Today's Wallstreet Journal, page B3...Union Strong

[shanes123]

Kick ass guys. Set the standard again.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Bingo!

....... But then again, we the pilots have been enduring far worse from this piece of human scum for far longer.

Fight's on!!!

He is probably a lot of things but human scum is not one of them. Keep it real or the hyperbole just drives fence sitters away from Union participation. It is not personal, it is just business and his interests as the rep for BH conflict with the pilot group's.

 

[realityman]

He is probably a lot of things but human scum is not one of them. Keep it real or the hyperbole just drives fence sitters away from Union participation. It is not personal, it is just business and his interests as the rep for BH conflict with the pilot group's.

I hate the phrase "it's just business". Why? Because it's not. It's very personal. Trying to take away, or reduce, our healthcare coverage hurts my family. I take that personally. Trying to take away or reduce my retirement funding is very personal to me. Telling us we're "part time employees", when in fact we put in more hours in one week than most regular workers do in two, is a personal insult. Threatening to move our work to subsidiaries if I don't take a pay cut so a hugely profitable company can put more coin in the pocket of a guy who is already worth $67 billion may be "just business" to him, but it would hurt my family and I consider it a personal attack. Reducing maintenance and pushing us to carry write-ups, fly tired, fly sick, and fly hungry may be a "business-based" decision, but it puts my life at risk, and i most definitely take that personally! The list is VERY long but nI think you get the idea. What is "just business" to one person can be intensely personal to someone else.

Now about the "human scum" thing. Look, if JH wants to play hardball at the negotiating, quite frankly, that's expected. If he wants to insult us, well, that's also expected. If he's trying his hardest to increase returns to BH, that's expected too. None of that rises to the level of "human scum".
But JH has gone well beyond "hard-nosed negotiator". He has started firing people for the sole purpose of intimidating us. These are real people with real careers being shattered and real families being torn apart by his "just business". How do you do that and still sleep at night? That is a bottom feeder move! And I won't sugarcoat it. There are other things going on that he's responsible for too that go well below the belt of simply being a tough negotiator.

Now, if these so-called fence sitters are so put off by an anonymous poster on FI calling JH what he is, then they probably weren't coming off the fence anyway. In fact, if they're really still "on the fence" after all the crap that's been going on, I'm not going to waste a single second worrying about what they think of my posts.

Sorry if this offends you, but it wasn't I or the union who took the gloves off first for this fight.

 

[T-1GUY]

Amen !!!!

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

I hate the phrase "it's just business". Why? Because it's not. It's very personal. Trying to take away, or reduce, our healthcare coverage hurts my family. I take that personally. Trying to take away or reduce my retirement funding is very personal to me. Telling us we're "part time employees", when in fact we put in more hours in one week than most regular workers do in two, is a personal insult. Threatening to move our work to subsidiaries if I don't take a pay cut so a hugely profitable company can put more coin in the pocket of a guy who is already worth $67 billion may be "just business" to him, but it would hurt my family and I consider it a personal attack.

The pilot group controls the negotiation destiny not the company. The current CBA does not expire it only becomes amendable. Let them threaten cuts and concessions all they want. It means nothing unless the pilot group agrees to it. If it gets to the NMB it is doubtful concessions in a profitable company, that is paying down debt and expanding globally will fly with a mediator. The threat is not the company demanding concessions. The threat is another pilot that might believe their propaganda and therefore actually vote for a subpar CBA.

Reducing maintenance and pushing us to carry write-ups, fly tired, fly sick, and fly hungry may be a "business-based" decision, but it puts my life at risk, and i most definitely take that personally!

The pilot group again controls their destiny. If they fly tired, sick, hungry, not fit for duty, or fly broken airplanes then those pilots put everything at risk for themselves, their families, and the other employees. Company leadership ultimately has nothing to do with those choices. All are protected by the FARs and/or CBA for the pilots. No one has been or will be disciplined or terminated for properly exercising those rights. If the pilots want big compensation then individually, they need to grow a big pair and stand up for themselves when they need to properly exercise the protections.

The list is VERY long but nI think you get the idea. What is "just business" to one person can be intensely personal to someone else.

Making it personal can lead to mistakes. Mistakes can have big consequences in this environment. One only has to look at the ill-advised crew food choice an individual made a few years back and you can see how that can go. Probably better to just ignore the propaganda realizing it means nothing just like it meant nothing in 2005.

Labor has been under attack in the country for a long time. This is just a continuation of the robber barons of a century ago and that is the BH issue in play. Ever wonder why none of the BH companies are generally not in the top 100 best companies to work for? Take the vitriol to WB and BH where it all decisions emanate from. Grandpa WB speaks like a liberal democrat to be popular while using his Sokol like thugs to do his conservative anti-union republican like dirty work.

