Today's Wallstreet Journal, page B3...Union Strong

[T-1GUY]

Hide in those shadows G4. It shows real backbone.

 

[G4dude]

Hide in those shadows G4. It shows real backbone.

I and others like me should not have to show backbone to disagree with the union version of things. We should be able to debate without having to show backbone. You don't have to show "backbone" to disagree with me, but I do have to "show backbone" to disagree with your side. Don't y'all get it?

 

[G4dude]

Sorry, let me alter the "hyperbole" to better fit.

It is the fight for our livelihoods.

And it IS a winner take all. This next CBA will decide if Netjets is just another crappy job, or a great career stop.

This EMT is hellbent on reducing our compensation package, our QOL at work, and even our very job satisfaction.

It will be a hard enough fight to maintain what we already have, and an absolute street brawl to make improvements. The EMT will get nastier, and we'll have to do the same if we hope to have any chance.

I'm not sure why you think our fate rests in the hands of a mediator. A mediator has NO POWER to force either side to agree to anything. If I'm wrong about that, please point out where. The only REAL power the NMB has to affect our negotiations is the ability to release us to self help. But the NMB will ultimately be deciding exactly nothing for us or the company.

The best compensated jobs in aviation all have had their moments where they made a very large leap in their contracts. They had to go the distance and were not worked out through reasonable mediated efforts where ultimately both sides just talked it out and met in the middle. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I believe this is OUR moment to make that leap. I've been here almost 18 years, and this time around just FEELS like this is the one.

This IS winner takes all. Either the EMT will get what they want, or we will. The first one to blink is going to get run over. I don't see a lot of middle ground here. Maybe if the EMT had been at least respecting us and treating us better all along, I might agree with you more. But they've openly attacked us using some pretty awful intimidation techniques and games, and I'm seeing more and more angry pilots ready to go the distance. Some people I never would have expected it from. I'm seeing fewer and fewer pilots who will accept a mediocre CBA this time.

Only time will tell.

Good post. We all get a little hot from time to time. Your points are valid, but I am worried we will price our employer out of the marketplace. If we lost our jobs, that would be a bad thing, right? The Dude is a little uneasy.

 

[G4dude]

Hide in those shadows G4. It shows real backbone.

I disagree with Gutshotdraw about union issues, but I don't have to have a "backbone" to do so. He is great to fly and travel with, and can discuss the most contentious issues with courtesy and respect. I wish more pilots were like him. Then pilots like me would not need to "show backbone."

 

[pilotyip]

I am worried we will price our employer out of the marketplace. If we lost our jobs, that would be a bad thing, right? The Dude is a little uneasy.

But you don't have to worry because unions never put companies out of business. But Hey, if things don't work out there JUS is always hiring. This might bring out some more name calling

 

[BentOver]

YIP sucks..

There ya have it..

And yes, I don't give a flying Fvck how immature it sounds....

Notice how YIP doesn't post his drivel on the Majors board... Wonder why that is? Could it be because places like the fractional, corporate, and cargo boards are the only places he may get 1 outta 100 agreeing with him.

 

[T-1GUY]

G4 your argument is so incredibly weak. If you believe in your position, you should have the backbone to stand up in the light and say so. If someone disagrees with you, so be it. It's called conviction. It's called leadership.

 

[pilotyip]

YIP sucks..

There ya have it..

And yes, I don't give a flying Fvck how immature it sounds....

Notice how YIP doesn't post his drivel on the Majors board... Wonder why that is? Could it be because places like the fractional, corporate, and cargo boards are the only places he may get 1 outta 100 agreeing with him.

You are funny I post you respond like Povlofs dog. But instead of saying bow wow, you say" yip sucks". But after last night, nothing could unmake my happiness at way the GOP stomped the libs

 

[Willy21]

Your points are valid, but I am worried we will price our employer out of the marketplace. If we lost our jobs, that would be a bad thing, right? The Dude is a little uneasy.

A 7/7 schedule year 9 CE-680 sic makes about $36/duty hour. ($79,000/182 = $434/day $434/12 = $36.17/hour) In 2006 on year 3 at ASA I made $37/hr. The sovereign pilot has a lot more duties and responsibilities than the RJ pilot.

