Today's Wallstreet Journal, page B3...Union Strong

[G4dude]

Bud,

We have already received Hansell's contract "offer." He calls it the Four Pillars. Did you read it?

It's a total non-starter but they have no incentive to actually negotiate in good faith unless we give them the incentive. Every day without a new contract is money saved in the company's pocket. Hence the ad campaign, the picketing, and the other union activities we're beginning to see.

It is all part of the process of negotiating a contract, especially one governed by the Railway Labor Act. I get that you haven't been down this road before. But l implore you to listen more closely to some of those that HAVE. My wife has a strike star on her ALPA wings because of a horrible, intransigent, arrogant CEO that cost his airline more in the two weeks of the strike than the union's contract proposal would have cost over the LIFETIME of the contract.

We have the exact same scenario developing here unless we get Uncle Warren to PAY ATTENTION. And yes, we need to embarrass Omaha. It is the ONLY way to get rid of Hansell and that is the only way to get this train back on the rails. If you can't recognize that, then I'm probably wasting bandwidth.

Maybe if we could get Billy Noe to actually do his job, including prevailing on Warren to sack Hansell, things would be ok.

 

[acaTerry]

G4,

Without saying too much...many things and many people have changed.

 

[G4dude]

G4,

Without saying too much...many things and many people have changed.

I'm guess so. What puzzles me is that the people I fly with are frustrated by CMH's incompetence, but I am not hearing anything like what Gutshotdraw and others are saying about mistreatment and plots to do bad things to us as a group. And I am not experiencing what Gutshot and others are saying either. In other words. I am not an observer from the outside, so why is what y'all are saying such a surprise to me? I fly the same planes and work for the same people. By the way, almost ALL companies are criticized by their motivated employees. We all think we have better ideas.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Simple question.

Did you read Hansell's "offer" that was rejected by the union?

 

[T-1GUY]

G4 you have your head in the sand. If you haven't noticed the changes, read the company positions, emails, and threats, you truly are detached from reality. You lose all credibility when you don't even take the time to be informed of what is going on at Netjets. I suggest you start by reading the companies four pillars. This is their position. The evil union did not create this offer. This was written by Jordan Hansell. He owns it.

 

[BentOver]

G4 you have your head in the sand. If you haven't noticed the changes, read the company positions, emails, and threats, you truly are detached from reality. You lose all credibility when you don't even take the time to be informed of what is going on at Netjets. I suggest you start by reading the companies four pillars. This is their position. The evil union did not create this offer. This was written by Jordan Hansell. He owns it.

I smell managements hand in his posts.... There is no way a pilot in this day and age, with any level of experience, can be this out of touch with their company and what is happening.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Actually, no. He's just a VERY conservative guy with an inherent distrust of unions. His work experience has always been in private aviation and he's never seen a management-union relationship up close before.

G4 really is a decent person with enough intellectual honesty to come on here, ask questions, and engage opposing viewpoints in a respectful manner. Getting through to him is proving a difficult task but hope springs eternal. He's nothing if not stubborn:smash:

He's right about one thing though. It's pretty much impossible to have an open, respectful dialogue on the echo chamber known as the union message board. Education, persuasion, and mutual respect quickly and predictably give way to name calling, browbeating, and derision. Not that FI is THAT much better.

And if anybody can't recognize THAT as being true, then you're sticking your head in the sand in much the same way as some accuse G4.

 

[G4dude]

Actually, no. He's just a VERY conservative guy with an inherent distrust of unions. His work experience has always been in private aviation and he's never seen a management-union relationship up close before.



G4 really is a decent person with enough intellectual honesty to come on here, ask questions, and engage opposing viewpoints in a respectful manner. Getting through to him is proving a difficult task but hope springs eternal. He's nothing if not stubborn:smash:

He's right about one thing though. It's pretty much impossible to have an open, respectful dialogue on the echo chamber known as the union message board. Education, persuasion, and mutual respect quickly and predictably give way to name calling, browbeating, and derision. Not that FI is THAT much better.

And if anybody can't recognize THAT as being true, then you're sticking your head in the sand in much the same way as some accuse G4.

