong. You're only wasting your breath.



Mobilize every freight airplane in the world, and you're still stuck with the FACT that UPS freight will not be delivered by a Teamster if the IPA strikes. UPS freight will not be picked up by a Teamster if the IPA strikes. One day after an IPA strike begins, there will be no freight TO move. I don't even understand why you'd be slightly concerned. You're expending an awful lot of credibility capital on a non-issue. In fact, I'd say you're unarmed at this point.





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[WillowRunVortex]

A scab is a scab and is one for life. No doubt about that. This kinda falls in a grey area for me.

I'm rather certain if UPS or FEDEX ever struck that they would possibly use the PAX carriers to haul some of their freight. Would these pilots be considered scabs also? What about a PAX carrier going on strike and the airline on strike books their PAX on other airlines. I might be missing something here. I would think if UPS or FEDEX strike then a scab would be one to cross their lines and fly their colors. I know during busy times like xmas, at least in the past, UPS would charter other freight airlines to pick up the increase demand. Doesn't this violate some type of scope? Maybe it doesn't even relate.

No your not missing anything. Thanks for the response, appreciate it.

 

[TonyC]

Ya know, I should have known better to engage in a conversation with an ex- mil guy who puts C-172 in the aircraft experience section, says it all brotha

Yepp, as I suspected, you're out of ammunition and down to personal attacks.



Thanks for playing.






.

 

[TAZ MAN]

Yepp, as I suspected, you're out of ammunition and down to personal attacks.



Thanks for playing.
.

Pot....meet kettle..

 

[WillowRunVortex]

I'm also curious about this. I work for an ACMI carrier that periodically flys for UPS during peak season. And I would hate for myself or any of my union coworkers end up on any kind of scab list in the event of an IPA Strike.

To say that no freight would move during the strike is not a correct statement. In 1997, UPS closed the offices of management and asked management types to go to work driving trucks all over the country. A tiny fraction of the cargo moved, but some did nonetheless. I know most of the feeders (non union) flew cargo in and out of SDF during the strike. None of theese men ended up on a scab list.

I only ask theese questions because I want to make sure a clear, defined view of struck work is given prior to a strike of UPS pilots. Because I have no intent to fly struck UPS work, ever. But nor do I want to loose my job.

I know this issue is still a few months atleast away, but the earlier we start asking the questions, the better.

Thanks, I know alot of guys who were in their 20's at the time that flew lears into SDF in 97. It was a big deal at the time, and none of them ended up on ANY scab list. But be assured they were threatened that they would never get another professional aviation job. This is traumatic for a 20 somthing wanting nothing to do with politics but just loving airplanes. I guess you could call it basic training for the life-style. The PAX industry is not quite this hardcore but then again, they didnt choose the Teamsters to represent them.

 

[TonyC]

This kinda falls in a grey area for me.

I know during busy times like xmas, at least in the past, UPS would charter other freight airlines to pick up the increase demand. Doesn't this violate some type of scope? Maybe it doesn't even relate.

Excellent point, and excellent question. It's not gray, but it is a little tricky.


At this very moment, Gemini is operating some charters for FedEx. If FedEx ALPA were to strike today (this is a hypothetical, mind you) those Gemini charters would continue to operate without risk. However, if FedEx attempted to contract for additional charters, or attempted to contract other charter companies, those would violate the "picket line." Any work that WOULD HAVE BEEN flown by striking pilots is considered struck work, and flying that struck work would be scabbing. Those Gemini charters in progress would not have been flown by FedEx pilots, so they would not be considered struck work, even as they used the FedEx callsign. I believe it would be unreasonable to hold Capt Northwest to be responsible for knowing that FedEx had spirited a bag of letters in his belly freight, but not unreasonable for Capt Atlas to recognize a 747 full of FedEx ULDs.


As you suggested, there is the possibility that a passenger airline would attempt to circumvent a strike by booking its passengers on another airline, whether it be a feeder, a code-share, or another competitor. We saw Delta flying while COMAIR was on strike. Who's to know what the individual passenger would have done were there not a strike in progress? However, if the Delta crew is flying a Delta flight in a Delta airplane on a Delta timetable, there's not a problem. If Delta were to attempt to fly a Delta crew and a Delta airplane on a COMAIR flight, timetable, etc., that would have been considered struck work.




.

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Excellent point, and excellent question. It's not gray, but it is a little tricky.


At this very moment, Gemini is operating some charters for FedEx. If FedEx ALPA were to strike today (this is a hypothetical, mind you) those Gemini charters would continue to operate without risk. However, if FedEx attempted to contract for additional charters, or attempted to contract other charter companies, those would violate the "picket line." Any work that WOULD HAVE BEEN flown by striking pilots is considered struck work, and flying that struck work would be scabbing. Those Gemini charters in progress would not have been flown by FedEx pilots, so they would not be considered struck work, even as they used the FedEx callsign. I believe it would be unreasonable to hold Capt Northwest to be responsible for knowing that FedEx had spirited a bag of letters in his belly freight, but not unreasonable for Capt Atlas to recognize a 747 full of FedEx ULDs.