I think it is safe to say our employer is pricing us out of the market due to his poor decisions and obsession with an unrealistic 4-6% return on revenue.

 

[dime line]

But you don't have to worry because unions never put companies out of business. But Hey, if things don't work out there JUS is always hiring. This might bring out some more name calling

and we all know management has never put a company out of business.

 

[pilotyip]

and we all know management has never put a company out of business.

so it sounds like you agree both managment and unions can put companies out of business.

From 2005 WSJ, about a union puting a company out of buusiness.

In 1994 the UAW pushed GM into a deal it knew it could most likely not fulfill. It gave unlimited medical and COLA to retirees. GM knew a lengthy strike might drive them into BK. They had exhausted the equity markets, and borrowing was the only solution. Much like living off your credit cards. So they bet on maybe things would work, but they knew in the end they were in trouble. The power of a potential union strike drove them to make a bad management decision.

As they lost market share to foreign rivals, Detroit's auto makers and the UAW lost the power to set standards on labor costs. Yet during the prosperous 1990s, they seemed reluctant to accept the fact that their business model -- with its expensive defined-benefit health and pension programs -- was driving the domestic industry toward ruin. The UAW and its biggest employer have effectively conceded that their golden age of dominance is over.

GM executives consistently acknowledged that it couldn't be competitive in North America without a fundamental change in its labor-cost structure.

The UAW got a harsh lesson in the consequences of bankruptcy proceedings when former GM parts unit Delphi Corp. sought Chapter 11 protection in 2005, and pushed through substantial job and wage cuts under a deal subsidized by GM.

GM's obligation to provide health care for 412,356 union members, retirees and surviving spouses lies at the heart of yesterday's agreement. Even after a partial overhaul of retiree health-care benefits in 2005, GM still faced a $51 billion obligation to UAW members. Health-care obligations added more than $1,900 to the cost of every GM vehicle sold in the U.S. in 2006, a heavy burden given that many GM vehicles sold for less than competing Toyota vehicles.

 

[ghostrider64]

and we all know management has never put a company out of business.

I believe you may have meant "Mismanagement"..

 

[dime line]

so it sounds like you agree both managment and unions can put companies out of business.

From 2005 WSJ, about a union puting a company out of buusiness.

In 1994 the UAW pushed GM into a deal it knew it could most likely not fulfill. It gave unlimited medical and COLA to retirees. GM knew a lengthy strike might drive them into BK. They had exhausted the equity markets, and borrowing was the only solution. Much like living off your credit cards. So they bet on maybe things would work, but they knew in the end they were in trouble. The power of a potential union strike drove them to make a bad management decision.

As they lost market share to foreign rivals, Detroit's auto makers and the UAW lost the power to set standards on labor costs. Yet during the prosperous 1990s, they seemed reluctant to accept the fact that their business model -- with its expensive defined-benefit health and pension programs -- was driving the domestic industry toward ruin. The UAW and its biggest employer have effectively conceded that their golden age of dominance is over.

GM executives consistently acknowledged that it couldn't be competitive in North America without a fundamental change in its labor-cost structure.

The UAW got a harsh lesson in the consequences of bankruptcy proceedings when former GM parts unit Delphi Corp. sought Chapter 11 protection in 2005, and pushed through substantial job and wage cuts under a deal subsidized by GM.

GM's obligation to provide health care for 412,356 union members, retirees and surviving spouses lies at the heart of yesterday's agreement. Even after a partial overhaul of retiree health-care benefits in 2005, GM still faced a $51 billion obligation to UAW members. Health-care obligations added more than $1,900 to the cost of every GM vehicle sold in the U.S. in 2006, a heavy burden given that many GM vehicles sold for less than competing Toyota vehicles.