Thanks! But stubborn? I hope not. Regarding the latest proposal from NJA, my view is that all this is part of the negotiation. They lowball, we counter with much higher numbers, back and forth, inching closer to a deal. Why get outraged in the middle of the process? They want us to fly for peanuts, we want to make a LOT of money. An agreement will be reached and we will THEN read it and vote it up or down.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Ah, but a Tentative Agreement won't even be reached UNLESS the union applies some pressure. THAT is why the picket this weekend, the ads in the WSJ, the stories in AIN, etc.

Jordy and company would be happy as clams to ride the status quo for, well, basically ever.

Three months ago, there was ZERO incentive for the company to negotiate. Now, there is. Even as loathe as they are to admit it.

 

[pilotyip]

Actually, no. He's just a VERY conservative guy with an inherent distrust of unions. His work experience has always been in private aviation and he's never seen a management-union relationship up close before.

G4 really is a decent person with enough intellectual honesty to come on here, ask questions, and engage opposing viewpoints in a respectful manner. Getting through to him is proving a difficult task but hope springs eternal. He's nothing if not stubborn:smash:

He's right about one thing though. It's pretty much impossible to have an open, respectful dialogue on the echo chamber known as the union message board. Education, persuasion, and mutual respect quickly and predictably give way to name calling, browbeating, and derision. Not that FI is THAT much better.

And if anybody can't recognize THAT as being true, then you're sticking your head in the sand in much the same way as some accuse G4.

An education program is moving G4 to your side much better than ranting, insults and name calling, which we seem to experience here on FI if you are not 100% pro-union nuclear option and 100% anti-management. If fact the biggest insult one can get here even worse than SCAB, is to be called a managment puke.

 

[gutshotdraw]

An education program is moving G4 to your side much better than ranting, insults and name calling, which we seem to experience here on FI if you are not 100% pro-union nuclear option and 100% anti-management. If fact the biggest insult one can get here even worse than SCAB, is to be called a managment puke.

I believe the term was "management stooge." And I've been called that, too.

It's akin to being called a racist in the world of politics. A truly heinous label, nearly impossible to refute without appearing desperate, and always hurled by someone unable to win the argument on the merits.

 

[acaTerry]

I believe the term was "management stooge." And I've been called that, too.

It's akin to being called a racist in the world of politics. A truly heinous label, nearly impossible to refute without appearing desperate, and always hurled by someone unable to win the argument on the merits.

Sounds racist to me.....racist!

 

[Downwind]

your are going to get that here unless you are 100% pro union use the nuclear option and 100% anti-management. Being content is not allowed, you must be unhappy in order to belong to the 'brother hood" From a former ALPA, Teamsters guy. Now all that being said the NJ CEO looks like a bad guy.

I'm not 100% union but they are the only ones looking out for me and my family at the moment. And I will support them. I will not subsidize Thurmond and Virginia Warbucks at the expense of my middle class family so that they can get to Martha's Vineyard for a few hundred bucks less. NJA is making records profits, paying down record debt, and ordering record numbers of airplanes. Flying is expensive. So is Cartier and Rolex. Either pay what it costs or try your luck at Billy Bob's 135. I've been there. Rolling rest, B.S. MX logs, and every other way to circumvent industry safety measures. NJA is a different standard. Either pay it or let's shut it down.

 

[G4dude]

I'm not 100% union but they are the only ones looking out for me and my family at the moment. And I will support them. I will not subsidize Thurmond and Virginia Warbucks at the expense of my middle class family so that they can get to Martha's Vineyard for a few hundred bucks less. NJA is making records profits, paying down record debt, and ordering record numbers of airplanes. Flying is expensive. So is Cartier and Rolex. Either pay what it costs or try your luck at Billy Bob's 135. I've been there. Rolling rest, B.S. MX logs, and every other way to circumvent industry safety measures. NJA is a different standard. Either pay it or let's shut it down.

I see no reason to take a pay cut, for sure. We are profitable. A big raise would worry me. A small raise sounds about right. Getting angry when the offer isn't even written yet? Seems needlessly dramatic. Lets wait til we see what the Union Negotiating Committee gets us to vote on. Its their job to do the very hard work and to absorb the ignominy of the lowball tactics along the way.