As you suggested, there is the possibility that a passenger airline would attempt to circumvent a strike by booking its passengers on another airline, whether it be a feeder, a code-share, or another competitor. We saw Delta flying while COMAIR was on strike. Who's to know what the individual passenger would have done were there not a strike in progress? However, if the Delta crew is flying a Delta flight in a Delta airplane on a Delta timetable, there's not a problem. If Delta were to attempt to fly a Delta crew and a Delta airplane on a COMAIR flight, timetable, etc., that would have been considered struck work.




.

Well, this has all happened once before. No one that I am aware of ended up on a scab list so, advice to the YIP folks is be prepared.

 

[Hobiehawker]

Excellent point, and excellent question. It's not gray, but it is a little tricky.


At this very moment, Gemini is operating some charters for FedEx. If FedEx ALPA were to strike today (this is a hypothetical, mind you) those Gemini charters would continue to operate without risk. However, if FedEx attempted to contract for additional charters, or attempted to contract other charter companies, those would violate the "picket line." Any work that WOULD HAVE BEEN flown by striking pilots is considered struck work, and flying that struck work would be scabbing. Those Gemini charters in progress would not have been flown by FedEx pilots, so they would not be considered struck work, even as they used the FedEx callsign. I believe it would be unreasonable to hold Capt Northwest to be responsible for knowing that FedEx had spirited a bag of letters in his belly freight, but not unreasonable for Capt Atlas to recognize a 747 full of FedEx ULDs.


As you suggested, there is the possibility that a passenger airline would attempt to circumvent a strike by booking its passengers on another airline, whether it be a feeder, a code-share, or another competitor. We saw Delta flying while COMAIR was on strike. Who's to know what the individual passenger would have done were there not a strike in progress? However, if the Delta crew is flying a Delta flight in a Delta airplane on a Delta timetable, there's not a problem. If Delta were to attempt to fly a Delta crew and a Delta airplane on a COMAIR flight, timetable, etc., that would have been considered struck work.
.

Understand. How about a FEDEX package on an AA flight that the crew knew about? Or putting on the packages on some extra sections on Gemini? Not FEDEX call signs or flight numbers.

It starts getting cloudy for me.

 

[Buckaroo]

Please don't flame me!! I am in the fortunate position of having to choose between UPS and SWA. I am in the pool for both and will probably take the first one to give me a class date.

I have 5 factors that I think are important: Job security, pay, benefits, quality of life, and culture. I give Brown the edge on job security and benefits and SWA the nod on quality of life and corporate culture. The last factor is pay. SWA is much better now, especially considering the money you lose at Brown during the first year. But if the new contract comes through, maybe UPS will have the better pay.

Like I said, I am in the pool for both and have at least a few weeks to entertain conjecture. NAy inputs?

Everyone knows that SWA is the holy grail for pilots. You should definitely go for WN. Trust me, you can't beat it. All of our employees are top notch and
we are going to put everyone else out of business after we get the Wright Ammendment repealed.

 

[semperfido]

Everyone knows that SWA is the holy grail for pilots.

....he says with tongue in cheek

 

[WillowRunVortex]

Understand. How about a FEDEX package on an AA flight that the crew knew about? Or putting on the packages on some extra sections on Gemini? Not FEDEX call signs or flight numbers.

It starts getting cloudy for me.

I am going to entertain this notion. Wanna know what would happen at AA if I told the cap that I couldnt fly cause I knew a struck FDX letter was in the belly? Flight wouldnt go. Wanna know why? Cause the cap would have sh1t himself from laughing so hard.

 

[LittleLearBoy]

Which one!

Hello,

My 1.75 cents. I will make is very easy for you. Since you are not sure which one, just take SWA (even if they call second) and you tell UPS that LLB and others who have made there mind up already are still swimming in the pool and would like to get out and dry off.

Done,

Have a nice day.
LLB

 

[Bobby Orr 4]

Everyone knows that SWA is the holy grail for pilots. You should definitely go for WN. Trust me, you can't beat it. All of our employees are top notch and
we are going to put everyone else out of business after we get the Wright Ammendment repealed.

I agree...to a point. Jumpseating on SWA is always a pleasant experience. The employees are genuine and seem to enjoy their jobs. Whenever I do jumpseat on your airplanes I stay motivated to work hard and remain optomistic that I will fly for them in the future.
The Wright Ammendment is anti-competitive IMHO. However I do not see AA going Tango Uniform if the WA is repealed. They will adjust, survive, and eventually profit either way.

 

[TonyC]

To say that no freight would move during the strike is not a correct statement. In 1997, UPS closed the offices of management and asked management types to go to work driving trucks all over the country. A tiny fraction of the cargo moved, but some did nonetheless. I know most of the feeders (non union) flew cargo in and out of SDF during the strike. None of theese men ended up on a scab list.

