Today's Wallstreet Journal, page B3...Union Strong

[pilotyip]

I'm not 100% union but they are the only ones looking out for me and my family at the moment. And I will support them. I will not subsidize Thurmond and Virginia Warbucks at the expense of my middle class family so that they can get to Martha's Vineyard for a few hundred bucks less. NJA is making records profits, paying down record debt, and ordering record numbers of airplanes. Flying is expensive. So is Cartier and Rolex. Either pay what it costs or try your luck at Billy Bob's 135. I've been there. Rolling rest, B.S. MX logs, and every other way to circumvent industry safety measures. NJA is a different standard. Either pay it or let's shut it down.

Thank you for your kind response, no name calling or such. But are you willing to shut the place down if you do not get what you want? So you can go back to the "Billy Bob's 135".

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Thank you for your kind response, no name calling or such. But are you willing to shut the place down if you do not get what you want? So you can go back to the "Billy Bob's 135".

There are two ways to look at this. The question that can also be asked of Mr Buffet is "are you willing to shut down NetJets if you/Mr. Hansell don't get your way?" The reality is that BH will sell NJ off long before doors get closed so the discussion is a red herring.

Pretty sad to see the once mighty NJ culture being destroyed by leadership who really has no idea what the Company culture brought to product delivery.

 

[acaTerry]

Same mindset! Although, I think the Union enthuriasts are sincere when they think people like me are management pukes. Still makes them wrong and rude. One thing more I am curious about: do the Bentovers of the world never fly with people who think like me? I do most of the time. Rarely am I with someone who thinks we should strike or shut it down, or thinks I am nuts for not being apoplectic at Jordy about the lowball negotiating offers.

PM sent. Hopefully we'll fly again soon we can talk more then.

 

[G4dude]

PM sent. Hopefully we'll fly again soon we can talk more then.

I lok forward to that.

 

[gunfyter]

Thanks! But stubborn? I hope not. Regarding the latest proposal from NJA, my view is that all this is part of the negotiation. They lowball, we counter with much higher numbers, back and forth, inching closer to a deal. Why get outraged in the middle of the process? They want us to fly for peanuts, we want to make a LOT of money. An agreement will be reached and we will THEN read it and vote it up or down.

You are correct it is all part of the unfortunate game/process.

Something is ignored by most Libertarians or at least those who despise labor unions. Management also combines or unionizes in order to keep wages low. Managements have a natural advantage.

Capitalist hero Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations book 1 chapter 8:

What are the common wages of labour, depends every where upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labour.

Combine means UNION
Smith continues:

"It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit their combinations,*10 while it prohibits those of the workmen...."

All here

Smith: Wealth of Nations, Book I, Chapters 8-9 | Library of Economics and Liberty
www.econlib.org

We always hear complaints about labor union tactics... But one of the "gods of Capitalism" says it plainly here:

"We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and every where in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate...."

 

[G4dude]

You are correct it is all part of the unfortunate game/process.

Something is ignored by most Libertarians or at least those who despise labor unions. Management also combines or unionizes in order to keep wages low. Managements have a natural advantage.

Capitalist hero Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations book 1 chapter 8:


Combine means UNION
Smith continues:


All here

Smith: Wealth of Nations, Book I, Chapters 8-9 | Library of Economics and Liberty
www.econlib.org

We always hear complaints about labor union tactics... But one of the "gods of Capitalism" says it plainly here:

My hero Adam Smith had not the advantage of observing unions feeding off the companies that employ their members in the 200 years since he wrote those words. And the damage unions can do is mainly due to the fact that companies invest huge sums building and growing the enterprise, then the union threatens to destroy it. I think individual bargaining works better. Not perfectly, but better. However, in-house unions like NJASAP are much fairer and less suicidal than an odious group such as the Teamsters or some other third party union.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

My hero Adam Smith had not the advantage of observing unions feeding off the companies that employ their members in the 200 years since he wrote those words. And the damage unions can do is mainly due to the fact that companies invest huge sums building and growing the enterprise, then the union threatens to destroy it. I think individual bargaining works better. Not perfectly, but better. However, in-house unions like NJASAP are much fairer and less suicidal than an odious group such as the Teamsters or some other third party union.

Adam Smith was a philosopher and a bit of an awkward man according to historical accounts. Calling him a hero is a stretch when he accomplished no heroic acts. Any reasonable interpretation of the word "hero" does not fit. He was just a man with interesting ideas, some good, some bad.

While it is true, he never dealt with Unions, it also true that he predated the industrial revolution and the growth of the exploitation of the powerless by the powerful at a macroeconomic level. Unions came into existence, quite simply, to extinguish the exploitation of workers in safety, work rules, and compensation. They continue to this day for most of the same reasons they were started.