 

[G4dude]

Sounds racist to me.....racist![/QUOTE

Same mindset! Although, I think the Union enthuriasts are sincere when they think people like me are management pukes. Still makes them wrong and rude. One thing more I am curious about: do the Bentovers of the world never fly with people who think like me? I do most of the time. Rarely am I with someone who thinks we should strike or shut it down, or thinks I am nuts for not being apoplectic at Jordy about the lowball negotiating offers.

 

[pilotyip]

I'm not 100% union but they are the only ones looking out for me and my family at the moment. And I will support them. I will not subsidize Thurmond and Virginia Warbucks at the expense of my middle class family so that they can get to Martha's Vineyard for a few hundred bucks less. NJA is making records profits, paying down record debt, and ordering record numbers of airplanes. Flying is expensive. So is Cartier and Rolex. Either pay what it costs or try your luck at Billy Bob's 135. I've been there. Rolling rest, B.S. MX logs, and every other way to circumvent industry safety measures. NJA is a different standard. Either pay it or let's shut it down.

Thank you for your kind response, no name calling or such. But are you willing to shut the place down if you do not get what you want? So you can go back to the "Billy Bob's 135".

 

[JustPlaneTruth]

Thank you for your kind response, no name calling or such. But are you willing to shut the place down if you do not get what you want? So you can go back to the "Billy Bob's 135".

There are two ways to look at this. The question that can also be asked of Mr Buffet is "are you willing to shut down NetJets if you/Mr. Hansell don't get your way?" The reality is that BH will sell NJ off long before doors get closed so the discussion is a red herring.

Pretty sad to see the once mighty NJ culture being destroyed by leadership who really has no idea what the Company culture brought to product delivery.

 

[acaTerry]

Same mindset! Although, I think the Union enthuriasts are sincere when they think people like me are management pukes. Still makes them wrong and rude. One thing more I am curious about: do the Bentovers of the world never fly with people who think like me? I do most of the time. Rarely am I with someone who thinks we should strike or shut it down, or thinks I am nuts for not being apoplectic at Jordy about the lowball negotiating offers.

PM sent. Hopefully we'll fly again soon we can talk more then.

 

[G4dude]

PM sent. Hopefully we'll fly again soon we can talk more then.

I lok forward to that.

 

[gunfyter]

Thanks! But stubborn? I hope not. Regarding the latest proposal from NJA, my view is that all this is part of the negotiation. They lowball, we counter with much higher numbers, back and forth, inching closer to a deal. Why get outraged in the middle of the process? They want us to fly for peanuts, we want to make a LOT of money. An agreement will be reached and we will THEN read it and vote it up or down.

You are correct it is all part of the unfortunate game/process.

Something is ignored by most Libertarians or at least those who despise labor unions. Management also combines or unionizes in order to keep wages low. Managements have a natural advantage.

Capitalist hero Adam Smith in Wealth of Nations book 1 chapter 8:

What are the common wages of labour, depends every where upon the contract usually made between those two parties, whose interests are by no means the same. The workmen desire to get as much, the masters to give as little as possible. The former are disposed to combine in order to raise, the latter in order to lower the wages of labour.

Combine means UNION
Smith continues:

"It is not, however, difficult to foresee which of the two parties must, upon all ordinary occasions, have the advantage in the dispute, and force the other into a compliance with their terms. The masters, being fewer in number, can combine much more easily; and the law, besides, authorises, or at least does not prohibit their combinations,*10 while it prohibits those of the workmen...."

All here

Smith: Wealth of Nations, Book I, Chapters 8-9 | Library of Economics and Liberty
www.econlib.org

We always hear complaints about labor union tactics... But one of the "gods of Capitalism" says it plainly here:

"We rarely hear, it has been said, of the combinations of masters, though frequently of those of workmen. But whoever imagines, upon this account, that masters rarely combine, is as ignorant of the world as of the subject. Masters are always and every where in a sort of tacit, but constant and uniform combination, not to raise the wages of labour above their actual rate...."