I hope I didn't say "no frieight would move." I've tried to qualify in each instance that TEAMSTERS would move no freight. If I missed one, I apologize. No Teamsters moved freight in 1997. The IPA honored the 1997 Teamsters strike. If the IPA strikes, UPS Teamsters will honor that strike as well.


I am aware that managers worked through the UPS Teamsters strike of 1997 to move a tiny fraction of their freight. To the best of my knowledge, their efforts only went so far as to deliver the highly perishable and/or valuable freight that was in the system when the strike began. I may be mistaken about the scope of their efforts, but that's immaterial. The point, one more time, is - - UPS Teamsters will honor an IPA strike.


I'm not familiar with specifics of contractor flying during 1997. I can only offer this thought: from the perspective of a pilot, honoring the Teamsters picket line and honoring an IPA picket line are subtly different. In '97, Teamsters were striking, and IPA was honoring the strike. Any injury done by contract flyers was done to Teamsters. Their efforts were not threatened by a fleet of Lears. Add to this the question of whether those charters would have been flown by IPA pilots in the first place, and you have a very complex scenario to reconstruct. Have you eaten any Diamond brand canned or bagged walnuts or walnut pieces lately? If so, you're guilty of disregarding a boycott, but not of scabbing. The same applies for R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Co. cigarettes (Best Value, Camel, Century, Doral, Eclipse, Magna, Monarch, More, Now, Salem, Sterling, Vantage, and Winston), Echostar Dish Network, and Black Entertainment Television (BET cable television, Action pay-per-view, and BET on Jazz) as well as the Big League Theatricals Road Company performance of "Miss Saigon." (More at www.unionlabel.org - Boycott List)

Let's for a moment assume that those flying the charters in '97 were indeed by all rights deserving of the label "scab." (I said assume, so don't bother arguing why they shouldn't. Just follow along for a second, OK?) Let's also say that they got away with it, and nobody knows, and nobody ever will know. They might be sitting right next to an IPA pilot in a UPS cockpit at this very moment, and nobody's the wiser. So what? Does that mean it will be OK in the future to scab? Does that mean that the '97 scab will jump in and defend a 2005 scab by pointing out that HE scabbed back then, and he's OK, so the 2005 scab is OK, too? Does that make the '97 scab immune himself to scabbing in 2005? Not hardly. What happened then is of no matter. (OK, relax, hypothetical over. )



In the event of an IPA strike, I believe IPA will make it very simple to identify struck work, and will make the ramifications of flying struck work very clear.






.

 

[Below Mins]

Tell them that you don't have the honor or integrity to advise a snake.


The right thing to tell them is "Don't fly struck work." It's also very simple.


If you can't tell them the right thing, don't tell them anything at all.

TonyC, I couldn't have said it better myself. Any advice that WillowRunVortex gives must be taken with a grain of salt. The younger guys that he "mentors" must realize that any decision they make may have undesireable consequences (i.e. branded a SCAB) and will affect them for the rest of their careers.

 

[TonyC]

How about a FEDEX package on an AA flight that the crew knew about?

That happens every day. I would consider it freight that AA would have flown anyway, not struck work.

Or putting on the packages on some extra sections on Gemini? Not FEDEX call signs or flight numbers.

Extra means FedEx would have been doing it were it not for the strike. Struck work.


If it's work that would have been performed by the group withdrawing their services, it's struck work. Don't even worry about a call sign or flight number - - that's irrelevant. Those can be made up overnight. (We could begin a discussion of scheduled versus supplemental here, but that would be pointless. Just don't even worry about the call sign.)


Again, in the event of an IPA strike, I believe IPA will make it very simple to identify struck work, and will make the ramifications of flying struck work very clear.





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[capt. megadeth]

OK, Now I would like you to give me the info I should tell these 2 young folks, (one with a newborn), when they refuse a UPS trip and predictably, are fired and immediatly loose their income. I dont want to hear about dignity, I want real answers to real questions, such as what will I do to put food in my baby's mouth?

1. Live below your means

2. Save money so you have at least 6 months funding

3. Don't have a baby unless you have #2

4. Marry someone that can carry the load (ie. HAS A FRIGGIN CAREER or income potential) if you ever can't (ie. strike)

Sorry, I don't buy the "I am a scab because I needed to put food on the table" b.s. Should've had a back up plan.

 

[TonyC]

If I may be so bold as to digress to the original question in this thread...



SWA or UPS?

I have 5 factors that I think are important: Job security, ...

I believe that both companies offer job security. I would have stated the same about Pan Am, United, or Delta many years ago. I believe the freight business, and more specifically, the express package business, offers more security and stability than the passenger industry, in general. Therefore, I would give UPS the win in this column.

I do NOT agree with the assertions of some that a UPS pilot can be more easily replaced.


The Railway Labor Act equally protects both pilot groups.






.