In a series of stunning events, Mr. Carty's career began to crumble on the night of April 15, when American made a filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission that disclosed that the company had decided last March to give seven executives cash bonuses equal to up to twice their base salaries if they stayed until January 2005. Based on his salary of $811,000 in 2002, Mr. Carty's bonus would have been more than $1.6 million. The same filing also showed that American had made a $41 million pretax payment last October into a trust fund set up to protect the pensions of 45 executives if the company went into bankruptcy.
The unionized workers, who had just finished voting to accept the concessions, became infuriated after learning about the arrangements in news reports on April 17. Not only had American given out what the workers viewed as lavish perks at a time when the airline was asking them for cutbacks, but it appeared to them that Mr. Carty had delayed the securities filing by at least two weeks to hide information that might jeopardize the votes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/25/business/under-fire-for-perks-chief-quits-american-airlines.html

I never said Unions are perfect

 

[G4dude]

G4 your argument is so incredibly weak. If you believe in your position, you should have the backbone to stand up in the light and say so. If someone disagrees with you, so be it. It's called conviction. It's called leadership.

...sigh...

 

[pilotyip]

...sigh...

your are going to get that here unless you are 100% pro union use the nuclear option and 100% anti-management. Being content is not allowed, you must be unhappy in order to belong to the 'brother hood" From a former ALPA, Teamsters guy. Now all that being said the NJ CEO looks like a bad guy.

 

[G4dude]

your are going to get that here unless you are 100% pro union use the nuclear option and 100% anti-management. Being content is not allowed, you must be unhappy in order to belong to the 'brother hood" From a former ALPA, Teamsters guy. Now all that being said the NJ CEO looks like a bad guy.

Yeah, I am quite concerned about NJA upper management. The department managers need to go, Hansell should go, fire all the lawyers and accountants who think they can run a world class boutique service company to the ultra wealthy. And pay the flight attendants more and give them individual and group kudos when they do an outstanding job. AND, pay senior GV captains a LOT more. Juuusssst kidding on that last item.

 

[Pervis]

your are going to get that here unless you are 100% pro union use the nuclear option and 100% anti-management. Being content is not allowed, you must be unhappy in order to belong to the 'brother hood" From a former ALPA, Teamsters guy. Now all that being said the NJ CEO looks like a bad guy.

Yip, no question some come across as more agressive than others in union matters, but your assessment here is way off. At least with the unions at NJA. People are trying to educate those who live in fear of any action their management threatens. Even when those threats are so far fetched and unlikely as to be laughable. However, after the dust settles, those same people have no trouble enjoying the gains those willing to fight for achieve.

We are not being unreasonable, as some in our senior management portray. Some examples:

Management wants concessions across the board, and has refused to come to any compromise to date. These include reduction in compensation, increased employee contribution to the cost of healthcare (our current deductibles and copays are indeed contribution), agreement from union employees to not cross other union picket lines, reduction in earned sick days, degraded after midnight language, zero COLA, and other unreasonable demands in a time of record profits.

Our third quarter results are in. In spite of huge increases in the use of vendor aircraft and the purchase of new equipment, our profits rose by 8% while our debt has been slashed. Additionally, management wants to lower our fees so lower level millionaires can afford us by taking from those that can least afford it. In other words, they want us to subsidize the uber rich.

Management insults employees to their faces. Ask the FAs, or the guy that was insulted in SAV because he has been with us for 35 years and clearly has no ambition. Dedication means nothing to people like our senior managers.

Management considers us part time employees, in spite of 80+ hours of duty in a tour, not to mention separation from home and family 24/7 for that tour.

Management directs HR staff to perpetuate the lie that the Cadillac Plan tax burden from the ACA will cost the company huge sums of money. We don't come near the threashold for said taxes.

Management uses intimidation, coersion, threats, insults, reprisals and any means they see fit to destroy morale and unity in all groups employed by NJA, union or not.

Pilots are being called and asked about why they fatigued, in spilte of our "no harm no foul, best policy in the industry" claims. A simple review of the schedule, or a look at the required URP report would speak volumes. The calls are simply an intimidation tactic.

Pilots are being questioned about mx issues discovered during pre and post flight. Again in an attempt to intimidate pilots into flying broken aircraft.

We have a hostage situation ongoing, and while some think those terminated must have deserved it, we have won every arbitration case to date. Why do you think they postponed the last two cases already agreed to and scheduled?