Now about the "human scum" thing. Look, if JH wants to play hardball at the negotiating, quite frankly, that's expected. If he wants to insult us, well, that's also expected. If he's trying his hardest to increase returns to BH, that's expected too. None of that rises to the level of "human scum.

Thus my original comment.

But JH has gone well beyond "hard-nosed negotiator". He has started firing people for the sole purpose of intimidating us. These are real people with real careers being shattered and real families being torn apart by his "just business". How do you do that and still sleep at night? That is a bottom feeder move! And I won't sugarcoat it. There are other things going on that he's responsible for too that go well below the belt of simply being a tough negotiator.

Do you have personal knowledge of all the termination cases and whether the legal threshold of just cause was achieved? Unless you do you are probably not in a position to comment. Even then, not everyone may agree with your opinion as to whether or not termination was or was not justified.

Do you even know if JH was the decision maker on any or all of them? If he was that would be a change in protocol. It was probably done by the HR department on the recommendation of DM. JH will steer clear of those decisions as he has hired people to make those calls. That includes an extensive legal team to avoid bad choices.

An arbitrator will make the final call so time will tell since documentation in arbitration becomes public record for the membership to view. What if an arbitrator upholds the termination cases as meeting the threshold for just cause and the discipline imposed was reasonable. That means that they actually are not hostages and are not coming back. Have you read the recent termination case reports and the arbitration decisions?

What was the recommendation of the NJASAP legal team and outside advisers for this declaration of hostage status? Now that they are hostages by decree of the EBoard what are you willing to give up in your CBA to get them back? Are you willing to give up things before the facts of each case come out? What is going to happen when hostages are created at some point in the future. How much is the pilot group willing to give to get them back? That is how it works.

Now, if these so-called fence sitters are so put off by an anonymous poster on FI calling JH what he is, then they probably weren't coming off the fence anyway. In fact, if they're really still "on the fence" after all the crap that's been going on, I'm not going to waste a single second worrying about what they think of my posts.

One big assumption by you. I never said anything about NJASAP pilots as fence sitters in my earlier post. You referred to JH as human scum without justification. You called him scum ?just because? leaving the reader wondering why. There is a big debate on this board between the pro Union and anti-Union crowds. Some will view such commentary as bat swinging teamsters behavior at a time the pilot group, the industry, and labor in general needs to be inclusive. Provide information and education and the group in the middle (small or large) will see the light.

To address your comment about fence sitters, there are some of course at NJASAP. Every vote matters. The objective of the company is 50% plus 1 vote so that a fence sitter of one vote matters and could make or break the outcome. Convert the fence sitters where ever they are through reason and logic. They will follow.

Sorry if this offends you, but it wasn't I or the union who took the gloves off first for this fight.

I never said any of your words offend me. They don't. If you objectively look at history, you will see that both the company and the union took their respective gloves off at about the same time. Now, none of that really matters as both entities are taking swings at each other. It is what it is and the best description of much of it is inefficient us of time, effort, money and along with a smattering of sophomoric behavior at some levels of leadership and management.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Just, in case you haven't figured it out, not all republicans are anti-union. Or are you trying to divide the group? And wasn't it Ford and mass production that lead to the 40 hour work week?

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Just, in case you haven't figured it out, not all republicans are anti-union. Or are you trying to divide the group? And wasn't it Ford and mass production that lead to the 40 hour work week?

Not trying to divide anyone. I don't believe in that. I am well aware that not all republicans are anti-union. All I need to do is look into a mirror. As a parties and generally speaking in today's environment, Republicans tend to support business over labor and the other way around for the Democrats. Is what it is.

Push back from labor across multiple industries created the 40 hour work dating back to the 1800's (even earlier in some places) long before Ford adopted it.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

So you are trying to say Soros is not big business? BS.

 

[pilotyip]

Just, in case you haven't figured it out, not all republicans are anti-union. Or are you trying to divide the group? And wasn't it Ford and mass production that lead to the 40 hour work week?

It was also Ford who produced the middle class with his $5 a day wage. How a Ford worker could actually buy the car he built. Ford was also one of the first with equal pay for men and women. He also stood up to the UAW when Ford was organized in 1941 and said he would not fire all of the black employees as the union requested.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Thanks YIP. Some people enjoy their revisionist history. And Just how well has the middle class been doing the last 5 years? ....

 

[jonjuan]

Thanks YIP. Some people enjoy their revisionist history. And Just how well has the middle class been doing the last 5 years? ....