Historically, Union tactics have, from time to time, been out of line. So have Company tactics. It easy to find historical accounts of organized labor associated with shady organizations. The same goes for Companies so that is a wash too. For every account of baseball bat swinging IBT Mafia thugs you will bring up, I will counter with stories of murdered workers, their wives, and their children under orders of the robber barons of this country.

Those companies that have Unions deserve them for their demonstrated acts of exploitation. That will continue forever because profit creep and the power of money will always drive shareholder value to a position above stakeholder value without binding legal documents to balance it.

 

[Downwind]

Thank you for your kind response, no name calling or such. But are you willing to shut the place down if you do not get what you want? So you can go back to the "Billy Bob's 135".

Absolutely. There will be a NetJets in some form. There are folks that demand the safety and integrity that we were. While on furlough I flew for NJA owners that were looking for a cheaper deal. And we were. But we came with all the paper whipped MX, rolling rest, forged duty sheets, flagrant GOM/FAR violations, and the threats to our jobs if we didn't. Most of the NJA owners went back to NJA and at a larger share after seeing what discount operators offer.

The demand for a quality product is there and I won't be a part of the pilot group that provides that quality for discount labor prices. Either pay what it costs or shut it down.

 

[gunfyter]

My hero Adam Smith had not the advantage of observing unions feeding off the companies that employ their members in the 200 years since he wrote those words. And the damage unions can do is mainly due to the fact that companies invest huge sums building and growing the enterprise, then the union threatens to destroy it. I think individual bargaining works better. Not perfectly, but better. However, in-house unions like NJASAP are much fairer and less suicidal than an odious group such as the Teamsters or some other third party union.

Thats not the end of what Smith says (check out Book 1 Chapter 10) and I got some FA Hayek and Henry Hazlitt for you too.

IMO the Unions are part of capitalism. We can't individually negotiate with management.

I worked non union and can attest to what Downwind posted. People are flying tired, on broken airplanes and low pay. Even Santulli said in aviation you want union pilots who can't be pressured.

 

[pilotyip]

My hero Adam Smith had not the advantage of observing unions feeding off the companies that employ their members in the 200 years since he wrote those words. And the damage unions can do is mainly due to the fact that companies invest huge sums building and growing the enterprise, then the union threatens to destroy it. I think individual bargaining works better. Not perfectly, but better. However, in-house unions like NJASAP are much fairer and less suicidal than an odious group such as the Teamsters or some other third party union.

Well said, out of touch with economic reality unions can destroy companies, cities, states, and their members lives. Again all that being said, a resonance united stand against bad management that comes up with a win-win ending is in the best interest of everyone.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Well said, out of touch with economic reality unions can destroy companies, cities, states, and their members lives.

Allow me to restate what your wrote from a just as appropriate perspective.

Well said, out of touch with economic reality management can destroy companies, cities, states, and their employees lives.

 

[pilotyip]

Allow me to restate what your wrote from a just as appropriate perspective.

Thank you for your kind response. I Couldn't agree more; it is a two way street, but to say unions are harmless, well that is just not true. Many times it is about powerful individuals, both union and management and not what is best for all involved

 

[gunfyter]

... it is a two way street, but to say unions are harmless, well that is just not true. Many times it is about powerful individuals, both union and management and not what is best for all involved

Both sides have to be smart.

There is an increasing demand for pilots right now... some say a shortage. Why would we be talking about concessions?

If they were not looking for concessions, why were negotiations opened?

We would not even be in negotiations if the option of extending the current agreement had been taken by management.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Both sides have to be smart.

There is an increasing demand for pilots right now... some say a shortage. Why would we be talking about concessions?

If they were not looking for concessions, why were negotiations opened?

We would not even be in negotiations if the option of extending the current agreement had been taken by management.

Extending the CBA was a predictable expense that would not have really changed the bottom line back to WB significantly and definitely not BH profits. Short and simple, they got greedy.

What is happening now was controllable by people that should have known better. A very profitable company, in actual dollars back to BH (not to mention to soft money passing one pocket to the other), makes for an unfavorable bargaining climate for the Company. The more the economy improves, especially for the wealthiest of the world, the more the concessions fall on deaf ears.

It is all actually somewhat entertaining to watch. Leadership has sufficiently ticked off all the employee groups, unionized or not, so the call to arms against the big bad NUC is getting nowhere. It is an impossible sell to get employees to agree to take cuts all the while, desiring more profits to BH.

BH is making money hand over fist, all the while poking a stick in the eye of the working class in America as smart BH people find Duracell loopholes in the tax laws so BH can avoid paying taxes. At the end of the day BH investors make massive returns and the rest of us just want to be treated with respect and compensated appropriately for the product we deliver.

As a good benchmark, about 4 years ago, NJASAP bought one share of BRK.A for around $115K. Today that share is worth $218K. BH does not need more from NJ employees.

 

[gunfyter]

Short and simple, they got greedy.
.

Yep. They want to ... "Cheap Out on their pilots"