Working conditions have reached the level of a hostile working environment under any definition of the term. This is not very bright considering the effect on safety, much less efficiency.

Our goals are simply to be treated with the respect we have earned while building this company and to be well compensated for those efforts. We do, after all, safely and efficiently carry the wealthiest and most powerful people on the planet. Not unreasonable at all, and requires resolve on our part to make it happen.

 

[pilotyip]

Yip, no question some come across as more agressive than others in union matters, but your assessment here is way off. At least with the unions at NJA. People are trying to educate those who live in fear of any action their management threatens. Even when those threats are so far fetched and unlikely as to be laughable. However, after the dust settles, those same people have no trouble enjoying the gains those willing to fight for achieve.

We are not being unreasonable, as some in our senior management portray. Some examples:

Management wants concessions across the board, and has refused to come to any compromise to date. These include reduction in compensation, increased employee contribution to the cost of healthcare (our current deductibles and copays are indeed contribution), agreement from union employees to not cross other union picket lines, reduction in earned sick days, degraded after midnight language, zero COLA, and other unreasonable demands in a time of record profits.

Our third quarter results are in. In spite of huge increases in the use of vendor aircraft and the purchase of new equipment, our profits rose by 8% while our debt has been slashed. Additionally, management wants to lower our fees so lower level millionaires can afford us by taking from those that can least afford it. In other words, they want us to subsidize the uber rich.

Management insults employees to their faces. Ask the FAs, or the guy that was insulted in SAV because he has been with us for 35 years and clearly has no ambition. Dedication means nothing to people like our senior managers.

Management considers us part time employees, in spite of 80+ hours of duty in a tour, not to mention separation from home and family 24/7 for that tour.

Management directs HR staff to perpetuate the lie that the Cadillac Plan tax burden from the ACA will cost the company huge sums of money. We don't come near the threashold for said taxes.

Management uses intimidation, coersion, threats, insults, reprisals and any means they see fit to destroy morale and unity in all groups employed by NJA, union or not.

Pilots are being called and asked about why they fatigued, in spilte of our "no harm no foul, best policy in the industry" claims. A simple review of the schedule, or a look at the required URP report would speak volumes. The calls are simply an intimidation tactic.

Pilots are being questioned about mx issues discovered during pre and post flight. Again in an attempt to intimidate pilots into flying broken aircraft.

We have a hostage situation ongoing, and while some think those terminated must have deserved it, we have won every arbitration case to date. Why do you think they postponed the last two cases already agreed to and scheduled?

Working conditions have reached the level of a hostile working environment under any definition of the term. This is not very bright considering the effect on safety, much less efficiency.

Our goals are simply to be treated with the respect we have earned while building this company and to be well compensated for those efforts. We do, after all, safely and efficiently carry the wealthiest and most powerful people on the planet. Not unreasonable at all, and requires resolve on our part to make it happen.

I understand you have concerns with management, and I would be concerned if I worked there, but many here would like to burn the place down. Others may not feel that way, but when someone is not in the burn it to ground mode they are insulated, called names and over things that you find from Union die hards. Some people just don't like to be around those people. I truly wish you ther best

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

"...........We have a hostage situation ongoing, and while some think those terminated must have deserved it, we have won every arbitration case to date. Why do you think they postponed the last two cases already agreed to and scheduled?..........

The union has not won every arbitration to date. Crewfood dude did not get his job back. They also lost a pilot termination court case that never made it to arbitration. Other cases involving CBA interpretations have been lost.

They terminees are considered hostages by the EBoard, thereby implying they were unjustly disciplined or terminated without just cause. Since they won't/can't provide the details of the terminations it is up to you to trust the EBoard in making that call. Tread carefully here without a legal opinion independent of company-Union politics.

 

[jetlag7]

The union has not won every arbitration to date. Crewfood dude did not get his job back. They also lost a pilot termination court case that never made it to arbitration. Other cases involving CBA interpretations have been lost.

"Crewfood dude" was several years ago.... Pervis was referring to the 5 crewmembers terminated within the last year - you know the ones listed as "hostages" by the Eboard.....

Enjoying your little game of misdirection?