If they have been saving, investing, and not running up huge credit card debt, then they have been doing great the past 5 years. However, go swing by the local Best Buy, mall, Red Lobster, or Olive Garden and you'll see that many haven't been doing this. You could give everyone a year off of taxes and it would most likely get thrown away versus saving for the future.

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Thanks YIP. Some people enjoy their revisionist history. And Just how well has the middle class been doing the last 5 years? ....

Speaking of revisionist history, it is well known that Henry Ford was an anti-Semite and sponsored the anti-Semitic publishing in the Dearborn Independent. Others who read the works would go on to commit on a mass level some of the most heinous crimes possible against other human beings.

In any case, Henry Ford is not generally considered to be a Robber Baron so not sure of the point of bringing him into the debate.

.......And wasn't it Ford and mass production that lead to the 40 hour work week?

The answer to the question is no. Ford implemented what was already in play and had been fought for by labor dating back to the early 1800s in other parts of the world. The Industrial Revolution in Europe lead to the 40 hour work week. Miners in this country were already fighting hard for 40 hours, safer working conditions, and humanistic job rules and pay long before Ford came into the picture.

So you are trying to say Soros is not big business? BS.

Who said anything about George Soros? But now that you mention him, he was a Hungarian Jew who escaped the Nazis (some of whom were inspired by the writings in the Dearborn Independent) in WWII and went on to be a very "successful" business man. Love to hear the dinner conversation between George Soros and Henry Ford.

 

[acaTerry]

If they have been saving, investing, and not running up huge credit card debt, then they have been doing great the past 5 years. However, go swing by the local Best Buy, mall, Red Lobster, or Olive Garden and you'll see that many haven't been doing this. You could give everyone a year off of taxes and it would most likely get thrown away versus saving for the future.

So just where is the "saving for the future" coming from taxing us? You know darned well that you and I will never see a dime of the SSI we are paying into. Why do you left wing nutjobs never expect the illegals and bums to work hard and save, but you have no problem telling us that we who work have no right to decide how we spend our money that we earn? I'll tell you why, so you can take it from us, give it to all those squatters, and then make yourselves look like the good guy and keep those votes coming. Democrats are always willing to give away what is not theirs. Demonize the worker and praise the sloth. Punish someone for working hard and doing something, and reward the lazy and illegal. You guys just kill me.

 

[pilotyip]

Speaking of revisionist history, it is well known that Henry Ford was an anti-Semite and sponsored the anti-Semitic publishing in the Dearborn Independent. Others who read the works would go on to commit on a mass level some of the most heinous crimes possible against other human beings.

Who said anything about George Soros? But now that you mention him, he was a Hungarian Jew who escaped the Nazis (some of whom were inspired by the writings in the Dearborn Independent) in WWII and went on to be a very "successful" business man. Love to hear the dinner conversation between George Soros and Henry Ford.

Henry Ford didn't really write those article, he was not writer, he had a editor write them for him, but he approved of the articles. But he did his job of destroying hte Nazis by building a factory at Willow Run (KYIP) that would produce a 4 engine B-24 Bomber an hour. Ford was a simple man, who lived modestly, and he let great mechanics bring innovation to his comany.. The gaints of the industry in Sorensen and Knudsen pushed Ford to the forefront.

 

[G4dude]

What purpose?

Who did the Union think would be influenced by the ad, and how would it change the readers' minds? Just curious. Also, did the Union think it would be advantageous to us for our Owners to read it?

 

[jetlag7]

Who did the Union think would be influenced by the ad, and how would it change the readers' minds? Just curious. Also, did the Union think it would be advantageous to us for our Owners to read it?

These topics have been discussed ad nauseam on the NJASAP board....

 

[ghostrider64]

Netjets management was absolutely influenced by the ad...

Anyone who fails to understand this fact, needs to pull their head out of the sand.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Hi YIP, and once again you hit the nail on the head. Some are just tone deaf.

 

[rajflyboy]

Who did the Union think would be influenced by the ad, and how would it change the readers' minds? Just curious. Also, did the Union think it would be advantageous to us for our Owners to read it?

Gwiz

that explains this post

but this ad was geared was part of negotiations moving forward

just as pilots have been told they must give back in all areas of the contract

now the pilots fight back and make the message clear for all to see

 

[G4dude]

Gwiz

that explains this post

but this ad was geared was part of negotiations moving forward

just as pilots have been told they must give back in all areas of the contract

now the pilots fight back and make the message clear for all to see

I'm just curious why the Wall Street Journal. I can't figure out which WSJ readers would help us fight management.